 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: Garth Libre
Date: 2012-07-01 19:09
My most recent tech, Mr. Andres Santana of Miami Fl, has had three shots at fixing a minor leak in my bottom segment. It still fails to pass the suction test, nor the blow test. I know that it leaks because I am comparing it to the upper section which easily holds suction and easily passes the blow test. As a result the lower clarion stinks. I am either going to get a completely new horn or take it to another tech in my area to see if the problem can be solved. (So far two techs have had a go at it). My last attempt will be County Music in Pembroke Pines. I've spent $200 for a complete overhaul (it needed it), $50 for some pads redone by a second tech, $0 for a redo by the same tech and now $25 for a redo of the same problem. I guess it's possible that the horn simply can not be fixed and maybe I would be better with a fresh start. My 45 year old Malerne may be beyond hope. The lower pads have been replaced twice, the regulation has been checked and rechecked and the cigarette paper test shows even pressure all around all lower pads. Does anyone know a better tech in South Florida. I really am enjoying my daily progress and the thrill of being able to express myself with music. I don't want to spend weeks without an instrument anymore.
Garth
Garth, 305-981-4705. garthlibre@yahoo.com
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Author: Ed Palanker
Date: 2012-07-01 19:21
I don't but a good tech will seal that lower register the first time. It's possible that the spring on the Ab-Eb key is too weak and opens a tiny bit when you apply pressure. It usually does on all clarinets but it shouldn't with just a little pressure as in normal playing. It's also possible that one of the rods is not tight and moves very slightly preventing it to seal if the pad does not sit perfectly at times. You need an expert to look at it, sounds like your techs are not so. I don't like to send my clarinets away to anyone but I know many people do. I could give you my tech in MD and perhaps others can too. If you want mine ask me off of the board, he's great. He puts it on a pressure meter to see if it's sealing, your tech should have one, many do. ESP eddiesclarinet
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Author: jbutler ★2017
Date: 2012-07-01 19:29
It may not be a pad. There could be a small leak somewhere in the timber. Secondly, air could be leaking between the ring and the wood when you're doing your suction test. Make sure your finger tips are moist when you try also. I had a problematic Selmer that I found a very small pin hole leak at the base of one of the chimneys. I don't have any idea how it could have happened. Good luck.
j butler
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Author: kdk
Date: 2012-07-01 22:23
This is a great argument for choosing a tech who will let you watch while he works on the instrument (at least until you're sure of his thoroughness).
The tech should be leak-testing both sections before returning the clarinet to you. Nearly anyone can tear out pads and replace them. That isn't an overhaul. If that's all that's been done, the problem may be poor pad quality, small checks in a chimney somewhere, an irregular chimney surface at a spot the cigarette paper didn't hit, rings that are too high and prevent your fingers from closing the holes completely, rings that are not high enough and don't close the pads completely when you press the ring, or any of several other possibilities that I'm sure I'm missing off the top of my head. The tech should be checking the air seal (many shops these days have vacuum testers) and, if a section doesn't seal well, he should look for the reason - there has to be one.
Of course, finding and fixing more subtle or covert problems can ramp up the needed shop time and, therefore, the cost. At some point the decision is not whether the instrument *can* be fixed, but whether it's cost-effective to do it.
Karl
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Author: BobD
Date: 2012-07-01 22:55
"My most recent tech, Mr. Andres Santana of Miami Fl, has had three shots at fixing a minor leak in my bottom segment. It still fails to pass the suction test, nor the blow test. " Hesitating to post my initial reaction.......
Bob Draznik
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Author: stevesklar
Date: 2012-07-02 01:13
I've basically have sealed all toneholes on vintage clarinets (and sometimes the bore).
I had one clarinet years ago that had a leak on it which I could not find. I finally realized that the air was penetrating the wood around the tonehole. And with my thin fingers it went around the fingers through the wood. When I used a fatter finger it sealed. When I use my pressure machine the rubber plugs it was leaking; pad on top the the tonehole and it was sealed.
Sealed the tonehole and no more leak. I do a body sealing pressure tests now. The "air pressure loss" does not make it not play but the response is not as fast.
but normally if it played well and sealed well before and it had an overhaul then there's something off. It's usually the two crows foot synchronized pads that are not sealing properly. Of course without testing it it could be one or many things.
You can give Randy Emerick a call. his shop is down by Fort lauderdale .. just google him
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Stephen Sklar
My YouTube Channel of Clarinet Information
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Author: Bob Bernardo
Date: 2012-07-02 02:31
Since it's summer can you send it out to someone thats really top rated. I don't know anyone in Florida, based on your email address.
If the pads are truly set correctly you need to start looking somewhere else. Someone that can perhaps take the horn completely apart and make sure each pad is really set correctly with no leaks. Good repair shops not only can check suction but pressure, pushing air out of the horn. There is a hand tool I made the can check the seal of a pad before putting it on a horn. A trick I picked up from Hans.
I think I once wrote that the famous Hans Moenig would throw out several pads before finding a good one that seals.
If the pads are fine and the repairman is good perhaps the bore is off, the holes need to be undercut, the barrel needs a touchup or even your mouthpiece hs warped just a bit.
My guess is try another repairman, a good one. If you want to send the horn out I can give you 3 names, people that I've used in the past. Email me if needed.
Designer of - Vintage 1940 Cicero Mouthpieces and the La Vecchia mouthpieces
Yamaha Artist 2015
Post Edited (2012-07-02 23:21)
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Author: kdk
Date: 2012-07-02 04:52
Bob Bernardo wrote:
>
> I think I once wrote that the famous Hans Moenig would throw
> out several pads before finding a good one that seals.
>
Yes, and he tested them before he mounted them on the clarinet (suction test using a short length of copper tubing, if I remember correctly).
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Author: clarnibass
Date: 2012-07-02 05:58
Re Steve's suggestion of Randy Emerick, I haven't met him, but my impression of him from an instrument repair forum is good. I don't know if he is near your area.
It's a little strange, unless the repairers you tried just didn't fix the leak(s). There is no leak that is impossible to repair, assuming no limitations (such as budget).
Maybe cost is so much different in your area, but if your clarinet was really in a condition that required an overhaul, then $200 is a very low price for an overhaul. Maybe it was a "cheap overhaul", without attending to mechanical and underlying issues, simply changing all the pads and corks, etc.
It's not clear if it had the problem when you got it back from the overhaul and imediately after each time you it "repaired". Or is this something that was fine at first and started (shortly?) after?
It can be a leak from an area other than a pad. Maybe a chipped tone hole, a leak through a post hole, a flat spring screw cutout and I even saw leaks from tiny holes in the body itself in a random place. Each of those things can be checked. Did any of the repairers tell you what was the problem and what they did to fix it (if it was temporarily fixed)?
Re the "pressure meter" that Ed mentioned, I assume he meant a magnehelic machine. I have one and have to say this is not required. It is possible to get equally good results without it (if you know how to feel the same thing with your mouth, simply sucking or blowing normally will not really do it). So don't judge anyone by them having/using this machine or not.
Keep in mind that if the leak is a result of some underlying issues, it might not be cheap to repair. Of course, a repairer should explain that to you, what the problem is and how much it will cost to repair. they shouldn't charge you, sort of fix it but not really and tell you they did.
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Author: Garth Libre
Date: 2012-07-02 18:55
I don't know exactly what to do now. I just came back from Randy's shop at All County Music in Pembroke Pines. The manager told me that they're not even willing to look at new repairs until after the 21st of July. They say that after that it could still take Randy two weeks to get to my horn. I can play my old Malerne until then, and I fully expect to enjoy playing (with an occasional note that refuses to play intermitently due to the large lower leak I still have). I also fully expect to make good progress in the interim. My proposal to All County Music was to rent me an instrument for a month until Randy can look at mine. The owner must have been impressed with how I take care of things because I had to inform him that my Malerne is about 45 years old because he thought it was new (I am careful with things - especially old things). The owner told me that he has no quality instruments left to rent, only student plastic horns.
I might go to Sam Ash to play test a Yamaha 650 which is the horn I'm most interested in due to the way it feels in my hands and also due to things I've heard about it. It is possible that they could rent an instrument for a month or so. I'm really interested in eventually buying a used Yamaha 650 or similar for the $800 budget I've artificially set for myself. All County has a Yamaha Allegro which is amazingly beautiful visually, and I thought the key action felt as good or better than the R13 they had sitting next to it. Today, on Ebay, there is a minty Yamaha 34 that will probably go for $350 fresh from overhaul so obviously quality instruments are available in budget range. I'm mostly in favor of buying an instrument that I can play before making a commitment, so Ebay is not ideal for me (perhaps Craigslist).
I've fiddled around with my old Malerne for the five months I've had it fresh out of overhaul, and each month I've returned it to tend to the same problem. I feel that I'd like to see a competent tech face to face who will give me an honest informed opinion on what's wrong with my horn. It's may day off today and I feel guilty for being a a complainer. However, it's kind of in my nature to strive to perfection even when I'm far from it. I've restored five classic road bikes from the 60's to the 80's and each time I didn't settle for less than mechanical ideal function, so little things do matter to me. My yoga practice is physically close to ideal for a nearly 60 year old man. My past ballet career involved endless repetition of simple things, and I never seemed to tire of creating a sense of ease in difficult steps. My son is home schooled because my wife and I insist on the best we can offer him. What can I say? I'm destined to practice scales until they sound right. I don't like to gloss over things, especially when I know that the ordinary can, with work, become the sublime.
Garth, 305-981-4705. garthlibre@yahoo.com
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Author: Wes
Date: 2012-07-02 21:03
For some hard to find leaks, I have used a cork in one end and a hose through a cork in the other, blowing in the hose while the fingers cover the holes and hold the keys down in a pan of water. Little bubbles show where the leak is. The water does not harm the instrument. Sometimes one is surprized by the findings! Good Luck!
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Author: Bob Bernardo
Date: 2012-07-02 23:44
Something just popped up in my thoughts from past experiences. There could be a tone hole with a tiny nick on it, where the pad seals the hole. This can happen to any horn, but since yours is fairly old it's very possible that the repairman missed this tiny ding. Some repairmen don't take off all of the keys unless it's a major overhaul. They simply pop out the old pad and replace it, then check it with a cigarette paper. Well the paper may feel like it's sealed, but the paper may not pick up that tiny nick.
As already stated a good repairman can fix this tiny ding. I won't get into what a repairman would do, because the choices for fixing have to do with the technique.
I would still give a really good repaiman a chance and also pick up a spare horn. If you play a lot it's probably somewhat of a must to have a second horn, even if someone plays in a local band or a church for free.
Keep us posted.
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Author: pewd
Date: 2012-07-03 01:28
Send it to John Butler (jbutler) above. It won't be quick, what with shipping time to and fro, but John does great work.
- Paul Dods
Dallas, Texas
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Author: clarnibass
Date: 2012-07-03 06:00
>> Some repairmen don't take off all of the keys unless it's a major overhaul. <<
IMO there isn't such a thing as removing or not removing any key only for a certain repair, if it's necessary to find the problem. This assumes no serious budget issues restricting that. Though some repairers would do even a long test for free.
The clarinet has a problem. If replacing the pad and checking with a feeler doesn't fix the problem then it doesn't matter how many times it is replaced and checked. The purpose is to fix the problem, not to replace a pad.
>> blowing in the hose while the fingers cover the holes and hold the keys down in a pan of water. <<
There is a similar test to find holes in the body itself by removing all the keys, plugging all holes and, put in water and blow. That's how I found a few tiny holes, almost invisible with a magnifier, at rnadom areas of a clarinet body.
I prefer not to put the clarinet with all its keys in water. It's not a problem if it's later dissasembled, cleaned and oiled but I just rather not do it. There is a method that works just the same and doesn't require putting the keys in water. Plug the end and hold the keys closed. Fill the clarinet with water inside the bore. Remove the water and then blow into the open end. You will hear and usually see (you can use a mirror or another person) air bubbling form the leaky areas and sometimes some water dripping. Almost anyone can do this test at home.
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Author: stevesklar
Date: 2012-07-03 15:00
Garthe, Sorry to hear that Randy was busy.
On another note, you should have attempted to ask him about Road Bikes. He rides an 80's Basso w/Campy... might have gotten some quick bench time 
I used to race myself in the 80s and have a 80ish Alan Sprint polish olympic team bike .. 17lbs (OMAS & Campy titanium goodies from that era) , and my old racing Guerciottis and Tomasso's.
what were we talking about again ?
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Stephen Sklar
My YouTube Channel of Clarinet Information
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Author: Garth Libre
Date: 2012-07-03 22:50
As an aside, I have a Raleigh Team in consumer colors with Suntour Superbe, a 3Rensho also with Suntour, a Carebela track bike with Columbus tubing and all Cinelli lugs made in Mexico, a Colnago Arabesque with gold inlay, and a 40th Anniversary Gios Compact with some Campy C Record. Now that I know Randy is a classic bike guy I might tempt him with a Benotto frame and chrome fork I have sitting on the rack in 54 cm.
Garth
Garth, 305-981-4705. garthlibre@yahoo.com
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Author: stevesklar
Date: 2012-07-04 09:41
Tony,
The keys are in C and be C'een.
Tempo is usually a heart wrenching Allegro
but it also can be in a lovingly Adagio as one recalls the "renassiance" tonality of a bygone era of the smooth and fast functioning Superbe componentry to the svelte blue Gios paint scheme & emblem.
what were we talking about ?
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Stephen Sklar
My YouTube Channel of Clarinet Information
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Author: Garth Libre
Date: 2012-07-04 17:20
Being July 4th and another day off for me, I visited the local Sam Ash to test out a new horn. They didn't have a Yamaha 650 or even a 450, but they did have the new student model 350. The 350 DX is plastic (essentially a 250 with the addition of a special wooden barrel). The 350 has a very nice adjustable thumb rest and responsive key work compared to my old Malerne. The Sam Ash tech took the day off, so the only thing for me to do was to play test the 350. I played it for one hour and for that whole hour I was thrilled. They gave me a room with a piano and a nice music stand so I just played tune after tune, scale after scale, exercise after exercise and was astonished at how much easier the instrument was to play. It wasn't just four notes over the break that were much easier, It was the whole horn. The throat tones blended nicely with the clarion. The altissimo was easier to play and easier on my ears. The question is wouldn't I be happier with a 450 or a 650? The wood tone and aesthetic visual beauty of the 650 is wonderful and something you don't get from plastic instrument. Will the 450 or 650 sound markedly better, darker, warmer than the humble 350? By the way, the 350 was miles more in tune than my old Malerne. Sometimes the advances of technology trump the allure of things past.
Garth
Garth, 305-981-4705. garthlibre@yahoo.com
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