 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: ClariKid5
Date: 2012-05-28 04:12
So,
I have a tendency to play with flat fingers, and I've tried the hand over the knees thing, and it's not working out so far...
any tips on how i can play correctly? much appreciated!
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Author: bethmhil
Date: 2012-05-28 05:26
I have also had the same problem for quite a while. The biggest thing that helps me is finding ways to allow both hands to open up. With the left hand, I am able to make my fingers relax and sit naturally (curved) on the keys when I feel the space between my palm and the clarinet. This is a cello-ism, but feel like you are grasping a soda can-- this helps to create space and relax the hand.
The right hand is a different story. I have the habit of pounding down on the keys almost as if I'm playing the piano (sigh), and this makes my entire arm, wrist, and hand very tense, and thus forces my fingers to hyperextend and play "flat". Again, biggest thing that has helped me is to find ways to create space in order to open my hand up. I make my own (purple) version of this, but Tom Ridenour makes a thumb saddle that is very effective in opening up the right hand. And like I mentioned for the left hand, allowing there to be much space between your palm and the clarinet, allowing it to be free and open without tension will help your fingers relax and fall naturally onto the keys.
BMH
Illinois State University, BME and BM Performance
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Author: Ed Palanker
Date: 2012-05-28 17:27
The shape as if picking up a ball is what I used in my teaching for many years. Practise shaping it that way in front of a mirror several minutes a day and practise picking up you fingers slowly in a relaxed motion up and down. Start with f to e, then e to d, then d to c etc. Then start again from the F and add fingers, f to e, f to d, f to c , f to Bb etc all the way down. A slow high motion up and down, slow, to gain complete control over your fingers and hand position. Make sure your thumbs are in a comfortable position that allows you to keep your fingers curved. Not to close to the wrist but not to close to the tip. It takes time to change a bad habit. ESP eddiesclarinet.com
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Author: rgames
Date: 2012-05-28 18:59
I do it for a different problem but I've found that playing in front of a mirror can help out a bunch. Concentrate on your fingers and the visual feedback will help you learn the feeling much more quickly. Does for me, anyway...
When I get out of practice (happens a lot these days) one of the biggest problems I have is moving my right hand pinky and ring fingers together (e.g. to go from middle C to top space E) - when I do it, the middle and index fingers move just enough that the interval is not clean when done quickly. For me, the best way to get those fingers back in correct coordination is to think about relaxing my hand and looking in a mirror, concentrating on the middle and index finger.
It's amazing - I can make quite a substantial improvement in the cleanliness of a fast C maj arpeggio just by focusing on those fingers in the mirror. You might be able to do the same for hand position.
rgames
____________________________
Richard G. Ames
Composer - Arranger - Producer
www.rgamesmusic.com
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Author: Buster
Date: 2012-05-29 00:32
Our primary tactile senses can deceive: what we feel is occurring can vary greatly when viewed as an "outsider." (And I surely cannot sense everything that is being micro-managed.)
As Richard suggested, viewing your hands in a mirror while playing can help lay bare this deception... though I would caution not becoming "too" reliant upon its usage.
Actually forcing your fingers/hand into a position that you want to see, or have been told is "correct", can hinder technical development. The degree of curvature of the hand, and the fingers themselves, does change in small degrees depending on what is called for by the passage at hand- no pun intended ;-)
At times, using a "flattened" finger can even be quite helpful: there are several cases that I can quickly think of where I use that exact technique to actually control (and counter-intuitively, slow down) a trill. I would not list them as them may not be applicable for another.
Yet, if being reliant on a mirror for all feedback, I would perhaps view this as incorrect and limit my ability to execute any particular passage.
Please make no inference that I dismiss the use of a mirror. ...simply consider that it is not always the final verdict.
Relaxation is another word to be approached with extreme care.
If we get to the heart of matters, controlled-tensing/relaxing is a bit more accurate. The connections of all the small muscles, tendons, ligaments etc.. in the arms and hands are indeed complex... and we execute movement in playing by using the opposed muscles in a myriad of combinations.
Total relaxation is impossible while playing; our hands and arms would simply fall limp at our sides. (....dropping those expensive instruments!!!)
Useful tension-- perhaps poise is a better blanket term-- seems to cover the situation more helpfully.
And I can little quantify the amount of relaxation in my own playing, less in visual observation of another, and further less in a photograph of yet another.
-Jason
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Author: bethmhil
Date: 2012-05-29 02:24
Well-said Jason. My teacher concentrated on this a LOT in my lesson this afternoon, and I have some different information that is hopefully helpful...
Yes, indeed keep the hands open. Indeed, keep them relaxed... but as Jason pointed out, relaxed is a subjective term. To me, being relaxed is more defined as the muscles not being flexed. If your muscles were not flexed while playing clarinet, your hand would flop towards the floor! The "feeling" that I and many others talk about is everything being "free"-- Flexed, but without tension. The shoulder, arm, wrist, fingers, and everything in between are all connected and are one unit... and thus, should move as one unit. When you play the clarinet, much more than your fingers do the work. Inhibiting the natural (necessary) movement that goes on is debilitating. If any part of your arm is tense or more flexed than necessary, then your fingers simply don't move as well, and habits like flat fingers may result.
I was playing a chromatic scale downward in my lesson today, and it wasn't even, especially in the left hand motion. My teacher kept telling me to relax, and I finally asked her what on earth she meant... staying relaxed is a really vague concept. Finally, she explained-- rather than putting so much energy into slamming my fingers down onto every single key and spring, she meant that I should do so with as little energy as possible... to allow my fingers to "float" over the keys, to "ride" the springs.
Keeping the fingers from slamming down on the keys is a different concept from flat fingers, but for me, this is the cause of my flat fingers.
Like Jason said, sometimes, flat fingers are not a bad thing... but, what exactly is the definition of "flat fingers"? For one person to another, this might actually not be the same. For me, flat fingers are also called "grudge" fingers by one of my colleagues... (she watches WAY too many horror movies). When I have "flat fingers", they hyperextend. Hyperextending makes them move really awkwardly and forces the top joints of my fingers to be almost frozen. Instead of being free (significantly different than being relaxed), the fingers are flexed, and thus are not free to move. I can feel that tension spread from my fingers into my wrist, through my forearm, elbow, and biceps, and up into my shoulder. I actually developed this tendency in piano lessons, and my teacher never forced me to break the habit.
For pianists, playing with curved fingers is a fundamental concept that promotes speed and lightness. For clarinetists, curved fingers are actually not appropriate at all, because obviously we could not cover the tone holes if we did that! So, like Jason said, flat fingers are actually good in some cases-- hyperextending fingers, not so much.
BMH
Illinois State University, BME and BM Performance
Post Edited (2012-05-29 03:48)
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Author: Buster
Date: 2012-05-29 03:32
bethmhil wrote:
> For clarinetists, curved fingers are actually not appropriate at
> all, because obviously we could not cover the tone holes if we
> did that! So, like Jason said, flat fingers are actually good
> in some cases-- hyperextending fingers, not so much.
--Regarding the typical definition of hyper-extension-- quite so!
That act, which denotes a joint being forced to extend rearwards past its designed range of motion, quite often results in injury. e.g. stretching or tearing of connective tissues.
--For a definition of what can comprise flat fingers, an actual illustration of the bone structure of the hand is quite necessary:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Interphalangeal_articulations_of_hand
I would loosely say that "flat-fingers" could be defined as a full extension of the 'distal interphalangeal joints', though other cases could be made.
--As for curved fingers being inappropriate for the clarinet, I would like to state that is not quite what I wished to convey.
There is a difference between a piano and clarinet- generally the portion of the finger striking the keys. I should think the curving of the fingers is applicable for both instruments, though the context and actual manner varies. (Not being a pianist, I could not speak of its boundaries of 'proper' finger form/motion.)
As a clarinetist, I find there is a large range of finger shapes and motions that can be applied. As long as the passage sounds as desired, and no physical harm is incurred, there really is no right or wrong. (And the application of wrist rotation is something that has yet to be stated, but can only add to the palette.)
--I also would like to state that you were quite right in questioning your teacher regarding "relax." I don't know that I agree with the explanation you were offered, but do say that all teachers need to be able to explain what they say. (Yet if what you heard was what you needed to hear, then I would say that she was 'correct'.)
I try to leave the word relax out of most discussions as it is often quite too vague, or even inappropriate.
-Jason
Post Edited (2012-05-29 03:54)
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Author: rgames
Date: 2012-05-29 03:59
People get confused on the concept of relaxation because they think it relates mostly to muscles. It does not.
The concept of relaxation has less to do with muscles and more to do with the brain. Muscular "relaxation" simply means that the muscles are open to motion; i.e. not "fixed" in one position. That is exactly what you want when you're trying to get your fingers to move quickly in precise coordination - they need to be free to move quickly through many different positions.
This concept is a basic concept in any endeavor that involves body motion - dancing, swinging a golf club, playing clarinet, whatever. If your muscles are tense, they will move less quickly and with less coordination.
It has been shown that the finger muscles of concert pianists are no different than non-pianists - the difference lies in the brain. For that reason, relaxation is more mental and less physical.
rgames
____________________________
Richard G. Ames
Composer - Arranger - Producer
www.rgamesmusic.com
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Author: bethmhil
Date: 2012-05-29 04:00
Yes! The "correct" finger curvature is quite different for everyone, for every finger shape and size. There can indeed be variations, just as long as there is no interference.
I am obviously not a pianist any longer, but when I studied, I was always taught "tips of the fingers", which is what I meant when comparing "piano fingers" as opposed to clarinet fingers. I don't know if professional pianists are taught that, and I can't say if my teacher was at all correct in saying this.
Regarding your information on hyperextension, this is terrifying! I'm not sure how I haven't injured myself yet...?!
BMH
Illinois State University, BME and BM Performance
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Author: Buster
Date: 2012-05-29 05:01
rgames wrote:
<< This concept is a basic concept in any endeavor that involves body motion - dancing, swinging a golf club, playing clarinet, whatever. If your muscles are tense, they will move less quickly and with less coordination. >>
I leave the terms tense/tension out of matters, in many cases, as they can carry negative connotations. ...many students are not equipped to properly digest the dreaded 'T' word.
But to delve into it a tad, there are infinite degrees of tension in a muscle, and the proper application is necessary if any given motion is to be successful. e.g. Functional clarinet posture does involve the tensing of certain muscles; they are needed to maintain the body in a ready state for action. These muscles are not tensed, or contracted, to their fullest degree, but a certain poise is needed. (The same goes for a golf swing.)
Relaxation, if dealt with as a conceptual term, can be used to refer solely to a mental state. Ready-alertness is also applicable.
But physiologically speaking, 'relaxation' has definable physical and psychological meanings. It might be better to leave the word out of teaching, unless accurately defined, than to have to go back and re-define it later.
bethmhil wrote:
> Regarding your information on hyperextension, this is
> terrifying! I'm not sure how I haven't injured myself yet...?!
You would almost certainly feel it. (If the cry I heard my dad let out when he did so to his knee is any indicator!!)
Hyper-extension involves an outside force acting on a joint. So take heart, you may be limiting technical-fluency with your finger position, but actual hyper-extension would be extremely difficult to accomplish!
-Jason
Post Edited (2012-05-29 05:02)
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Author: Bob Bernardo
Date: 2012-05-30 03:06
Well it's a really bad habit and a must to fix. With most people it's the right hand.
Playing fast will always be an issue, perhaps for some people it's not. Gennusa's right hand fingers were pretty flat. I wouldn't say totally flat yet he had very fast fingers.
I'd follow Eddie's suggestion and use the mirror when you are playing parts of the scales for your right hand. For me a missing mirror is sort of like not having a practice stand to hold the music.. Without the mirror it makes playing the horn very difficult if you wish to perfect your sound, technique, the position of the clarinet, and of course much more.
Needless to say you got some great information from your fellow musicians. I really can't add anything.
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