 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: Rob Vitale
Date: 2012-05-22 03:20
So I'm a young professional clarinetist who also does instrument repairs for a few local music stores. I recently did an overhaul on a vintage Buffet clarinet and I had a difference of opinion with by boss as to which was the preferred way to set up the finger hole keys on the clarinet. As for who argued for what is not relevant.
The question at hand is, should the finger key holes be setup to be even with the tone holes, or should they sit a little bit higher once pressed???
I would think this topic to be a personal preference. I would also like to relate this topic to rental instruments (clarinets) would either raised or level finger key holes help or hurt a young student on the instrument??
Thanks for reading! All opinions and insight are welcome!!!
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Author: JamesOrlandoGarcia
Date: 2012-05-22 03:36
Right at. Above is the sign of a clarinet that was not adjustment correctly. I've never been handed a clarinet that was serviced by one of the top guys that had the rings noticeably above the holes but they certainly weren't below either.
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Author: Buster
Date: 2012-05-22 04:00
JamesOrlandoGarcia wrote:
> Right at. Above is the sign of a clarinet that was not
> adjustment [sic] correctly. I've never been handed a clarinet that
> was serviced by one of the top guys that had the rings
> noticeably above the holes but they certainly weren't below
> either.
I also have never been handed a clarinet that was serviced by one of the "top guys" with rings above the tone holes, except when I asked them to do so. Which is every-time in my case.
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Author: clarnibass
Date: 2012-05-22 04:15
I don't think anyone would ever want the rings lower than the chimneyes. Even the fattest widest fingers have a bit of a convex shape.
I agree it's personal preference. Even for a preference issue like this I like to look as technical as possible, in a "scientific" way more or less. Forget it's a clarinet player for a moment and consider the "mechanism", how it works and how the shape of the finger affects it.
The best ring height is determined by how much difference in height there is between the part of the finger that presses the ring and the part that seals the chimney. This is determined by the shape and width of the finger and also by how hard it is. A wider and flatter finger will have less difference in height between these two areas. A harder finger will also have essentially less height because it will be worse in accomodating these two heights. It can also be different for different rings and/or different fingers, even on the same hand.
So someone with very fat, wide, hard and flatter fingers will most likely want the rings pretty much level with the chimneyes. Someone with thin, soft and very convexy fingers will probably need the rings higher.
Unless the player has an unusual size/shape to their fingers, I adjust the rings to how I like them (I consider my fingers are probably "average") and then they check and adjust to them if necessary. Most often no more adjustment is necessary. Occasionally I adjust them to slightly higher or lower. Sometimes, not so often, I adjust to relatively high (more common with young kids with small hands). Almost never anyone wants them level.
I never adjust them by measuring, but I checked just to see. 0.0mm is level. I'd say around 1.2mm is high. By far most people prefer about 0.4mm-0.8mm above the chineyes. A difference of 0.2mm is significant and adjustments are probably done to less (I'd say about 0.1mm, though for most people a difference like this wouldn't really matter IME).
By the way, I wouldn't be sure what players mean when they say the rings are level or higher etc. By far most players (including top players) have no idea how high the rings are, only if it feels comfortable. As long as it's comfortable they don't bother thinking about it. They don't really notice 0.4mm above the ring is not level. It looks pretty close.
Post Edited (2012-05-22 04:21)
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Author: Buster
Date: 2012-05-22 04:29
Rob,
When adjusting an instrument for rental to a young student, a tricky situation arises.
A youngin' is unable to assess whether an instrument is in correct adjustment for their physical structure. Some may need the rings set a bit above the raised tone-holes; some even....
Unfortunately, it often depends on the input of an apt teacher, or visual assessment by a knowledgeable tech, to determine what is appropriate.
I can commiserate with you having to argue with your boss over which is "correct" indirectly; I have never been employed as a tech.
Directly, I can say that when I worked with young students, I often sent them back to have their instruments re-adjusted. At times, even that was ineffective and I ended up doing the work myself.
Beginning clarinetists truly need instruments that are in the best condition/adjustment possible- they often cannot determine if a problem is due to their clarinet or themselves.
I applaud you in inquiring what would be most optimal, but do not envy your situation in fighting with your boss as the answer depends on each individual situation. Thankfully I have not had to have those fights in some years!
(If my feet were held to the fire, I would say that many young students benefited having the rings set higher than the tone-holes. Yet even at that, the degree to which they are raised is dependent on the age/physical structure of each youngster.)
-Jason
Post Edited (2012-05-22 06:05)
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2012-05-22 05:06
I generally set the ring heights so they're fractionally higher than the chimneys (up to a maximum of 0.5mm higher depending on the player's fingers) and aim to make them that same height around the entire circumference which is easier said than done with some clarinets, so some bending has to be done to get them right.
My reasoning for setting them slightly higher is to be sure the pad closes fully as setting the rings completely flush or below the chimneys may cause the pad not to close immediately or at all - especially if using cork pads which have little to no give in them. It's vitally important that the rings sit slightly higher than the chimneys if the player has narrow fingers or small hands, but again they should be set to around 0.5mm maximum.
If the pad installed in the vent key is particularly soft or spongy, then after a while the rings can sink below the level of the chimneys as the pad compresses if they're set to be flush with them.
On a similar subject relating to ring keys, some techs have their own ideas how much the ring keys should open above the chimneys - I think this is irrelevant as it's down the the venting of the vent pad. I was told by a local repairer that the lowest edge of the rings shouldn't open beyond the height of the chimney, but that again is asking for trouble as the thickness (depth) of ring keys vary from make to make as do the internal shape - some makers have thicker rings than others and some (eg. Selmer) have bevelled inner edges. But in any case, the venting of the ring key pad is the most important factor here.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: tictactux ★2017
Date: 2012-05-22 08:19
Chris P wrote:
> If the pad installed in the vent key is particularly soft or spongy, then after a
> while the rings can sink below the level of the chimneys as the pad
> compresses if they're set to be flush with them.
For the "ring pads" I often find myself reverting to a "soft" synthetic pad; this allows for some leeway in the ring height (which I like to be ~0.4mm above the chimneys. I have round finger tips and am an "arched fingers" player). Nonetheless those pads hold up surprisingly well, my oldest ones are about six years old and still sealing fine with no noticeable compression past a certain initial degree.
--
Ben
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Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2012-05-22 08:54
Very interesting topic. I learned to adjust the rings VERY early on (and there is some debate as well on HOW.......I'm a bender). As stated well above it depends on the size of the player's fingers AS WELL as the attitude of approach (highly curved fingers with more of the tips coming down is one way).
Having larger hands, I've always tended towards flat across the chimneys for all rings, but lately I vary this height depending on the particular tone hole and how I place that finger. But also as stated above, below the level of the chimney NEVER works (for me) !!!!
...............Paul Aviles
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Author: jbutler ★2017
Date: 2012-05-22 13:09
I concur with Chris P. This is the way I was taught to set up the clarinet and have never had a complaint yet. I do always adjust to whatever preference the performer wishes but can only recall one client that wanted them higher and one that wanted them at or below the chimney.
j butler
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Author: Tobin
Date: 2012-05-22 13:25
I have moderately narrow fingertips -- if the rings are beneath the chimney they won't function for me. Compounding the issue, I play with my fingers pretty curved.
The above comments for beginning clarinetists are right on -- the rings often need to be above the chimney for children.
James
Gnothi Seauton
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Author: Rob Vitale
Date: 2012-05-22 13:35
Hi all,
Thank you for your responses. I just broke out the caliper on my clarinet and I'm finding that the key rings are roughly .3-.6mm's above the tone holes. I would generalize that to be roughly even with the tone holes. Anytime the rings are higher then that I think it feels uncomfortable to play. For me, I can tell if the rings are set to the ballpark correct height just by simply trilling the keys. Especially in the altissimo register. If the trill lacks an even quality between the two notes, the rings are typically too high.
The point that I needed to make here is that this topic is not a black and white issue. It varies. I was told that by setting the key rings even with with chimney's that I was wrong. The basis for which was supported by a brand new Yamaha student model clarinet (china) fresh out of the box which had a vastly different finger hole key height set for each key, oh and a bridge key mechanism that was setup less than perfect.
The issue at hand was, I did an overhaul for a customer on his buffet clarinet. The clarinet was in storage for a number of years and the customer did not play as well for that time. I noticed that the rings were set very high due to thick pads. I set the clarinet up the way mine is (roughly .3mm-.6mm raised) or what I would consider to be "even". Long story short customer didn't like it. So It took a whole 10mins to raise the key heights again. My Boss was not at all pleased with this.
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Author: clarnibass
Date: 2012-05-22 14:15
A few things...
>> I'm finding that the key rings are roughly .3-.6mm's above the tone holes. I would generalize that to be roughly even with the tone holes. <<
Roughly, yes. IME about 0.2mm difference in ring height is significant so I would say 0.3mm-0.6mm is definitely not "even" with the chimneys. However this is approx the height almost all players prefer.
>> I was told that by setting the key rings even with with chimney's that I was wrong. <<
The first problem here is that you didn't set them even with the chimneys. So if anyone considers 0.3mm-0.6mm above the chimneys "even" then it is possible they don't notice small but significant differences...
The second is that you set the rings higher than the chimneys to what almost all players prefer. I guess your boss and this player are both an exception. People's fingers are different but most are not drastically different at all.
>> The basis for which was supported by a brand new Yamaha student model clarinet <<
A new clarinet (especially a cheaper model but not necessarily) is a poor model for any setup issue. Some are actually very good in certain ways, but nothing on a new clarinet is necessarily a sign that it's the best way to do it. IME a lot of new clarinets comes with too high rings. A lot less come with too low rings.
>> Long story short customer didn't like it. <<
Question/suggestion: Did you immediately tell them that you corrected the height of the rings? If you did, it might have been better to let them play it first without telling them that. Sometimes people have all sorts of psychological issues and by telling someone you lowered the ring it will make them think they prefer them higher. some people are just a bit fanatic abotu changes in their instruments, even if it was never right in the first place and it would have been better for them if it was different.
Of course it's entirely possible that this particular player just likes the rings a little higher than most other players. No problem with that.
>> So It took a whole 10mins to raise the key heights again. My Boss was not at all pleased with this. <<
I guess it's a different type of shop. I often sit with someone much longer than 10 minutes. That's the advantage of not having a boss... I guess it's a different story if your boss wants you to get the huge pile of other instruments waiting to be repaired. So I'm not sure what you can do. Maybe your boss is a type of person that can realize they may have been wrong if you find enough evidence to support your claim?
The only thing I can suggest is... why did it take 10 minutes to raise the rings? Did you have to go back and forth between you adjusting them and the player checking? Was he checking for a while each time?
If I'm changing the height of the rings it usually takes about a minute or maybe 2 minutes if it's slow. The player checking and going back and forth can add some seconds (almost all players take a few seconds to tell if it's good). I guess an extremely slow session of this would take 3-4 minutes.
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Author: Rob Vitale
Date: 2012-05-22 14:53
Clarnibass,
Yes, It was a back and forth checking of the clarinet with the customer. Amongst some clarinet conversation as well for good PR. End of the story is, the client was pleased.
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Author: Bob Bernardo
Date: 2012-05-22 16:55
"should the finger key holes be setup to be even with the tone holes, or should they sit a little bit higher once pressed??? "
No - a shade higher. It's that simple.
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Author: mvjohnso
Date: 2012-05-22 17:10
As low as possible without effecting the tuning of the pad cups that the ring keys are connected too. At least that's how I prefer them, but I have big fat hands. Also, there is less motion/effort involved with pressing said keys. Have had them set up higher before I did the repairs myself, always found that it hindered my playing (in a slight way). But, it is all a matter of preference.
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2012-05-22 17:16
If the spring tension is set reasonably light, you shouldn't have any problem closing the ring key vent pads at all provided the pads are seated properly and there isn't any excessive slop in the mechanism. I don't understand why some clarinets (eg. Yamaha) have the ring keys sprung heavily so you're consciously having to close them along with closing the tonehole.
You shouldn't feel as though you're having to close the ring keys when placing any fingers down on them - you're simply opening and closing a tonehole and the rings should operate smoothly and almost unconsiously along with the simple action of placing or lifting your fingers.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
Post Edited (2012-05-22 17:41)
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Author: Hurstfarm
Date: 2012-05-22 18:19
Some good comments. It's a balance between too low, with the risk that pads don't seal properly, particularly if they compress with wear, and too high, which could mean the fingers don't form a proper seal over the rings, particularly in fast passage work. Personal preference is to set the rings a smidge higher than the chimneys, the feel of which also helps centre the pads of the fingers over the tone holes - perhaps also helpful for less experienced players.
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Author: Rob Vitale
Date: 2012-05-22 19:37
Well, I think that this feed has been helpful. Before the horse gets beaten dead. I Really like that Chris P. Gave a measurement in mm for height. Just so happens that after measure my own keys that they are within the specs that he gave, which is plenty good enough for me.
I think that for a good general rule of thumb, the key should lay .3mm to .5mm higher than the chimneys. From that they can be altered upon request or preference.
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Author: donald
Date: 2012-05-22 20:50
Many good replies here- from my experience (and said above) there is an element of personal preference, mine being the rings being slightly higher than the tonehole chimney. As everyone (techs included, in my experience) seems to have a very differing idea as to what "slightly" is, actually measuring this distance and specifying this at overhaul time is a good idea.
What i CAN NOT abide is when the rings are not parallel with the top of the tonehole chimney- a classic example being when slightly thicker pads are installed so that the ring is flush on the side closest to the pivot, but higher on the further side. This seems to be more common on the lower joint than the upper joint, and a very fine repair shop in NZ have in the past been quite defensive when i pointed this out. Their repairs were in all other regards excellent, but apparently I was slightly insane for bringing this to their attention.
dn
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