 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: Batiste Matumba
Date: 2012-06-13 17:58
Had anyone noticed that the structure of the second movement of Mozart's clarinet concerto brazenly approached the golden ratio?
Exposure + development = 60 bars
Entire adagio = 98 bars
98/60=1,6333333333333... and between development and the recapitulation is a cadence! something very unusual in the 2nd movements, Which approximates more the structure to the divine proportion!
For those who do not know about the Golden Ratio:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Golden_ratio
It will be intended by Mozart? It will be a mere coincidence? Discuss!
(Im not anglophone, so sorry if i made mistakes :P)
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Author: vjoet
Date: 2012-06-14 13:24
Music is experienced in time. I don't think we apply the visual golden ratio (as in Greek temples) to temporal experiences. Coincidence.
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Author: Batiste Matumba
Date: 2012-06-14 15:53
Golden ratio is applied by other composers to music (Bela Bartok for example, but there are many more) and this is an indisputable fact. The question is: Was Mozart so ahead of his time to use this compositive technique?
Maybe he composed more works using this and other compositive techniques, im pretty sure, but we havent noticed it yet.
For example, the magic flute has many masonic symbols... i think we dont know all about Mozart yet^^ its really interesting for me.
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Author: Liquorice
Date: 2012-06-14 21:29
I'd go more with the theory that Mozart intuitively understood the ideal proportions and balance of a piece of music. The fact that this ideal proportion sometimes lines up with the golden ratio wouldn't be surprising in this context.
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Author: Buster
Date: 2012-06-14 23:13
Much of the "history" involving the "Golden Ratio" (1:1.618--- though an irrational number) is suspect to begin with; and it often involves imposition of our current math onto a past work, be it architecture such as the Parthenon, or what have you...
(We can blame Dan Brown for some of this "Golden Mean"/Fibonacci series nonsense. A morsel of knowledge extrapolated wrongly is a dangerous tool!)
Searching any past work of art looking for evidence of what you wish to find is an incorrect path to take..... one must start with the work of art at hand and discern what is there.
If this investigation reveals that a "Golden Ratio/Mean" is present, then we may have grounds for discussion. Approaching from the other direction will only yield us surmising and conjecture that can not be substantiated, try as we may.
Yet, even if a correlation between 1:1.618 and any work is discovered, the question arises What are we to do with this knowledge?; likely it would tell us little how to proceed actually bringing back to life an inert composition... though thoughts on that count would be welcome.
<< Golden ratio is applied by other composers to music (Bela Bartok for example, but there are many more) and this is an indisputable fact. >>
Regarding Bartok, this "fact" is actually quite disputable... though more recent composers have acknowledged the usage of the Fibonacci sequence/"Golden Ratio."
<< For example, the magic flute has many masonic symbols... i think we don't know all about Mozart yet^^ its really interesting for me. >>
The Magic Flute does contain Masonic symbolism, a fact which seems to be "known" most. The work also has ties to Zoroastrianism, which is little discussed.
We certainly don't know everything about Mozart, and we likely never will. (I have heard surmising about the number '3' in K.622 for instance.) Yet all influences/symbols need to be acknowledged if we are to get anywhere on that tract.
No me queda claro lo que quieras discutir; o lo que buscas....
-Jason
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Author: Tony Pay ★2017
Date: 2012-06-14 23:28
Jason wrote:
>> We certainly don't know everything about Mozart, and we likely never will. (I have heard surmising about the number '3' in K.622 for instance.) >>
Well, what's true is that there are many varieties of instances of it in the piece. That's just a fact. Make of it what you will.
An isolated coincidence, like the golden section in the Adagio, is another matter.
Tony
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