 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: Campana
Date: 2012-07-09 23:07
I'm elderly and I've been playing only 9 months. Nearly all the problems I experienced in the early months were "player error", finger not covering the hole or laying on another key type of thing. I thought that was all behind me and that I'd reaches a stage where I could concentrate on improving tone/tonguing/finger dexterity etc.
However I've really got a problem that I can't solve. Every so often, perhaps twice a week with daily practice, I'd be going through my practice routine, playing at normal standard when, wham, the clarinet becomes almost unplayable. Notes in the chalumeau register become very hard to blow and sound flat/dead/stuffy and I might just as well forget the clarino register.
When it does this it stays bad. I get up, go to a mirror, look at my finger positions which I check and recheck. I change reeds, swap mouthpieces but usually the fault stays. Next day everything will be fine...until the next time.
I've examined the keywork minutely, over and over again. there is never anything apparant.
I've dismissed "biting" because once this thing happens I really concentrate on the basics, usually to no avail. I've also dismissed embouchure fatigue as this thing can happen early on in the practise, in any case I do suffer embouchure fatigue after an hour or so and I would recognise it.
I play a B & H Edgeware, wooden, recently overhauled, Vandoren B40 and play from a choice of 3 Legere Signature reeds 2/2.25/2.5
It must be remembered the clarinet plays very well most of the time.
Anybody any ideas...pleeeeez
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Author: kdk
Date: 2012-07-09 23:38
Could easily be a normally closed pad near the top of the instrument with a cut or other opening in the skin surface so that, as you play, it beings to absorb water. As it soaks up, it swells a little. When it gets to a certain point its shape becomes distorted enough to interfere with the seal (or the tear expands into the pad seat) and it begins to leak air, making everything farther down the tube of the clarinet unstable. When you let it sit overnight, it dries and returns to its normal shape.
This isn't the only possibility, but given your description of the problem, it's the first thing I'd look for. The closed keys will need to be taken off the clarinet and the pads carefully examined. If you don't feel comfortable doing this yourself after only nine months' playing, have a repair tech check it out for you. If there is a torn pad, a replacement will end the problem.
Good luck with it.
Karl
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Author: pewd
Date: 2012-07-09 23:42
What Karl said. start with the G# and A pads on the top joint.
Also make sure the adjusting screw between those 2 keys isn't too tight - back it off 1/4 turn.
- Paul Dods
Dallas, Texas
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Author: clarnibass
Date: 2012-07-10 05:11
I would also check that screw Paul suggested. Sometimes it is just boarderline so only when the throat A pad swells a bit (even if it's not torn) it's just enough to raise the G# key from sealing.
Hard to say but most likely it is a top pad not closing for whatever reason. It could be something like what Karl suggested or a mechanical issue. The most recent ones I saw were the top trill key touchpiece just barely catching on the second trill key touchpiece and the throat A key spring having friction that sometimes makes it just cracked open very slightly and not close completely. There could be many more reasons.
When it happens it is best to stop and make sure you ar enot moving anything. Try playing one of the notes that don't come out, using your left hand only (lean the clarinet bell on a chair, for example). then with your other hand carefully press one key at a time, starting from the top. Really try to make sure you are only pressing each key and not moving anything else accidentally. You might be able to find the problem this way.
Post Edited (2012-07-10 05:12)
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Author: Campana
Date: 2012-07-10 11:27
Many thanks everyone, brilliant bit of diagnostic problem solving. It was the adjustment screw. Being a regular reader of this forum, I knew all about this screw and out of interest following a bout of earlier corresponence on the subject had checked mine out and found it to be just right. Consequently it was not high on my list of possible causes. However it had vibrated fully closed with zero clearance.
The screw is, in fact, a very loose fit and will obviously move again in the future so I need to think of a way to prevent this happening. In the "macro" field of engineering there are products such as Loctite but not too sure if this isn't an overkill for this size of screw. Don't want to chew up the slotted end if adjustments in the future are needed.
Many thanks once again, I was getting so frustrated.
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Author: Lelia Loban ★2017
Date: 2012-07-10 12:06
>> The screw is, in fact, a very loose fit and will obviously move again in the future so I need to think of a way to prevent this happening. >>
I understand the desire to find a permanent solution to this recurring problem. Been there, tried that. Drove myself nuts.
For me the permanent solution was to re-categorize how I think about that screw: It doesn't have a permanent adjustment, or even a long-term adjustment as a tenon cork has, because that screw belongs in the category with the reed, as something that needs frequent attention because it's not designed to stay the same. Nothing reasonable will make that screw stay put without unintended consequences. But on the positive side, next time this problem recurs, you now know what to do about it, the same way you know what to do about a worn-out reed. Better yet, adjusting the screw costs nothing and is easier than selecting a good new reed.
Lelia
http://www.scoreexchange.com/profiles/Lelia_Loban
To hear the audio, click on the "Scorch Plug-In" box above the score.
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Author: kdk
Date: 2012-07-10 13:07
I disagree that the adjuster we're discussing should be free enough to move around accidentally. It certainly needs to be move*-able* - sometimes an adjustment is needed because something else has changed - so you'd never use a permanent cement of any kind on it.
But I've seen repair techs use a small amount of nail polish, either over the head or on the threads, to keep the screw from moving. So long as the slot is clear, a normal twist of a screwdriver will break the grip of the polish.
Many clarinets come with nylon or plastic screws that hold more firmly than a metal screw does. Probably, Putz can get a replacement screw, maybe at a local repair shop, made of one of these synthetics that will solve the travel problem. One side benefit is that without metal-on-metal contact between the screw and the G# key below it, you don't need to keep cork or rubber under the screw to quiet it.
Karl
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Author: clarnibass
Date: 2012-07-10 14:10
>> It doesn't have a permanent adjustment....... as something that needs frequent attention because it's not designed to stay the same. <<
Sorry... I completely disagree... and agree with Karl.
When the screw is adjusted and secured it really shouldn't need adjutament frequently at all. Actually it's rare that it needs adjustment and usually that's because the securing method is not a good one.
If the screw is metal...
One repairer did a thorough test and compared Loctite and mail polish. The Loctite held better and had another advantage of keeping good friction when turning the screw. When nail polish was used and the screw was turned it went back to being pretty loose.
Some people just use nail polish on the head (slot side) of the screw, after it is adjusted to the correct position. This doesn't hold it very securely. First, it will hold the head in place but still allow the screw it self to move on the other side. Second, it doesn't penetrate well and will work by just gluing a bit to the head and the the area, which is very weak.
I see no reason not to put it on the threads. It is very easy to unscrew it a little, put Loctite (or nail polish) on the threads and then screw it to the adjusted position. Loctite holds better and penetrates better to get between the threads and "holder".
For a screw this small I recommend only to use Loctite 222 (purple). For bigger screws (usually none on clarinets) the blue one (I think 242 but not sure) can also be ok.
If the screw is plastic...
These tend to have their slot ruined more often. You can use the weak Loctite (purple 222) but it might be risky. If you put just a bit it can be ok. The problem is the slot is less resistant so then opening it might be a problem. Maybe too risky without experience...
I wouldn't replace a metal one with a plastic one. Plastic screws have only one real advantage that isn't really an advantage anyway (no need to glue a material to the A key).
Plastic are often not really more secure than metal ones. I see a lot of loose ones, almost as much as metal ones. Securing them can be more tricky.
With metal and some plastic screws it is sometimes possible to create more friction by "destroying" some of the threads (e.g. pressing with pliers). It doesn't always work and it has to be the exact amount so the screw isn't too tight (so be careful if you try it).
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Author: JHowell
Date: 2012-07-10 20:48
I'd try the weakest thing first, such as nail polish. I wouldn't even go as strong as blue Loctite, and whatever you do don't use red Loctite. I also wouldn't deform the threads. May work for the time you own the clarinet, but with much turning the deformed threads will wear the mating threads and you'll be worse off. A tiny sliver of teflon tape in the threads may also do the trick.
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Author: Campana
Date: 2012-07-10 21:39
Thank you all for offering advice on the follow on problem of a loose screw (does having a screw loose have the same connotation in the US as it does in the UK, i.e. a bit mental). All of the solutions proposed would work but in the end I decided to get some Loctite 222 purple, seems the correct specification for the job.
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