 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: Clarimeister
Date: 2012-07-19 18:05
Hello all. This will be my final year at Cal State University, Long Beach. I definitley have the goal of going to graduate school for performance next year. So, I am prepping like crazy for prescreenings and auditions. My current three schools that i have so far are Eastman (Manasse), Michigan (Gilbert), and ASU (Spring). I am 100% positive I will be attempting to audition at these schools. However, I am in need of some suggestions for other schools, and I just need 2 or 3 more. I was going to add USC and Rice but even if I were to get into either one of those schools, which is very hard, financial aid would still probably not be able to cover my expenses. Just looking for open suggestions and why you think that would be a good school. I realize that you guys have never heard me play, so do not know my abilities, but I just want suggestions. Some suggestions I have had were SF Conservatory (Baez), Peabody (Mcgill or Barta), CCM (Gunn), or Northwestern (Cohen). Thanks everyone.
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Author: weberfan
Date: 2012-07-19 19:40
You've picked some marquee names and schools, but if cost is a concern and scholarship aid is uncertain, you might look into some very good programs that are looking to move up---and attract good students. A friend's son, who decided on the University of Michigan for graduate school in clarinet performance, was offered a free ride at the University of Delaware, which was trying to strengthen its program.
Not sure how you can gauge these kinds of up-and-coming programs...perhaps it's all word of mouth from other students or faculty members at competing schools.
But you may be better off, and less financially strapped, by looking beyond the very top drawer.
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Author: brycon
Date: 2012-07-19 21:26
I have heard that Rice offers excellent financial aid; I would not cross them off of your list due to financial aid concerns. When I applied to USC a few years ago, they offered a fairly good financial aid package as well. You may also want to consider applying at Colburn and Yale, which I believe are free to attend. Perhaps some of the larger state universities have teaching assistant positions available to graduate students to cover expenses? You may want to look into Indiana University, University of Texas, et cetera.
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Author: Ken Shaw ★2017
Date: 2012-07-20 03:10
Yehuda Gilad's studio at USC is the gold standard, but the competition to get in is ferocious.
Ken Shaw
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Author: Joanna
Date: 2012-07-20 03:24
McGill University in Montreal, Quebec (okay, I'm biased!) or Indiana University in Bloomington. A couple of friends of mine are at Indiana and they absolutely adore Mr. Campbell and Mr. Klug. I'm currently doing my Undergrad at McGill and it's definitely a great place to be!
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Author: gsurosey
Date: 2012-07-20 04:23
One of my college studio teachers (SUNY Geneseo) went to Northwestern (not sure if it was undergrad or graduate). He retired within the past couple years from teaching high school music, but he still teaches at the college. I also believe he may've subbed professionally on clarinet and/or bass clarinet. A friend of mine that I played with in a community orchestra a couple years ago (before she moved) got her MM in Clarinet Performance at San Francisco Conservatory. She's currently subbing professionally in Oregon. As far as I know, they both liked their collegiate experiences.
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Rachel
Clarinet Stash:
Bb/A: Buffet R13
Eb: Bundy
Bass: Royal Global Max
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Author: Eric V
Date: 2012-07-20 04:29
Hi Clarimeister,
Hokan Rosengren is right nearby at Cal State Fullerton, that's a great program.
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Author: Bob Bernardo
Date: 2012-07-20 06:31
Since you are looking as far as Baltimore, while you are out there check out Catholic University, in DC. Several great people have gone there for their doctorate's; performance. There's been a few military band members going there for the Masters degree. Frank Kowalski, down at Florida State or somewhere down there. Such a beautiful sound quality he has. He got his Dr. there.
Maybe Eddie Palanker will pop in. He knows some of these instructors and can advise. This is his home town area for many, many, years. The clarinet player at the National Symphony is worth checking out. Hard to believe, but I can't recall his name right now.
In this area you can find a lot of good players and good gigs. There's always concerts going on at the Kennedy Center, a place where you will surely perform at.
Hope this helps and don't forget to let us know how the auditions go.
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Author: eduardo94
Date: 2012-07-21 15:22
For clarinetists that wanna go to internacional competitions, is Yehuda Gilad the best?
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Author: Bob Bernardo
Date: 2012-07-22 12:26
Where is she located? Can't remember. Didn't she move somewhere sometime during the past 5 years?
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Author: Ed Palanker
Date: 2012-07-23 13:24
I suggest that since money is a problem that you consider all and any of the state universities in your state. It simply is not worth taking our large student loans to get a professional degree in a profession that is almost impossible the make a decent living in or even getting a job. When I taught at Peabody I had too many students graduate with to many loans to have to pay back. At least when I was there they were skimpy on scholarships, probably nothing much has changed there. Check out the state universities and arrange to take a lesson with as many of the clarinet teachers as you can and apply to the schools that you click with the teachers. Your state has many good orchestra players, some of them probably teach at some universities. There are many fine teachers today at the University level, orchestra players or not, you just have to find the right one for you. ESP eddiesclarinet.com
ESP eddiesclarinet.com
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Author: Ed Palanker
Date: 2012-07-23 15:58
Read my website articles on Symphony jobs is America and some other associated articles. ESP
ESP eddiesclarinet.com
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Author: Clarimeister
Date: 2012-07-23 18:37
Eddie, I have already read everything on your website. very informative and helpful! Also, I am already attending a State University and would really like to study elsewhere as suggested by many professors through out my college career. Money isn't an issue persay, I just want to see what kind of scholarships are available and what I can get. Thanks for the help everyone, I'm still taking suggestions!
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Author: Clarimeister
Date: 2012-07-23 19:17
Once again I have read Eddie's articles on symphony playing. Maybe I have other goals in mind, Ken. I really don't appreciate your approach to this thread, and this was not the kind of remark I would expect from a long time board user. I simply asked suggestions on schools, and you came with a completely different answer that was off topic. I know how difficult it is, I have read Eddie explain that in a million threads on here. You didn't come here with a valid suggestion for a school, you came in with a scare tactic on "OMG it's scary how impossible it is to get a job" I GET IT! So, until you recommend a school for me, Ken, then your post is invalid to me.
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Author: GBK
Date: 2012-07-23 19:40
Ken, Ed, myself and others have tirelessly written on performance as an unwise career choice. The subject DOES go hand in hand with graduate school decisions.
We all wish you much success in your dreams of a career in clarinet performance. However you should again be reminded (as I'm sure you probably have weighed the pros and cons) of putting all your eggs in one (small) basket.
My advice? Have a back up plan.
Previously, on this very subject I wrote:
The odds of winning an orchestral job? Not good
The security of an orchestral job? Not great.
The job market for clarinetists? Poor
The chances of making a living strictly playing the clarinet? Not going to happen.
The stability and liklihood of many 2nd and 3rd tier symphony orchestras financially surviving the next 25 years? Tenuous, at best.
Sure... follow your dreams, follow your heart, and all that goes with it...
But -
Each year (just in this country alone), conservatories and universities graduate hundreds of performers whose playing ability borders on the unbelieveable. The glut of clarinetists, flutists, pianists, etc... entering the job market is far more than is currently needed.
For example: How many great new concert pianists successfully break into the music world every year and have successful careers? 5? Certainly not many more than that.
The sad fact is that most clarinet performance majors will never earn a dime by strictly just playing the clarinet, for there is just no where for them to consistantly perform for pay.
When you are young, the notion of being a "professional clarinetist" sounds noble and intriguing.
However, after a few years, when your friends have moved on and bought their own homes, have retirement plans in place, have disposable income, medical benefits, and treat themselves to the better things in life, the "professional clarinetist" monicker loses its luster very quickly.
A struggling musician is not a pretty sight... ...GBK
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Author: Clarimeister
Date: 2012-07-23 19:48
My goal is not simply to play the clarinet. Far from it. Some things that I have in mind are what my current teacher does. Freelance, teach many clarinet players. I have started learning to double saxophone and flute. My goal isnt to make the LA Phil, as nice as that would be. My goal is not to sound like Ricardo Morales or Mate Bekavac, why would I want to sound like them anyways? I want to sound like me. These are just a few examples of many different things I had in mind. But, I didn't come here asking on what opinion people had about jobs, or what goals i had in mind, but now that I have been sucked dry to explain what those were, can I please get school suggestions, or is this going to turn into debacle of why i shouldnt audition for schools based on how poor the market is? I just want see what my options are of SCHOOLS and what people recommended based on that aspect. If I can't get any more responses on that, then I guess this thread is useless at this point.
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Author: Mark Charette
Date: 2012-07-23 19:55
Clarimeister wrote:
> My goal is not simply to play the clarinet.
I'm confused.
If you were my grad student for clarinet performance and you told me you weren't going to perform on clarinet for a living, I'd be going "Huh? Why would I want you for a student then, especially at that level?"
But that's just me.
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Author: Clarimeister
Date: 2012-07-23 19:57
Alright Mark, you win. Please delete this thread. Obviously, we have different ideas on what this thread was about, and I cannot win. Please delete immediately.
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Author: EEBaum
Date: 2012-07-23 20:51
Mark:
If I went to grad school for clarinet performance, and all I got out of it was to be good at playing clarinet, I would consider that a lousy education.
David:
I know a lot of quite good musicians who are trying to make it as combination performers/freelancers/teachers/etc. Many of them are scraping by, barely making rent, despite working their asses off and being damn good at it. In my personal experience and in seeing my colleagues, musicians are repeatedly given the short end of the stick. Effectively, they're trained monkeys for hire, the very bottom of the "talent" totem pole, often expected to be thankful for a **** minimum wage gig that amounts to hours of torture. I took a good long look at my own ambitions in music recently, and found myself with no positive endgame. So I bailed. I now work in software, making a good living on a 35-hour work week, with the flexibility and resources to do music only when, where, and how I want to do it.
The happy ones are the ones that realize that training in music is more than a skill in how to do music, but a different way to approach all sorts of issues and problems, and can apply this skillset to things outside of music.
-Alex
www.mostlydifferent.com
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Author: gsurosey
Date: 2012-07-23 21:40
Different schools have different strengths and weaknesses, so once you solidify what it is that you want to do (which it sounds like you have, or at least have a good idea), that may help guide you in where you want to go. Are there any tiebreakers in place, such as parts of the country you like, or whether or not you like warm weather, snow, or tornado chasing? What does your current instructor suggest?
My grad school attempt was in business, so I can't give you suggestions other than what I listed above from people that I know. Wherever you decide to go, I hope you enjoy it and get everything out it that you can.
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Rachel
Clarinet Stash:
Bb/A: Buffet R13
Eb: Bundy
Bass: Royal Global Max
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Author: clarinetist04
Date: 2012-07-24 02:46
David - no one is saying you can't do it, they're simply saying be VERY, VERY aware of the consequences of doing graduate school in clarinet performance. Alex is exactly right. He's been in those shoes and seen the dire circumstances that aspiring musicians can get into.
Read the article recently referenced on this board about the percussionist auditioning for the Boston Pops. 275 auditionees or something like that. 35 of the highly qualified, one get's the gig. The rest can't pay rent. It's not always about being who you are...in ANY orchestra, it's about being what the orchestra wants. If you're the best player out there and aren't the sound or quality the section is looking for you're SOL. That paradox took me a long time to recognize but the Chicago auditions personified that for me.
Having a plan to teach and have a studio on the side isn't diversified. What most of us mean by diversified is getting some type of education, even if it's just a class or some other medium (anything helps) to prepare you for life outside of music. Because there's a 99% chance that will be necessary.
More on topic, are you open to being in a service band? That would frame which graduate school you go to as well. As Bob or Ed or Ken said, many of them have gone through Catholic for their graduate work (including one of my former teachers who studied with Eugene Mondie - that was very recently).
I hope you haven't "shut down" and are open to reading where this string of responses goes. It's an incredibly important lesson for any musician.
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Author: Bob Bernardo
Date: 2012-07-24 02:57
I think us folks should follow our dreams. We may not make it into the top orchestras, but I'm doing fine, as a lot of others here that are writing on this board. Sure many symphonies will die. The military bands will have cut backs. It happened to me with an orchestra. Well I get to play a lot for the studios. I started the clarinet in the 4th grade, the sax in the 5th grade, so I can double without effort. Yes I'm very lucky because I double. You make about the same as an OK orchestra, but when times are slow it gets hard. There's lots of other types of things one can do in the music world. Lots of really great college instructors may not like sitting in major or minor orchestra's. I wrote about Frank Kawalski that has a doctorate. Never played in an orchestra. One of the finest sounds you will ever hear. Somewhere around the Marcellus sound quality. Well, even playing receptions for weddings can be lots of fun and yes most likely you will need a side job or a full-time job.
It surely can suck trying to make a few bucks. I was so broke one time I had to play the sax on the streets. Ugggg. 25 cents here and there. I ate rice for a week one time then a friend opened my frig for a beer and it was empty. That never happened to me, no beer! Yikes! His folks had me over for dinner so when I got real hungry I went over there! Times were hard. Well he still remains my best friend. 40 years now. He played in the military band with me and while in the band he went to law school. He's still in the military as an attorney. His mom graduated from New England and still plays the piano for some ballet schools for kids at the young age of 89 yrs old. She doesn't need to work of course, does it for the love of it. His sister went to Curtis. Vicki Noyes. She works at the Kennedy Center, the ballet orchestra. I think she graduated around 1977 or so. She never made it into a major sym. You can look her up if you wish. Curtis has a list of grads somewhere on the internet. Lots of them are in symphonies, but lots of them are not.
Didn't mean to bore everyone. Music isn't for everyone, but if you have that deep driving passion, well maybe there's room somewhere out there where you will fit in. If not, play in the local county orchestras for free, just to meet that driving passion, thats fantastic. Sure you may not get paid, but you still got that music degree and no one can take that away from you! You tried and you did your best.
From what I last read about conservatories that out of every 100 people only 99.6 make it into major orchestra.
My last though (thank God for those that are totally bored!)
The Los Angeles Musicians Union book, the directory, has about 250 pages full of musicians. There must be work out there somewhere. Something to ponder. Lets not kill that driving passion. Thanks for listening everyone. This board is great, letting us express ourselves.
Designer of - Vintage 1940 Cicero Mouthpieces and the La Vecchia mouthpieces
Yamaha Artist 2015
Post Edited (2012-07-24 03:08)
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Author: Clarimeister
Date: 2012-07-24 04:21
Bob, I really appreciate your time in writing that. Thank you very much. I have the passion, and I'm not going to let anyone discourage me from trying to go to grad school. I've made my decision to go, and that's that. And, I am looking at whatever I can get. If it doesn't work out, then whatever, I tried. But, I'm not for one second going to believe that I'm doing this effort for nothing, and not one person here is going to tell me otherwise. Thanks, again, Bob!
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Author: Bob Bernardo
Date: 2012-07-24 08:36
No need to thank me. However it is nice to be thanked sometimes! So thanks! : )
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Author: clarinetguy ★2017
Date: 2012-07-24 12:35
I think one thing that makes it difficult today is academic inflation. When I went to college in the 70s, there were plenty of excellent professors who had "only" masters degrees. Today, with a few exceptions, a Ph.D. (and in some cases, a post-doc) is necessary to break into the academic world. It used to be possible to get good symphony jobs with only a bachelor's degree, but this is rare today. In fact, I know of a brass player many years ago who made it into a major orchestra right after he graduated from high school! It's unfortunate that you're in a position in which it's necessary to spend a considerable amount of money for advanced degrees (if you want to follow your dreams), and the job outlook is quite uncertain.
Since you're young and filled with desire, here are a couple other things to consider.
I know (or know of) a couple performance majors who ended up working in the administrative offices of major symphony orchestras. They seem to be happy, and they do some performing here and there. One of these people is a classical saxophone performance major.
A couple years ago, I met someone at a conference who has a masters in saxophone performance and now works for Rico. She seems to enjoy her job. I don't know how good the job market is for people in music corporate positions--D'Addario (Rico), Vandoren, Conn-Selmer, Yamaha, etc., but perhaps it's a viable alternative. I'm sure Bob Bernardo has some thoughts since he did it.
I know it's quite difficult, but a few performers have made it big by thinking outside the box. Richard Stoltzman has had a nice career, but he didn't follow the usual route. http://articles.chicagotribune.com/1986-06-05/features/8602090709_1_richard-stoltzman-virtuoso-clarinetist-concert-bands
In fact, how often do you see a clarinet player on Sesame Street?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YjenWHXLr-M
The sax quartet H2 is another success story. Peter Cigleris, if you're reading this, do you still have the Canteloube Trio?
Good luck to you, and if you decide to go on for advanced degrees in performance, look at all your options.
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Author: MarlboroughMan
Date: 2012-07-24 16:33
Elmo says : "You can be anything you want to be *, so long as you believe in yourself!"
I say: "Just do yourself a favor kid, and come up with some basic reality checks. At the very least, if you don't get a full ride, don't go. The kids who pay have even less than the No Chance for a Real Job that will greet those who went to grad school on a full ride."
But who am I to contradict Elmo? He's got a goldfish and a crayon (which is more than most clarinetists can afford after falling for the grad school racket).
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*unless you want to be a fuzzy red oracle who encourages narcissism: Thats ELMO'S Turf, got it?!
Eric
******************************
The Jazz Clarinet
http://thejazzclarinet.blogspot.com/
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Author: EEBaum
Date: 2012-07-24 16:44
How much money does H2 bring in? I know lots of people with ensembles, bands, etc. that seem successful because they tour, release CDs, and so on, but in reality are happy if they have enough for a few beers after expenses. I can't think of any classical ensembles offhand that I'd consider a "success story".
As far as working non-musically for an orchestra or in a corporate position, I'd just ask yourself how important it is to work around musical things in a non-musical job. Administrative positions in symphony orchestras are few and far between compared to administrative positions in *every other company on earth*. If I'm aiming for a non-performing job, personally I'd pursue something that opens a lot more doors and opportunities.
You can indeed make it big by thinking outside of the box. But you need to do a serious amount of pavement pounding, have a lot of luck, and do a lot of really thankless gigs along the way. I approached the question this way: Would I rather spend endless hours scraping by in hopes that someone will hire me for a dream gig that I get to play 10 nights out of the year, or work outside of music at a chill high-paying job, and fund that 10-night dream gig with my spare cash (and not hate my life the rest of the year)?
In my case, I opted for the latter. Now, that's not an argument against going to grad school... in fact, I wouldn't know the people and have the skills to do those awesomely fun gigs without music grad school, so I would advocate *for* it. But I would simultaneously advocate to have a breadwinning co-plan (not backup plan) that allows you the flexibility to do music your way.
So many musicians I know end up biting the bullet and working some non-music jobs to pay the bills. Without pursuing proper training in non-musical areas, said non-music jobs will likely suck and pay much less. Waiting tables or folding shirts at GAP vs. a cushy white-collar job.
-Alex
www.mostlydifferent.com
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Author: clarinetguy ★2017
Date: 2012-07-24 17:38
Alex, thanks for sharing your experiences and observations with us. I went to your web site and read about your new job, and would like to wish you much luck, happiness, and success.
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Author: Bob Bernardo
Date: 2012-07-24 22:47
clarinetguy - Mitchell Lurie nailed a position in the LA Phil. at 16 1/2. OMG! He was just a junior in high school! Gifted jerk, oops that gifted hard working kid -a prodigy! Makes us all look bad!
Alex, couldn't you have picked another instrument to show off? That bari's weight is 2000 pounds and you need air after each note! You are a beast and a show off!!!
Since we are near each other, lets try to get together and bring a shirt. I need one of those! I think we are around 45 minutes or so. We can meet half way or something. With the messed up 405 freeway, maybe it will take more like 5 hours! Bob
Designer of - Vintage 1940 Cicero Mouthpieces and the La Vecchia mouthpieces
Yamaha Artist 2015
Post Edited (2012-07-24 22:59)
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Author: EEBaum
Date: 2012-07-25 00:03
Yeah, the contra's a pain to play standing up. Out of frame, you'd see I'm resting it on my knee.
Shoot me an email some time, Bob. I used to be right up in your area when I did two years at CalArts, though lately I'm up there much less often.
-Alex
www.mostlydifferent.com
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Author: Bob Bernardo
Date: 2012-07-25 01:56
Cal Art's is cool. I'm friends with the harp instructor. I won't say her name here. I'm sure you know her. I also enjoyed a few swims at the pool! Does this bring back memories? Again I won't go into details.
I'll shoot you one tomorrow. I thought it was a bari, contra's are insane, but what a wicked wonderful sound!
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