 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: bethmhil
Date: 2012-05-26 02:28
I suppose this happens, but I have been disgruntled with my mouthpiece setup for quite a while. Neither of my clarinet teachers have been much help because they don't pay a lot of attention to the tone I want to have, so I have basically been alone in this battle... I was playing on a Kaspar for a long while, but it made my tone bright and uncontrolled at loud dynamics. There was a gorgeous amount of color in terms of overtones in my tone, but it was almost too "colorful" with my natural embouchure. I switched to a Pyne, which was good, but was a bit too 'vanilla' for my taste-- I like color too much, I suppose.
I then switched to a Gennusa Excellente, and it was great... It was dark, warm, extraordinarily resonant... It gave me control with color, something I had wanted for so long. But, after a while, I began really noticing how restrictive it was in terms of dynamics... this made me begin to overcompensate, and my tone became incredibly bright and brittle when playing super-articulated passages and up in the altissimo register. Unfortunately, I managed to drop a chair after an ensemble placement audition because my tone was not as nice as it once was in previous semesters.
Sad and discouraged, I went to my local music store and tried every Vandoren mouthpiece they had-- the M30, M15, 5RV, 5RV Lyre, B40, M13, and the M13 Lyre. I was surprised to find the M13 Lyre to be similar to my Gennusa, but darker and less resonant... but controlled at every dynamic and basically every register! Thus, I bought it. Listening to a recording of the Mozart Requiem that the ISU Concert Choir and Orchestra performed, I love my tone very much... listening to my all-Poulenc recital from April, not so much. It is buzzy and stuffy, not at all what I want. And thus, I am unhappy with my tone yet again.
I know mouthpieces are extremely personal and are not interpreted the same between two or more people, but objectively... what are some thoughts on perhaps Richard Hawkins or Michael Lomax mouthpieces? Would it be possible for them to give me what I want in terms of control + color, or should I stay away from them in general? Are there others that might work better for what I'm looking for?
BMH
Illinois State University, BME and BM Performance
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Author: Jack Kissinger
Date: 2012-05-26 03:28
Perhaps it's time for you to sit down with a custom maker and have something tailored to your needs. One opportunity to find several in the same place at the same time will be Clarinetfest in Lincoln, Nebraska this summer.
Best regards,
jnk
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Author: Bob Bernardo
Date: 2012-05-26 04:36
Send me an email if you wish to talk about some good mouthpieces that are worth testing out.
savagesax@aol.com
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Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2012-05-26 11:52
Ok, I have been posting of late about pitch, so I don't want to sound like a broken record but......
Could the restricted sound of the Gennusa or the buzzy sound of the M13Lyre be a causation of trying to work the pitch in the context of the ensemble? I too have had the Gennusa and M13 (well, non lyre) and had noticed that the pitch was something that I had to finagle ALL the time such as throat F being low, or second ledger C and third ledger Eb being low. I didn't want to give up the response of the Gennusa but clearly I needed something tunable.
While waiting for a custom mouthpiece I decided to try the Masters CL4 and found that pitch had been a bigger problem for me with the Gennusa than I had thought. Now I am free to add color and dynamic at much wider dynamic ranges because I'm not struggling to compensate UP to pitch !!!!
The bottom line is that AIR will give you the color you want. When AIR becomes restricted.......... you lose options.
...................Paul Aviles
P.S. The Hawkins are higher pitch mouthpieces too.
Post Edited (2012-05-26 11:53)
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Author: bradfordlloyd
Date: 2012-05-26 11:59
I also liked an M13 for a time, but felt like it wasn't quite as "polished" and dark as I wanted my sound to be. I went with a Walter Grabner and have not been disappointed.
Since he's also local to you in Illinois, you might even work directly with him on a custom 'piece. I'm told he's a pleasure to work with!
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Author: kdk ★2017
Date: 2012-05-26 14:30
I have a couple of reactions to your original post.
(1) >"Neither of my clarinet
> teachers have been much help because they don't pay a lot of
> attention to the tone I want to have, so I have basically been
> alone in this battle..."
>
I'm not sure how to read this - are they not concerned about the tone *you* prefer (as distinct from the tone *they* want you to produce), or do they not (either of them) care especially what sound you're producing as long as the notes and rhythms are right?
(2)> Listening to a recording of the
> Mozart Requiem that the ISU Concert Choir and Orchestra
> performed, I love my tone very much... listening to my
> all-Poulenc recital from April, not so much. It is buzzy and
> stuffy, not at all what I want. And thus, I am unhappy with my
> tone yet again.
>
I'm not clear from what you've written about your series of mouthpiece experiments whether you've tried one of each or several and whether you've done your testing under real world playing conditions or mostly in a practice studio (and then been disappointed when the result in the real world didn't match up to the studio result).
The mouthpieces that you mention, except (maybe) for the Pyne, are mass-produced pieces that have a fair amount of inconsistency from specimen to specimen. If you tried 3 or 4 M13Ls or Excellentes you might find that one of them more than the others has more of the qualities you found attractive.
Also, reeds add a good deal of variability to the process. How did the M13L sound to you during the two performances? Did it sound buzzy, or different to you live when you performed the Poulenc recital? Poulenc in any case lends itself to more aggressive, colorful playing than the Mozart Requiem does (were you playing it on clarinets? - if you were using the mouthpiece on a basset horn, the comparison is even less valid). You may have chosen reeds for the Poulenc that were lighter and more flexible, which might sound less than optimal in a live recording. Did the mouthpiece *feel* stuffy when you were playing the recital? Reeds have, in my opinion (others may object), much more to do with a player's dynamic range than the mouthpiece does.
Sometimes you need to give yourself time to optimize the relationship among a mouthpiece, your reeds and your own physical approach. Certainly, recordings can be a valuable tool if the recording quality is high, but what you hear with your own ears as you play is what you will ultimately base your playing decisions on, so it's more important to be happy with the live sound as you perceive it.
Of course, other factors like tuning and responsiveness are also important and most people end up playing on a mouthpiece that represents for them the best compromise among the different factors involved.
Karl
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Author: bethmhil
Date: 2012-05-26 17:15
Thank you all for your responses!
Ok, Paul... I forgot, I did try the CL4 & CL5 when I tested Vandoren mouthpieces. They were a bit too bright for my taste. They almost seemed similar to a Kaspar...? Pitch was indeed much higher than I was used to on the CL4. Compared to even the M13 Lyre (13 series), my Gennusa was low in comparison, but I was able to make it work in a concert hall with mallet instruments & piano tuned to 442...? I'm still not entirely crazy about the M13L in ensemble settings compared to my Gennusa.
Karl, wonderful questions here. Unfortunately, you are right-- most of my play-testing and recording of mouthpieces has been done at home and in the practice room, and it definitely is not the same in real-world performing situations. In my spring recital in 2011, I loved my tone on the Gennusa. Later in in the Fall, my tone did not have the same qualities, or the flaws had worsened.
When I bought my Gennusa, I was sent a box of 7. The Pyne was my clarinet professor's and he didn't have another I could try. My other teacher has the Bel-Canto model of it, and she let me play on it soon after buying my M13L... it was buzzy and more constricted than my Gennusa!
You are also right about reed choice... I had much different reeds for the performance of the Mozart and for my Poulenc recital. I had a harder reed for the Mozart, and a softer reed for the Poulenc-- the recital hall, as compared to the gigantic concert hall, has a very "wet" sound to it, or that's what I've been told. Softer reeds generally tend to sound better in it than harder reeds, which is why I opted for the softer reed for the Poulenc recital. Out of curiosity, does the M13L generally sound better and darker with harder reeds? Should I learn to play on harder reeds?
BMH
Illinois State University, BME and BM Performance
Post Edited (2012-06-02 03:46)
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Author: kdk ★2017
Date: 2012-05-26 20:48
I don't know what for you is "harder" or "softer." Don Montanaro (retired Phila Orchestra Associate Principal), who had, I think, a large role in developing the Series 13 mouthpieces, apparently recommends (or did when last I heard) the M13Lyre with a #3-1/2 or #4 V12 to his students. The one professional player I know personally who uses it also uses #4 V12s. When I briefly played on a M13 Lyre, I used #4 V12s on it, and my students who use it play#3-1/2 V12s. I found it a little muffled, or "covered" sounding for my taste and gave it up fairly quickly, but it is reliable, responsive and relatively inexpensive, so I still recommend it to students.
I'm a little surprised myself, given your preference for a more colorful sound (which I share with you) that you would have landed on the Vandoren over the Gennusa. My first thought, based only on reading your two posts and your description of your second teacher's reaction to the results, is that maybe you should simply re-visit the Gennusa and try to figure out what to do to enable a wider dynamic range. Reeds that are too resistant can be difficult to play really forte, and reeds that tend to collapse can make a real piano or pianissimo difficult. Even within your best overall boxed strength, you still need to be selective based, sometimes, on what you're playing and need to be able to do.
You might even get good results by going all the way back to the Kaspar and sitting down with a skilled mouthpiece craftsman to see what magic might be worked to improve the control problems you felt when playing it.
Karl
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Author: bethmhil
Date: 2012-05-27 01:07
Unfortunately, the Kaspar that I previously used does not belong to me... it technically belongs to my university, so refacing is out. I recalled how much my professor liked my tone on the Kaspar, so I did try it sometime in January... was much brighter than I recalled.
I have considered trying to go back to my Gennusa. I don't know what about it or my embouchure changed so much, because I once was able to produce such a lovely tone on it. I talked to Ben Redwine in March, and he wonders if it might be too closed-- harder reeds don't solve the problem that I have with it, so it most-likely needs to be refaced. Unfortunately, he isn't in a position to come all the way to central Illinois to reface it for me. Is Walter Grabner the closest person who could reface it for me? Do you know how much it would cost?
BMH
Illinois State University, BME and BM Performance
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Author: mihalis
Date: 2012-05-27 02:09
Try Walter Grabner's Kaspar and I think you will be pleasantly surprised.
Mike.
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Author: TMHolstrom
Date: 2012-05-27 02:19
Beth,
In your initial post you mentioned a possible interest in Richard Hawkins mouthpieces. I currently play on a Richard Hawkins "Standard" and I love it. Pitch-wise it can ride a tiny bit sharp sometimes, but it is easily correctable. When I dealt with Mr. Hawkins it was a very pleasant experience and I received my mouthpiece in a very timely manner. If you contact him he may be willing to send out a few sample mouthpieces for you to try!
You may also consider Gregory Smith mouthpieces. I have several friends who play on his mouthpieces and, being from Chicago, he is very accessible to people in the area. Knowing the Smiths, they, too, may send you samples to try out if you contact them.
You may have indicated this in another response, but have you tried other reeds? I know from my experience with Kaspars (which isn't as much as you, most likely) that a well-balanced V-12 3.5 or stronger worked best. For the Hawkins I use Rue Lepic 3.5's. I would try experimenting with reeds extensively before changing mouthpieces: reeds are much cheaper and can make a huge difference!
Good luck!
-Tyler
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Author: Ed Palanker
Date: 2012-05-27 02:55
It is true that finding the right MP is very personal. Some people never find it, others find one and stick with it forever. When I studied with Russianoff he believed in finding the right MP for every student. He didn't favor any one type and encouraged trying as many as possible till you fouond the right one. I went through four or five while I studied with him. Settled on a Wells at the time for several years into my professional life. Later, on his recommendation, as a pro, I tried a Bay he had when I visited him and played that for some time, years later I changed to a different facing but still a Bay. After about 20 years I went to a Pyne for 4-5 years and then found a Morgan that I've been playing for 20 years now. My point, you change your concept over time or look for perfection in a MP which can be allusive for sure. It's important to find the right combination of reed and MP so try as many as you can until you find the right one. My Morgan is the best MP I've ever tried but it took a while to get used to it and find the right reed for me. It took time because I loved the tone at first but was not comfortable with the feel until i was able to match the right reed and strength now I love it, for 20 plus years. When I taught at Peabody I stocked over a dozen different MPs for my students to try and if none of those worked for them I order as many different types until we found the "perfect" match. Just keep looking until you find the right match, in the mean time try to learn to voice what you're using to the best of your ability because sometimes you have to make the MP sound as good as you can, it's not always the fault of your equipment. ESP eddiesclarinet.com
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Author: Ken Shaw ★2017
Date: 2012-05-27 03:02
Beth -
Bone conduction in your head makes it very difficult to evaluate your own tone. This is particularly true of the high partials, which make the tone sound "bright." When most people hear a recording of their tone, or even their speaking voice, they're surprised to hear how different it is from what they hear themselves. I would trust the recording of the Mozart Requiem more than what you hear in your head.
Ronald Reuben, the retired bass clarinetist of the Philadelphia Orchestra, talked at a master class about keeping energy in your tone. Trying to get a "dark" tone is nonsense, at least for orchestral work. To balance in an orchestra, your sound has to be bright and energetic, with strong high partials. He took a student's clarinet and demonstrated the difference between the sound the student was making (dark, unsupported, covered) and the essential "spirally," "ringing," concentrated orchestral tone.
Anthony Gigliotti said that at least for orchestral playing you need a tone with lots of energy – i.e., brightness. His tone had that with a vengeance. Unfortunately, bright tones do not record very well. Gigliotti, Alan Hacker and many others sounded much better in person than on recording. And in recordings of my own playing, what I thought was warm and dark turned out to be covered and muddy.
Finally, making a good tone is not enough. You must make many good tones. See the wonderful article by the great oboist Robert Bloom http://test.woodwind.org/clarinet/BBoard/read.html?f=1&i=94788&t=94788. You can always take out some brightness by rolling your lower lip in over your teeth. Going the other way is difficult.
You're at IU, right? Go into the IU Auditorium http://www.indiana.edu/~trombone/hallIUAUD.htm on the stage, station a friend with good ears at the back of the orchestra level all the way under the balcony, or at the top row of the balcony, and play all kinds of things. I heard Gigliotti play the Pines of Rome solo at pppp, giving it the energy to carry all the way out. Ralph McLane and David Weber used to take turns sitting in a small closet stuffed with clothing, competing to see who could have the most "presence" outside.
Learn to do everything.
Ken Shaw
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Author: Buster
Date: 2012-05-27 03:05
Ed Palanker wrote:
> you have to make the MP sound as good as you can, it's not always the
> fault of your equipment.
Amen.
The best piece of advice in this thread.
-Jason
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Author: bethmhil
Date: 2012-05-27 03:27
I suppose my tone has too much energy, Ken. It is not something in my head-- I hear so much brightness in recordings, and my clarinet professor also hears it. For the most part, my M13L fixes it-- I guess I just need to keep finding ways to continue fixing it. I know I have problems that a new mouthpiece would not solve-- seriously, I know. I was just curious about the Hawkins & Lomax mouthpieces is all.
If I had time and didn't have auditions and playing opportunities going on, I wish I could make myself play on perhaps a stock Buffet mouthpiece, just to force myself to find ways to make it sound good.
PS: I go to Illinois State University-- not quite the caliber that is Indiana University.
BMH
Illinois State University, BME and BM Performance
Post Edited (2012-06-02 03:44)
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Author: Paul Globus
Date: 2012-05-28 13:48
Ms. Hildenbrand --
Take the same mouthpiece and reed set up, give it to 10 players, and you'll hear (if you listen closely) 10 different results. Conclusion: the sound isn't actually in the mouthpiece at all.
Your own concept and technical ability is what creates the sound you are hearing. And as others have pointed out, you are not an objective listener.
You may experience different comfort levels on different mouthpieces, but the sound that comes out will (ultimately) always be the concept of an ideal clarinet sound that resides in your own head.
Pick a mouthpiece that feels most comfortable to you in terms of response and intonation and then play on it. There is really nothing more to it than that.
Good luck
Paul Globus
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Author: Ed Palanker
Date: 2012-05-28 17:33
"Ronald Reuben, the retired bass clarinetist of the Philadelphia Orchestra, talked at a master class about keeping energy in your tone. Trying to get a "dark" tone is nonsense, at least for orchestral work. To balance in an orchestra, your sound has to be bright and energetic, with strong high partials. He took a student's clarinet and demonstrated the difference between the sound the student was making (dark, unsupported, covered) and the essential "spirally," "ringing," concentrated orchestral tone."
I totally disagree with Ron on this point. Could I say, Ricardo Morales, Frank Cohen just to name a few, there are many others as well. It's the blend and the ability to have one's tone carry, it doesn't have to be bright to do that. Oh yea, me too. ESP
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Author: Vubble3
Date: 2012-05-28 18:27
I have a Lomax mouthpiece. I have the classic A3. I personally think it's like the vandoren, but very dark and warm, and somewhat resistant. honestly, i would recommend it.
Buffet Bb R13 A RC Prestige
buffet chadash and moennig barrels
Lomax classic lig
b40 lyre
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Author: ABerry
Date: 2012-05-30 20:38
Hi Beth,
One mouthpiece maker that no one has mentioned yet is Morrie Backun, in Vancouver, B.C. He has collaborated with Ricardo Morales of the Philadelphia Orchestra, to produce some fantastic mouthpieces. Not to mention, excellent barrels and clarinets as well. Check out the Backun Music website, there are several mouthpieces as well as barrels, and they have a great trial program.
I used a Walter Grabner K14 (another excellent mouthpiece), for a few years, switched to a Morrales-Backun (MOBA) traditional mouthpiece about 5 years ago. Both pieces played very well, I found the MOBA to have a fuller (more overtones), richer sound.
Allan
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Author: Scaysie
Date: 2012-05-30 22:15
Hi Beth
I must put in a plug for Brad Behn at this stage. I play one of his signature range of mouthpieces.Although expensive , it is everything he said it would be.
I found him a delight to work with even though though we are on different sides of the Pacific Ocean !
A glance at his website will be very informative at least........
-Pete B.M.E.
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Author: JamesOrlandoGarcia
Date: 2012-06-01 17:20
Not for nothing, but most of those who are winning jobs at the moment are playing Vandoren Mouthpieces. If those players choose Vandoren to help them achieve music on the highest levels, I think that means something.
Pitch is the most important aspect of a mouthpiece. If you want to test the tone quality of a mouthpiece, do it in the concert hall.
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Author: MarlboroughMan
Date: 2012-06-01 19:03
Sometimes we get too caught up in trying to acheive an "ideal" sound. This is particularly true of classical clarinetists, but it can happen to anyone--we come up with some lofty sound concept in our mind's ear and attempt to live up to it. Often it's an impractical mental sound-image (extrememly dark, yet projecting strongly--centered and diffuse at the same time--etc--our imaginations can be self-contradictory).
Singers don't tend to get caught in this trap--they identify what their voice IS, and take things from there. The first test for them is range (a bass cannot suddenly transform into a tenor--there are physical limits that must be acknowledged). But it doesn't end there. Some tenors, for instance, will only have success in a certain repertoire, and they must focus there. Not every tenor can sing Siegfried--in fact not many at all can.
To a lesser degree this is still true of the clarinet. Depending on the shape of your oral cavity, your lung capacity, your dental structure and even perhaps your hearing, you will be predisposed to play in certain ways. It's important to find out first WHO YOU ARE as a player. Then take it from there.
I'd suggest recording yourself playing in a relaxed manner, physically and otherwise. When you listen to the playback, don't compare it to your "ideal" sound (which might be either impossible or impractical), but try to think of what respected professional sound you resemble most. From there you can start to shape and hone your basic sound--but realize you probably won't be able to "change it" into anything you want, by equipment or otherwise.
It's easy to say "be yourself." In reality, becoming the best YOU is a tough road. But if you try this, I think you'll find playing more rewarding and less frustrating. And in the end you'll sound like you--not some pale, stressed out, generic imitation.
Eric
******************************
The Jazz Clarinet
http://thejazzclarinet.blogspot.com/
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Author: bethmhil
Date: 2012-06-01 20:35
Eric, that is my exact philosophy, as a matter of fact-- I don't want to sound like everyone else, I want to sound like me!
As compared to others in my studio, I stick out (like a sore thumb sometimes!) because I play with much more color in my tone than everyone else... some like it, others don't. I'm learning to accept my tone for what it is, since the general core tone does not change much from mouthpiece to mouthpiece. But, I'm just trying to do whatever I need to do to polish it.
Thank you all for your suggestions. I will ask both my teachers about the mouthpieces you mentioned and go from there.
BMH
Illinois State University, BME and BM Performance
Post Edited (2012-06-02 03:31)
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Author: JamesOrlandoGarcia
Date: 2012-06-01 23:12
I agree to an extent. HOWEVER I feel like we select our gear to achieve the sound that is *within* us. I finally feel like I have found my voice after switching to the my CSGII clarinets. I spent most of my clarinet life playing clarinets that never really enabled me to be myself.
James Garcia
Bass Clarinet/Clarinet III, Des Moines Symphony Orchestra
Post Edited (2012-06-02 05:23)
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Author: MarlboroughMan
Date: 2012-06-01 23:36
Agreed. My story is similar--you need to find the equipment that helps you best be you. It can be a long and frustrating search (it was for me). But my comment was regarding that feeling of "nothing" working. When that happens, sometimes it's best to step back and remember who we are, and maybe see if we haven't strayed too deep into idealism.
Eric
******************************
The Jazz Clarinet
http://thejazzclarinet.blogspot.com/
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Author: Notes II
Date: 2012-06-07 17:40
I too have tried everything just about out there all the main Vandorens but after some years I now see what musicians that have helped me triedt to teach me about mouthpieces, I don't know if you can understand this but first one has to develope your mouth or amiture I think they call it.
I play only by ear and with others sometimes Jazz or Classical I play what I feel and once you get to the point of reconizing how to feel and whats in your heart you will pair the two an then only then will your true sound come to light.
when this happens you will manipulate the tone and then you will be in a better position to make a choice between mouthpieces.
Most have found that by this time they have to have a custom one made for them.
I have been very lucky I found an old clarinet in a pawn shop that had a Gennuso GE Excellente mouthpiece which I kept on the side for along time before one day putting it on my stick and since then that has been my reed holder ever since I have learned to manipulate so many tones from it and with it my heart and my feelings blend normally in with it.
Just stay with it and keep making the tone with what you have aslong as you can find volume the rest will come
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Author: Dgiacobb
Date: 2012-06-11 01:08
This thread is pretty dead, by I've found that one can change a great deal of tone with one mouthpiece by experimenting with reeds... I'm on an M30D, and I use 3.5+-4.0's out of the V12, 56, and occasionally blue box Vandorens...
Sometimes I new to be brighter, so I just adjust the reed... Sometimes I need to be darker, so I use a reed with more heart. The mouthpiece, for me, is just a medium to get my tone, not the ends.
Dan
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Author: Dgiacobb
Date: 2012-06-11 01:09
This thread is pretty dead, by I've found that one can change a great deal of tone with one mouthpiece by experimenting with reeds... I'm on an M30D, and I use 3.5+-4.0's out of the V12, 56, and occasionally blue box Vandorens...
Sometimes I new to be brighter, so I just adjust the reed... Sometimes I need to be darker, so I use a reed with more heart. The mouthpiece, for me, is just a medium to get my tone, not the ends.
Dan
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Author: cigleris
Date: 2012-06-11 07:04
Sounds to me that your letting the mouthpiece play YOU. How about YOU play the mouthpiece.
Peter Cigleris
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Author: Old Geezer
Date: 2012-06-12 00:13
The M13 lyre seemed to suit you buy one and work with it. After you've learned all the scales, the Rose 32 and others, you'll love it.
The best sounding mouthpiece is the one you control.
The idea of trying out half a dozen mouthpieces one after another in a music store is really?
Clarinet Redux
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Author: jmsa
Date: 2012-06-12 00:27
Brad Behn is an artists artist when it comes to mouthpieces. He will taylor one that is perfect for your needs. You can contact him at 405-651-6063.
jmsa
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Author: Cl69
Date: 2012-08-24 20:25
Hi Beth!
If you really like the Kaspar style mouthpieces,
I recommend you contact with Bradford Behn and try his new Vintage mouthpiece.
I recently bought one of this (B-series). It`s fantastic sound and resonance!
Cool!!! I so happy!  ))
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