 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: vljenewein
Date: 2012-07-11 03:59
My wife is learning to play the clarinet with me. She is using the "Breeze-easy Method 1" book and in it the chart says to blos a "G" is with no tone holes covered. However, when I check that with the Korg Cromatic Tuner, I get a F. In fact, I get an F on all our clarinets. So by following the book we are not actually blowing a correct note? It has songs, and I can play them on the electronic piano (I took accordion lessons 6 years when a boy), but they would be different tones on our clarinets.
We have:
Selmer Bundy (2)
Evette by Buffet
LeBlanc Vito 7214 (plays really nice)
Schreiber & Sohne (Germany) heavy, and apperars hard rubber and plays nice and deep.
Mouthpieces (which should not effect the tone, but will list)
Bundy,
Selmer
Vandoren B45 and Vandoren Paris 5RV(new)
Selmer Goldtone #3 (new)
LeBlanc Vito II
(probably a couple others)
All the clarinets I bought are Bb clarinets, which is standard I undersand. Yet, I can't play a G with all open holes according to the Chromatic Tuner (Korg)
PS. Only playing clarinet for about 2 weeks and mosly not waiting for my lower denture to come in. Plays a lot nice now with the lower plate.
Vernon
Jenewein Duduks Manufacturing & Research
www.duduk.us American made Duduks
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Author: clarnibass
Date: 2012-07-11 04:33
Most clarinets are in transposition. This is why the ones you have are called Bb clarinet. This means that when you play a C on yoru clarinet it will sound like a Bb (on a piano, your tuner, etc.). All notes a full tone lower than their "names". So if you read a G, you should play a G on the clarinet, but it will sound like an F. Your clarinets and tuner work fine.
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Author: Campana
Date: 2012-07-11 08:23
There's nothing wrong with your clarinets. It's all to do with reading music. A very simplified explanation is that a piano has 88 keys but by virtue of putting notes in the spaces as well as on the lines, only showing whole tones and using sharps and flats to depict half notes the whole range can be shown on a couple of 5 line staves with ledger lines above and below.
If every instrument played a "C" when the "C" key was activated, their written music would be all over the place. a piccolo player would be reading his music zillions of ledger lines above the stave while a lower pitched instrument might have his music spread over the treble and the bass staves. So by making "Transposing" instruments, say, like a Eb clarinet that place Eb when you press C it allows the average content of their written music to fall on the stave.
It doesn't affect you as long as you play alone but if you want to play along with different instruments you'll have to make adjustments.
Post Edited (2012-07-11 08:55)
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Author: babrinka77
Date: 2012-07-11 08:44
have you bought 5 clarinets and 6 mothpieces to learn to play the clarinet!!!!???
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Author: vljenewein
Date: 2012-07-11 12:11
No, I actually bought 9 clarinets and some came with an extra mouthpiece and I bought 2 additional mouthpieces online, Amazon I believe. Still waiting for my Vito Resotone #3, Boosey & Hawkes "The Edgeware" wood (Grenadillia or Rosewood)clarinet, and another simply "wood" clainet I got for about 17.00.
I actaually enjoy them all. Each sounds like a clarinet, but a bit different. Wife like the Bundy or the Buffet the best, and one was a repair, that worked well with re-pad (3) and new tenon cork in 2 places *that is the one the wife likes*. And the "yet to arrive "LeBlanc Vito Resotone3 I bought since it had a new Vandoren B45 moutpiece as extra MP and was only $26.00. So in essence I bought it for the mouthpiece and the clarinet came along for the ride.
They don't take up a lot of room and they are kind of "collections" and something to pass on to the kids when I am gone. I can leave a note in each one saying "Darcy's" and "Niki's" etc and they have something Dad used and played on. ... perhpas they would have preferred 100 bucks, but they, like me, enjoy things passed down a generation or two.
One thing about it, we don't fight over who is playing the clarinet at the same time, we have a few to choose. Friend down the road a few miles has about 12 clarinets and about as many Saxophones. Beautiful saxes, and recently sold one of his deep bass Saxophones, kind of thinning out the herd. *S*
Also, just for perspective, the most I paid for any clarinet was $75.00 for the Boosey & Hawkes with the beautiful wood work. I figured it is not being made any more, and the wood is getting a bit harder to find than plastic or hard rubber and will be a nice asset to pass down to one of my kids/grandkids (I'm 59). The others are an average of about $32.00 each. Some just a little less and some just a few dollars more. All are tight, have good cork on tenons, and with good reeds play well.
Vernon
Jenewein Duduks Manufacturing & Research
www.duduk.us American made Duduks
Post Edited (2012-07-11 12:23)
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Author: vljenewein
Date: 2012-07-12 01:49
I understand about the transposing and the fact that you don't want notes way above or way below the staves. But the music book would be nice if it were written so that the mucic note and the way they show the note would actually be the note that is heard. What good is it to show no holes closed and say it's a G when in reality it is really and F by Chromatic Tuner, piano, or even your ear. Most Armenia Duduks are made in the key of A and a few in the key of C and Bb as well as D and the lower G keys. Depends on what you are going to do with them for playing.
With this music lesson book I want it to show me what an F is and the music to show the F to be all open holes, and so on and so forth. If they want to send you a Breeze-Easy Lesson 1 booklet for a key of C clarinet, then they need to have it stated in there or on the book somewhere and OFFER one that is for the clarinet in the Bb key design. It's all relative to vibrations and wave frequency, so why not say a F is and F and not a G?
Vernon
Jenewein Duduks Manufacturing & Research
www.duduk.us American made Duduks
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Author: Mark Charette
Date: 2012-07-12 02:49
vljenewein wrote:
> It's all relative to
> vibrations and wave frequency, so why not say a F is and F and
> not a G?
Because that's NOT the way it is with a transposing instrument. Whatever key the clarinet is, all holes open will be written as a G. The concert pitch will be different except if you're plying clarinet pitched in C - which alo means your lesson book is suitable for any soprano clarinet, from A to Ab ... Play what's written, since the work of figuring out what the composer wanted has already been done and written down for you.
There are both practical and historic reasons for a transposing instrument. Do a search here for "transposing instrument" and you'll find some excellent background and information.
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Author: Merlin_Williams
Date: 2012-07-12 03:01
The true beauty of transposing instruments is that you can learn one fingering and notation system and play all of the members of that instrument choir without learning new names for every fingering. All of the clarinet family are notated in treble clef.
Doesn't matter whether it's an Eb or a bass or A or contrabass. You see a second line G in treble clef and it's the open G fingering.
If you want a clarinet that sounds concert pitch, you need a C clarinet.
Jupiter Canada Artist/Clinician
Stratford Shakespeare Festival musician
Woodwind Doubling Channel Creator on YouTube https://www.youtube.com/c/WoodwindDoubling
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Author: vljenewein
Date: 2012-07-12 04:15
Ahhhhh ... The clarinet originally had limited keys you could play on it and then much was done to write so that it would be able to play with others in it's limitation. Is this a correct assessment? I was doing a bit reading on the "Search" for "Transposing Instruments" and I belive this is what I got out of it. As it progressed it developed more ability to hit keys (notes) higher and lower than the original idea and found that most would be useful in the Bb range.
It is an interesting comparison thinking about the Armenian Duduk and it's limitations, but when one hears a "Master" at home with it, the lack of tone holes does not posses too much difficulty. With amateurs and novices, it is more difficult, but when one is well trained on the Duduk, it can hit internodes or half and quarter notes by the positions of the fingers and the pressure on the mouthpiece (reed or Ghamish). Here is Gevorg Dabaghyan demonstrating the range of a Duduk to some English speaking folks that are composers. Intersting short video link of this kind of "Clarinet" predessor, if you might think of it, demonstrated: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eL9ciT6jQn8 Also the scales of the middle east, the Mughams and Rast are a bit different than what we preceive as scales and have a unique sound all their own. I am not sure that a Clarinet could emulate it.
One other thought... what if the barrel were lengthened? What if I could make any lenght barrel I wanted to put on the clarinet. I understand that making the mouthpiece further away from the escape holes, makes those hole lower pitched. For example, if for the sake of simplicity, if I had a reed on a mouthpiece and the distance to the first hole that is open on the clarinet is 150mm, then to make it longer I could make the first hole actually 155mm, 160mm, or any number I could come up with which would change the pitch. Also, if the barrel was shortened, it would raise the pitch. A clarinet in Bb, which, when all the tone holes are open plays F, woudn't a shorter barrel raise the pitch and make it then G?
Vernon
Jenewein Duduks Manufacturing & Research
www.duduk.us American made Duduks
Post Edited (2012-07-12 04:24)
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Author: Campana
Date: 2012-07-12 07:00
Not all instruments have the range of a piano or organ. A composer can write music that is within the range of most instruments. However this music, although limited in range, when played back by a full band or orchestra can cover the entire musical spectrum of range. This is possible because of the transposing instruments, some playing a little bit above or below the written music while other instruments are playing a considerable amount above or below the written music.
If there were no transposing instruments and all instruments played the same as the written note the band or orchestra would have a more limited tonal range when perceived by the listener.
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2012-07-12 11:11
A very short barrel (or no barrel) will indeed raise the open G (concert F) to A (concert G), but it won't be uniform along the entire instrument due to the tonehole layout which is specific to the pitch of the instrument - a clarinet built to play in Bb (which the majority are) can't be transformed into a C or an A clarinet merely by changing the length of barrel used as the scale will be thrown out as the toneholes are all fixed in the positions that make the instrument play in tune with itself.
To demonstrate this, if you have a guitar at hand this next bit will be made very clear.
Imagine the bridge of the guitar is the mouthpiece end and the nut is the bell, the fingerboard is the body and frets are the toneholes whose distance progressively increases as they get further away from the mouthpiece. On a guitar the frets are laid out in relation to the length of the string betwen the bridge and nut and the halfway point (the 12th fret) divides the string exactly in half to give a perfect octave.
Now move the bridge towards the soundhole (if possible) or place something under the strings to act like a bridge to shorten the length of the strings. Now play the open note and stop it at the 12th fret. As the string length has been shortened at the bridge end (which is the same as shortening the barrel on a clarinet) the note produced at the 12th fret is no longer a perfect 8ve as it was previously. That's because the scale has been ruined by shortening the string but not repositioning all the frets to compensate.
It's a different matter if you use a capo as you're shortening the strings at the nut end but still preserving the scale - the capo is now the new nut and 12 frets from it is the halfway point which sounds a perfect 8ve higher than the open string. This is the same as shortening the lower end of a woodwind instrument by means of uncovering toneholes (or sawing off the end of the tube through a tonehole to shorten it), but doesn't put a woodwind instrument into a different key.
As you already make duduks, you ought to know the physics of tube lengths in relation to tonehole positions along them and the distance between them to make them play in tune. If you shorten a duduk at the reed end, it will raise the overall pitch but it will cause a lot of tuning problems if the toneholes are still in their original positions as they need to be repositioned to make it play in tune with itself.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: vljenewein
Date: 2012-07-12 12:22
Thanks for the explanation, Chris, makes absolute perfect sense. And, yes, I was not making the connection between the shorter barrel and other holes like in the Duduk. You are absolutely right! A Duduk that plays in a key of A has a lenght of about 35.3 cm or 353mm and has holes drilled at specific locations at specific sizes along the lenght. In fact, the Armenians "tune" to a little degree, the tone holes as they play them when making them initially by increasing the size of the hole just a little bit here and there to bring it into pitch. I have seen this on videos on youtube. A C key duduk is shorter and has a different spacing of holes in relation to the mouthpiece and overall length.
Vernon
Jenewein Duduks Manufacturing & Research
www.duduk.us American made Duduks
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Author: vljenewein
Date: 2012-07-13 03:14
Chris, You are a person I was fishing for. Don't take it that you have been baited, no no no. But rather I found someone that understood tube length, relation to holes and notes formed. Have any of you, Chris especialy, found a formula that says if bore is X diameter then to create a lower A, the hole must be Y distance from the mouthpiece and the ratio of XX to the diameter of the bore. That would be so very helpful in determing the exact placement of tone holes in wood. I can drill to pretty close dimension for the bore 1.5mm and I can drill the tone(Finger) holes at set distances down from the physical end of the mouthpiece end of a duduk. However, finding the "sweet" spot that when I blow an A, or a E or F# it is nearly right in the middle with few/any cents either way. I am hoping to stumble across such a formula.
Vernon
Jenewein Duduks Manufacturing & Research
www.duduk.us American made Duduks
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2012-07-13 09:29
I was never great at physics, so won't be able to tell you any formulae - however, the best place for woodwind physics is Theobald Boehm's book 'The Flute' which has a diagram (or 'Schema') which shows the tonehole placement in relation to tube lengths. The tonehole placements for each semitone are shown on that, so the diagram can be scaled up to the length of instrument you're making and used as a guide. The formula is the same as used by guitar and other fretted string instrument makers so all the frets have the correct placement for the length of string (scale).
The ratios of the toneholes along the length and space in between are the same as that as the placement of guitar or mandolin frets (the distance in between them increases the further down the instrument they go), so knowing that ratio will give you a good guide as to placement. Then it's a case of finding the correct diameter which is best done by starting with a small tonehole and opening it up until the correct tuning for that note is found.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: William
Date: 2012-07-13 15:21
Take a couple private lessons. A little "live" help will quickly get you on the right track with this transposition problem you seem most concerned about. Basically, I would simply say do what your fingering chart tells you and try to worry less about what the tuning meter says. Just accept the fact that it will always show you are sounding one whole tone lower than you are reading because you are playing an instrument that--for reasons no one really knows--was designed as a "transposing" horn. One of the curious quorks that makes clarinet playing--as well as arranging and composing--so interesting. Enjoy learning to play your clarinet--most of us are still trying to master its challenges.........
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The Clarinet Pages
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