 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: RachelB4
Date: 2012-07-20 13:20
I know this could be an extensive topic.. but I do need help here.
I've been in the dilemma of knowing which side of the reed is weaker.. but not able to fix it correctly. My teacher has given me some tips and I've read up in some books and online as to how to balance them, but rarely do I get anything to work. -- typically I look for the thicker strain or the spot where i cant see my fingernail clearly under the tip of the reed, and work on there..
So I'm wondering if you all have any tips as to where to scrape or what to do. what do you all personally do? I may be missing something obvious or maybe I just dont have luck..
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Author: rtmyth
Date: 2012-07-20 13:31
Lots of help out there. One of the most useful to me was "Romancing the Reed" published in The Clarinet, in two sections, about 20 years ago. Ridenour has some advice in his book too.
richard smith
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Author: LJBraaten
Date: 2012-07-20 13:57
eddie's page has been very helpful for me. Also, Rico has a good youtube video about the topic. Basically it advocates playing (tipping) the mouthpiece on one side of the mouth and then the other. Then adjust reed on the side that plays with more resistance. I combine this with Pino's advice to thin the lower edge of the reed for lower notes, middle for middle register, etc. For the higher register see the diagram on eddie's website.
Edit: Pino claims that with today's poorly cured reed cane, that holding up a reed to the light is not always an accurate way to judge thickness for trimming purposes.
.
Laurie
Laurie (he/him)
Post Edited (2012-07-20 15:05)
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Author: vljenewein
Date: 2012-07-20 14:23
I bought Ridenours ATG reed finishing system. Worth every penny! Center the reed on the mouthpiece and blow on one side of your mouth then the other side. Twist the clarinet so that the blowing is more concentrated on LEFT and then RIGHT and then CENTER. Tom Ridenour explains is in his system. Here is link to youtube video about it. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r5d77k6FENQ Then just look around for other links in youtube for Ridenounr reed blalancing. It is absolutely amazing. get 10 out of 10 reads very fine playable. I went from a learner-squeaker to playing it very well with no squeaks at all!! Tom Ridenour is known as billyboy647 on You Tube. GREAT!!
Vernon
Jenewein Duduks Manufacturing & Research
www.duduk.us American made Duduks
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Author: DrewSorensenMusic
Date: 2012-07-20 14:31
Hi Rachel,
I'm in Philadelphia as well. South Philly. Are you working, in school, full time musician or music appreciator? I'm a freelancer, currently working at the newly renovated Bucks County Playhouse's version of "A Grand Night For Singing", Alto, Clarinet, Flute, Picc.
Ok, on to your topic. You sound like you're able to understand a little bit of what's happening when the reed is unbalanced. Some other techniques you may want to try would be backlighting the reed, and the darker area is the thicker area. Also, you can bend the reed over a sensitive part of your finger or hand, and you will be able to feel which side presses more firmly against you.
When you distinguish which is the offending area, you will need to lightly remove cane from that area until the reed is balanced. I suggest wet or dry sand paper at a grit around 240 or 320 (or somewhere in there, I forget the numbers). You can also use a double hollow ground knife. I'd steer clear of bevel or wedge knives, as they are a pretty aggressive blade, and you want to lightly remove cane, not cut a hole in the bark.
You can use the finger technique at different areas down the face of the reed, not just the tip. This way you can come to know how far down you will need to scrape. Practice makes perfect, just like any skill, so know that after time you will come to understand more than you do now.
Good luck,
Drew S.
http://www.youtube.com/user/DrewSorensenMusic
Saxes, Flutes, Clarinets, Oboe, Recorder, Folk Wind Instruments
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Author: Ed
Date: 2012-07-20 14:45
If you look for Henry Larsen's book on the Rose 32 Etudes, he also included articles he wrote for the Clarinet magazine on reeds. They are excellent resources with a lot of great info. Knowing exactly what point of the reed to adjust is key and he give some great info.
http://www.vcisinc.com/clarinet.htm/
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Author: vljenewein
Date: 2012-07-20 14:50
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r5d77k6FENQ Great video if the link above didn't work.
Tom really shows that even a new beginner can make reed balanced in a matter of seconds. Since I am a new player, never balanced reeds, I gave it a shot and it is really very simple and I get the reeds to play very well EACH one of them after just a little time with his system. He has a special pad that the no-load sandpaper goes on and supplies extra, so you have plenty of useable material for many years. You'll wonder how you ever got by without it!
Vernon
Jenewein Duduks Manufacturing & Research
www.duduk.us American made Duduks
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Author: kdk ★2017
Date: 2012-07-20 15:29
I think the most important lesson I ever learned - and it took me years to really understand it - came from an article I read in The Clarinet years ago (I think it was by Roger Salander). Among other things, he said the most important thing is not to leave boundaries in the vibrating area. Everything needs to blend smoothly so the reed isn't encouraged to vibrate in sections. It seems intuitive that unresponsiveness, squeaks and chirps, and extraneous noise can all result when some part of the reed doesn't move with the rest.
So in practical terms, when you remove material, wherever you work, smooth the area you're thinning into the areas surrounding it. That's one of the big advantages of ATG in my opinion - it doesn't *let* you gouge tracks or cause sharp edges in the vamp area. What you need to be careful of with ATG is not to take so much out of the tip (because every stroke travels over it) that you collapse it while there is still too much wood elsewhere farther back along one of the rail areas. Working from the middle toward the tip with sandpaper, a knife or rush (which is what ATG is specifically designed to defeat) gives you an easier chance to work farther back without continuously thinning the tip area in the process. Sometimes the tip is too stiff and sometimes it isn't.
Karl
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Author: RachelB4
Date: 2012-07-20 22:44
Thanks for the suggestions. I already did have an understanding of how to figure out which side isn't balanced (that's the easy part) where I blow each side of the reed very very lightly to see which side has trouble vibrating under the least amount of air. It's just once I narrow it down to the one side --which btw almost always seems to be the right side..-- I have a really hard time finding exactly where needs to be scraped, because I'll think I know where the thick area is, scrape it, and then I end up making no difference when I try blowing the read again.
But thanks so much for these ideas, they will definitely help.
@drew- technically I live in South Jersey, but when I wrote that post, I was in Philly where I do chamber music things (i was at Kimmel Center if you know where that is). HS student.
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Author: vljenewein
Date: 2012-07-20 22:52
Rachel,
You said" ..-- I have a really hard time finding exactly where needs to be scraped, because I'll think I know where the thick area is, scrape it, and then I end up making no difference when I try blowing the read again."
You really ought to look at the video. I have seen it done blindfolded. He (Tom) spent about 20 years figuring out how to safely and easily balance a reed and shows it so ANYONE can do it easily. Just look at the link above and see. Don''t scrape it, just follow his method and it's done in a matter of seconds!
Vernon
Jenewein Duduks Manufacturing & Research
www.duduk.us American made Duduks
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Author: Bob Bernardo
Date: 2012-07-21 05:14
Well I'm pretty technical with reeds, I made a metal measuring device that can measure any part of a reed with a caliper that works in thousands of an inch. Really cool.
When I designed the Grand Concert reeds the right side of the reeds at the back of the reeds, close to the bark the right side of the reeds were to be .003" lighter, thinner than the left side. Well why did I do this?
Here's the reason. If the reeds are totally even well the grain can cause the reeds not to vibrate correctly. Yes I know, some of you or all of you think I'm nuts! Maybe, maybe not. This has a lot to do with your lips. One side of your lip is stronger then the other, because of the way you hold the clarinet. The air flow is also different, not even from one side to the other. Well I found this out by the late Herman Hanson. He was at Rico for 42 years. I was his replacement. Well I actually disagreed with him until we made several cuts of reeds using assorted measments. Well the best reeds were the ones that were ever so slightly thinner on the right side. We had Mitchell Lurie play test some of the assorted reeds that were cut differently. Well out of 30 assorted reeds Mitchell picked out almost every reed that was lighter. He missed 2 out of the 30 that were cut lighter on the right side. This was a blind test. He had no idea what the test was about. WOW Did I ever learn something special. I did the same test and guess what, the right sides of the reeds were much better. The the late Joe Spang, the sax reed designer, had the same results. Joe and I were partners and able to play any reed made.
A lot of people, actually most people take too much shavings off of the reed. Once you shave the reed at the wrong place well you can clip the reed and start over. Or you can try adjusting starting from the back of the reed on the right side. Remember .002" is the thickness of an average human hair. Thats how much you should shave the reed when adjusting your reeds.
These reeds, Mitchell Luries and the Grand Concerts shouldn't require very much adjustments. If the reed is too hard, try very slightly adjusting the back to the middle of the reeds, the sides. If the reed is still too hard I slightly push down the back of the reeds at the center of the reed. This will relax the fibers, it won't break them just soften them. Make sure the reeds are wet before doing this.
Finally, don't take any wood off of the spine of the reed. All of the support will become a totally different strength. You will be taking a 4 strength reed down to a 2 strength or less, depending on that reed knife. .001" in the spine will change the strength of the reed. Thats the thickness of a very light blond hair. Again - WOW!
Look up Lee Morgan, he talks about reeds. He never takes wood out of the spine. What a beautiful sound he has.
Well I'm sure lots of people are confused and probably think I'm nuts! Well thats good. From experimenting on your own you will understand how to adjust reeds. I am not saying every reed out of the box will play, but I can promise your success rate will sky rocket. Also remember the box of reeds you get totally depends of the cane quality, thus the reason why cane can such or be your best friend.
Hope this helps everyone. Notice I didn't bash anyone that has written or has come up with special devices to make reeds play better. Such as the reed adjuster that Tom Ridinour has. This is simply how I made about 14 million clarinet reeds a year from 1982 to 1999. If we count sax reeds well you can almost double this. When I left Rico one million Mitchell Lurie reeds were sold each year. When I started at Rico Mitchell's count per year was much less. Together we created slightly harder spines. and needless to say by the count, people turned to the Mitchell Lurie reeds and due to the spine of the Grand Concert reeds people also really liked the GC. reeds. For me the thick GC reeds played really well with my setup.
Since Joe Spang, Mitchell Lurie, and myself are gone, who knows if the reeds are cut right. I sure hope so. If not buy a digital caliper or email me for advice and I'll get you a good one for $30. I know the replacement musician players weren't at the same caliber as Joe, Mitchell, and myself, so I'm not sure how the reeds play now. Probably just a of them have college degrees. I won't buy any or test any, although I'm on good terms with Rico. If they pay me to test the reeds I will, but I won't play them. Same with there new mouthpieces. Who knows if the rubber or the plastic is safe. The companies do not say their product is 100 percent safe. So folks be careful. I suffer everyday from the poisons, pesticides, assorted gas products, and methyl bromide. These are just a few chemicals they use. Even though I keep bashing Rico notice they've never sued me, because these are true facts.
I've measured a lot of Vandoren reeds. The 56 reeds are wicked. What a joy it is to play on them. Yes the right side sometimes needs adjusting.
Hope this helps everyone. Good luck!
Designer of - Vintage 1940 Cicero Mouthpieces and the La Vecchia mouthpieces
Yamaha Artist 2015
Post Edited (2012-07-21 05:19)
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Author: donald
Date: 2012-07-21 07:57
Find and reed the Larsen article mentioned above, even if the method he suggests is only one method (out of several different approaches that all work to some extent) that article will give you a really great understanding of what's going on...
- Doing his tests and understanding what they tell you about the reed is GREAT, but (advice from Tom Ridenour when he gave me a reed adjusting lesson) make sure you are not "blasting" when you blow on the different sides of the reed... just blow a gentle puff so you can really tell how much "energy" is required to make the reed vibrate, and thus compare the sides.
- re lights/visual cues here is a suggestion that sounds a bit mad (or nerdy) but actually often works very well....
.... rather than looking at light as it shines THROUGH the reed, which MAY tell you about density but also might not, shine light ACROSS the reed. As an example- in a dark room, have only a small desk lamp on, these tend to have more "directional" light... hold the reed so the light is shining across the vamp, and you can see a shadow of the "spinal hump" (Beavis and Butthead moment there.... ok) and will also reveal any small bumps, places where the cutting tools have made a gouge or not blended well etc. After you start to get good at this you start to be able to find out a lot about a reed by LOOKING at it. Sometimes i've done adjustment just based on this visual inspection that have hardly taken anything off, but made huge improvement. Dave Etheridge taught me this technique (actually, the first time he adjusted a reed for me it was just from testing it this way, and the adjustment was so good i kept on laughing when i played the reed in lesson- it just felt SO GOOD to have this awesome vibrant reed after playing unbalanced reeds for years and years...).
dn
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Author: DrewSorensenMusic
Date: 2012-07-21 14:12
Interesting information above. I wounder if this is along the same lines, but I've taken to setup my clarinet reeds to the left and pushed out over the tip of the mouthpiece slightly. I play Grand Concert Select Thick Blanks, and I just feel like staggering the reed on the table of the mouthpiece ironically "centers" my tone. Maybe as it happens the reed should be slightly unbalance, because both sides of the reed should not vibrate the same. Maybe they could cancel each other out, kinda like when you play one tone, and the exact opposite tone, the two waves cancel each other out. I don't really have proof on the subject, just thinking.
@Rachel - I'm glad you're getting involved in music outside of your school. Have you entertained trying out for the All South Jersey Band ensembles? I would assume you would be highly sought after, considering your dedication to music. I performed in the All South Jersey Orchestra and Jazz Band (Alto Sax for both) and All State Big Band (Tenor Sax) when I was in high school, and it was a great program, especially since I came from a very small school with a dwindling music program (Sterling High School in Somerdale, NJ). Who is your band director and your private tutor? Music here is Philly is such a small world, I may know who they are, especially your private tutor.
Drew S.
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Author: kdk ★2017
Date: 2012-07-21 14:32
Bob Bernardo wrote:
> Here's the reason. If the reeds are totally even well the grain
> can cause the reeds not to vibrate correctly. Yes I know, some
> of you or all of you think I'm nuts! Maybe, maybe not. This has
> a lot to do with your lips. One side of your lip is stronger
> then the other, because of the way you hold the clarinet.
This is basically the same thing Bonade said, that Vandoren cut its reeds to be slightly heavier on the left (a different way of saying thinner on the right) to compensate for the slight rotational force of the right hand under the thumb rest, which would tend to press the left rail of the reed against the player's lips a little more. I think Vandoren always denied it. You've now confirmed that Luries actually *were* cut slightly differently from left to right.
One thing I realized only in the last few years, partly as a result of reading some of the posts here on the BB about reeds, is that reed strength is rated by the manufacturer according to the flexibility of the cane, not the reed's cut dimensions. Thin and stiff doesn't really vibrate the same way as thicker and soft, so removing cane from a reed that's really too stiff often fails to solve the basic problem of a too inflexible piece of cane (relative to the needs of the mouthpiece and player). This tends to argue against the practice of starting deliberately with a reed that's a shade too heavy and trimming it "from a #5 down to a #4.5." If a little adjustment of the balance doesn't do the trick, the reed may never play really comfortably.
Karl
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Author: Bob Bernardo
Date: 2012-07-21 17:28
Karl, I sort of agree about taking wood off of the heart, the spine of the reed. I call this the heart, because if you take too much off the reed well the reed sort of has a "Heart attack!". If adjusting the rails doesn't do the trick perhaps the operator that gauges the reeds made a mistake. People don't realize that these operators are cutting over 400 reeds per hour. About a reed less then every 6 seconds. Some machines are slower, because of the size of the reeds, such as the bari sax reeds are huge so 350 reeds per hour is about right.
Back to adjusting the heart. I would prefer you to push on the heart of the reed when it's on the mouthpiece, at the heart location about a 1/4 of an inch behind the tip. As said above this almost always works, freeing up the fibers instead of removing the fibers. Then play the reed or reeds and see if it is better. If so play the reed's for a few minutes a day, maybe 10 minutes if your lip can handle it. After a short time the reeds should break in nicely. If this doesn't work wll you may have gotten a miss gauged reed an about 6.4mm's or about o.252", a 1/4 of an inch, behind the reeds every so slightly, about 2 strokes of a reed knife take just a shade off the heart of the reeds. Play it and see what happens. Never mess with the tip of the reeds because the tips are only about .006". 2 human hairs thick. This can cause chirping. Same with the sides of the rails. Avoid the tip areas. Squeaks can happen. Then you have to clip the reed andstart over.
Drew, thank you for the info about Bonade. He of course was master so you surely can't argue with him. I was unaware about his thoughts.
Again I hope this helps the beginnings of reed adjustments.
Post Edited (2012-07-21 17:35)
Designer of - Vintage 1940 Cicero Mouthpieces and the La Vecchia mouthpieces
Yamaha Artist 2015
Post Edited (2012-07-22 11:13)
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Author: Ed Palanker
Date: 2012-07-22 01:11
Check out my website and read my reed pages. ESP eddiesclarinet.com
ESP eddiesclarinet.com
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Author: DrewSorensenMusic
Date: 2012-07-22 03:41
Bob,
Thanks for your praise. I just want to clarify that what I said previous was my own, and not as highly tested as what Bonade would have done. He is a legend. I'm just adding my own personal experience as per where I am on my musical journey.
Drew S.
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Author: vljenewein
Date: 2012-07-22 04:12
What website, Ed? I copy/paste the link and get a closed site.
Don't forget to watch this reed balancing video. Ridenour ATG Reed Balancing System
I know it may seem a bit odd, but it really does work. I think both sides need to be in balance not just one side. Balance the sides and make the reed in the middle like it ought to be and play. Works for me
Vernon
Jenewein Duduks Manufacturing & Research
www.duduk.us American made Duduks
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Author: Buster
Date: 2012-07-22 04:57
Bonade is a suspect legend if you too dig deeply; though I defy my own schooling by saying so...
Bonade also left his reeds slightly unbalanced at times as the cane/cut he had access to was often horrid. If he balanced them to the nth degree, they would simply fall apart and offer no blowing resistance. The right-thumb pressure is a bit of a red-herring...
Why do we care what kind of reeds anybody used, or what they actually did to them? They still had to play 'em...
In measuring differing, recent, vintages of Vandoren reeds (V12 for this discussion), there are 7 or 8 slightly varying cuts that can be defined. Most are heavier on the right-side in thickness from the tip down to around the 12 (in half mm.) Brand measurement. The right shoulder is also often thicker in its taper. Blue and Purple box cuts have varying issues...
Pushing the heart of the reed into the facing, or literally "breaking it in" as most do with their embouchure, does not the ideal reed make. Egads, I've many a time blended the upper portion of the spine into the rails with light brushes from my knife...
I sat next to Lee Morgan and saw him do the same with his (beveled!) knife when necessary...
I await my praise...
Check my website....
Am I not merciful?..
Are you not amused, are you not entertained?!?!?!
Post Edited (2012-07-22 05:07)
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Author: Wes
Date: 2012-07-22 04:58
As a subscriber to the Clarinet magazine of the 40s and 50s, I saw Bonade's reed journal pages and also the little book he sold on reeds. Trying his ideas that the reed should be stronger on the left side never worked for me.
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Author: kdk ★2017
Date: 2012-07-22 07:16
Before we go off on a tangent (though I may be too late), I think I was the one who invoked Bonade, and I only recalled the anecdote whimsically in response to Bob Bernardo's relating (confirming?) that he'd actually *designed* the Lurie reeds in the way Bonade (and his students) claimed Vandoren had already been doing things. Also to Bob's observation that "some of you or all of you think I'm nuts!." No invocation of the Bonade Legend was intended. He did what he did and wrote what he wrote in an entirely different era.
I leave to each player's individual experience whether or not making a reed heavier on the left is an advantage or something to to be corrected, and I have no idea what the Vandoren designers did or didn't do in the pre-1950 era or what Bonade actually did or didn't do when he played.
Karl
Post Edited (2012-07-22 11:42)
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Author: Bob Bernardo
Date: 2012-07-22 11:11
Drew you did your homework. Well done!
Just to confirm this - I did not design the Mitchell Lurie reeds. That had been around since the '50's. I just didn't like them! The late Herman Hansen played a very light setup. Since Herman was there from the start, back in the 1940's no one was real excited about me making any changes, so I had to wate for Herman to retire. During Hermans time, the style was to play on lighter reeds, not the German style.
Working with Mitchell I added more wood to the spine, because I felt the reeds collapsed at the upper register. So I have to say I reworked the reeds with Mitchell's approval. Without his approval this would have never happened. My claim to fame were the designs of the Grand Concert reeds, both the thick and thin reeds. Even the clipping of the reed tips were different between these 2 types of reeds.
Designer of - Vintage 1940 Cicero Mouthpieces and the La Vecchia mouthpieces
Yamaha Artist 2015
Post Edited (2012-07-23 12:19)
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Author: Bob Bernardo
Date: 2012-07-22 11:26
Buster wrote
Why do we care what kind of reeds anybody used, or what they actually did to them? They still had to play 'em...
Well for me I don't care what people use. The subject which I thought I stayed on course was working with reeds. That's it. Everyone has their special reeds they use so why would they change? I'm surely not asking for this.
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