 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: rs11gps
Date: 2012-05-19 06:06
I just purchased an antique Penzel-Mueller clarinet, and am fishing for insights from you all.
First, it is an 'Artist' model, Eb, made of grenadilla, and the keys are either heavily silver plated, or sterling. The bell ring and barrel rings are stamped Sterling.
The length of the single-piece body is a little less than 13-1/2 inches (end-of-tenon to end-of-tenon). The tenons have metal ends.
It came with two barrels: 41.5mm and 34mm. The bell is 81mm long with a 71mm flare.
The bore at the top of the joint is ~14mm (same as the barrels), the bore at the bell end of the joint is ~19mm (conical?).
The body and case are marked U.S.N. Obviously an old Navy instrument. A note in the case claimed it was from the Spanish-American War era (1898).
Reading the bits of Penzel-Mueller history I've been able to find makes me doubt the 1898 claim. As I understand it, it wasn't until the 1920's that the name was marked "Penzel-Mueller" instead of Penzel-Muller or Penzel & Muller?
Also, I am not sure an Artist model was made before 1920?
It is going to the technician tomorrow for rehab to playing condition. Any comments or added information? Thanks.
This project looks to be about as fun as my Buffet 1908 Model 8 was.
Post Edited (2012-05-19 06:27)
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Author: rs11gps
Date: 2012-05-19 06:22
I tried to upload a picture or two, but the message system here merely recycles back to the message page when I select Add Attachments.
Anyone know how to add a photo? Thank.
Post Edited (2012-05-19 06:23)
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Author: SteveG_CT
Date: 2012-05-19 08:47
rs11gps wrote:
> First, it is an 'Artist' model, Eb, made of grenadilla, and the
> keys are either heavily silver plated, or sterling. The bell
> ring and barrel rings are stamped Sterling.
> The body and case are marked U.S.N. Obviously an old Navy
> instrument. A note in the case claimed it was from the
> Spanish-American War era (1898).
>
> Reading the bits of Penzel-Mueller history I've been able to
> find makes me doubt the 1898 claim. As I understand it, it
> wasn't until the 1920's that the name was marked
> "Penzel-Mueller" instead of Penzel-Muller or Penzel & Muller?
> Also, I am not sure an Artist model was made before 1920?
I suspect you must have bought the P-M Eb that sold on ebay last week. It's definitely not from 1898 nor was it used during the Spanish-American War. Sellers frequently make outlandish claims about instruments they know little if anything about in an attempt to drive up prices.
The logo on the instrument indicates that it was one of the later Artist models as "Artist" is written in large script rather than the much smaller script used on the earlier ones. Most likely this one dates from the 1940's to the early 1950's. I have a similar late Artist model in Bb (coincidentally also a former USN instrument) that is a decent player. By this point in time the "Artist" model was P-M's upper-intermediate model while it was a pro model in earlier years.
With P-M clarinets the quality can be rather variable. The earlier ones (pre-1940) seem to be more consistently of good quality. The later models tend to show evidence of cutting corners (flimsier keys, questionable plating, generally lower quality worksmanship). Hopefully the fact that your instrument has solid sterling bell and tenon rings means that it was manufactured with more attention to detail and will be a good player. Be sure to let us know how it plays after the overhaul!
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Author: bradfordlloyd
Date: 2012-05-19 12:05
As I am a fan of P-Ms, I was watching that horn! Let us know how the overhaul goes...I'm anxious to know how it plays!
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Author: rs11gps
Date: 2012-05-19 15:48
Thanks. Yes, I got it from the Gold & Silver shop. Their ad was generally accurate. I can't complain. Only the old note IN the case mentioned a claimed age... it was probably not placed there by them. I had already assumed it was manufactured closer to WWII.
Good news/bad news..... the keywork is excellent, the wood body is excellent. Of course, all of the pads and corks will be replaced. I think it will be a good player, and worth the expense of rehab. Decent wood Eb's are really getting pricey these days!
The bad news: a number of the keywork screws are corroded and/or broken. It will be a bear to get them out. I may have to shop around for a tech that has solid experience pulling the keywork on vintage horns.
I'll let you know how it goes.
Post Edited (2012-05-19 16:13)
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Author: bradfordlloyd
Date: 2012-05-20 01:25
FWIW, I've had great luck with Jeremy Soule at The Vintage Clarinet Doctor. He has resurrected several of my vintage horns that I didn't think could be brought back.
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Author: rs11gps
Date: 2012-05-20 04:46
Thank you. Do you have any contact information for him? I will hear back from my tech here in Oregon on Monday or Tuesday. It would be a great backup.
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Author: rs11gps
Date: 2012-05-20 19:30
Thanks for the suggestion. He answered my email.
His cost to remove the broken screws and rods is not a cost I can afford. I will have to hope my local tech can do it, or I can locate a skilled machinist familiar with similar mechanisms.
Sad, but I may end up parting this horn out. That's the risk with buying without having the chance to examine it. At least I didn't pay that much.
Post Edited (2012-05-20 19:33)
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Author: bradfordlloyd
Date: 2012-05-20 20:30
Oh, I'm sorry that didn't work out....I have always found Jeremy's rates to be quite a bit below my local techs (then again, I live in Chicago), and his skill at vintage horns and their intricacies to be outstanding. He brought back to life a set of Penzel-Muellers (Bb and A) of mine that I play pretty regularly now. It wasn't "cheap", but it was well worth it in my mind!
Good luck!
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Author: SteveG_CT
Date: 2012-05-20 20:45
rs11gps wrote:
> Thanks for the suggestion. He answered my email.
>
> His cost to remove the broken screws and rods is not a cost I
> can afford. I will have to hope my local tech can do it, or I
> can locate a skilled machinist familiar with similar
> mechanisms.
>
> Sad, but I may end up parting this horn out. That's the risk
> with buying without having the chance to examine it. At least I
> didn't pay that much.
>
Don't lose hope yet. As long as nobody has buggered the heads on the screws yet it probably won't be that big of a deal to get them out. I suggest going to your local hardware store and buying some penetrating oil. The best stuff I've seen on the market is called "PB Blaster". It usually comes in an aerosol can but you can just spray a little into a cup for this project. Apply a small drop to both ends of the screw as well as the ends of the key tube. I usually use a needle for doing this. Try to avoid getting any of the oil on the wood if possible.
Most of the time a stuck screw is due to rust binding on the inside of the key tube. Re-apply the penetrating oil once or twice per day and periodically check to see if the screw has broken free. You can also try applying heat to the offending key tube with a soldering iron or a lighter (don't overdo it and be careful not to scorch the wood). It may take a long time (multiple days in some cases) for things to free up so be patient. Using these steps I've had a very high success rate in removing stuck screws.
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Author: rs11gps
Date: 2012-05-20 22:37
Thank you. I may try that. I have not heard of PB Blaster before.
Right now, the clarinet is in the shop. The tech will not look at it until tomorrow... I should hear something soon after.
There are just a handful of screws and rods that need attention... not all of them. I will find a local machinist and see if they can be safely removed, drill & tapped out, or cut. It sounds like it will be easier (and vastly cheaper) to replace them with parts from a donor-horn, then have them made.
So, I'm now on the hunt for a junked/broken PM from the 20's to 40's.
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Author: SteveG_CT
Date: 2012-05-21 03:17
rs11gps wrote:
> There are just a handful of screws and rods that need
> attention... not all of them. I will find a local machinist and
> see if they can be safely removed, drill & tapped out, or cut.
> It sounds like it will be easier (and vastly cheaper) to
> replace them with parts from a donor-horn, then have them made.
>
> So, I'm now on the hunt for a junked/broken PM from the 20's to
> 40's.
Worst case you will have to cut the keys off with a jewelers saw. Once the keys are off you can just soak them in penetrating oil and then press out the remaining piece of rod from the key barrel. Removing the ends of the screw from the posts should be relatively trivial. If you need to go this route it will be necessary to replace the material on the key barrels that was removed by the jewelers saw. Ideally you would want to solder extensions onto either end of the key barrels and then file them to the correct size but if cost is a major concern you could just make "washers" from a piece of appropriately sized brass tubing and then install them without soldering. It might be a bit ugly but it would be functional at least.
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Author: rs11gps
Date: 2012-05-21 04:41
Thanks Steve. I had thought of something similar, but I am still pulling for the tech's abilities coaxing them out.
If it came to drastic measures: cutting the rod through near to the post, rotating the post, sliding the key off (they all move, so I assume none are frozen to the rods), should allow good access to the rod with minimal loss.
An alternate might be drilling in from the rod-end, through the post-hole, until the rod come free, then rotate the post, etc. This would take a really steady clamp and a strong bit. That would be the machinist's call at that point.
I'll have a better idea of the plan in a few days.
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Author: SteveG_CT
Date: 2012-05-21 06:18
rs11gps wrote:
> If it came to drastic measures: cutting the rod through near
> to the post, rotating the post, sliding the key off (they all
> move, so I assume none are frozen to the rods), should allow
> good access to the rod with minimal loss.
A good way to see if the key is frozen to the rod screw is to observe the slotted end of the rod screw when you work the key. If you see the slot rotating with the key then it is stuck due to rust inside the key barrel. Most likely this is the case. The only time I have seen a rod bind within a post was in a case where the post had been deformed.
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Author: rs11gps
Date: 2012-05-21 22:57
I don't have the clarinet with me to look. It is something I will check if the tech prices the repair out of a range reasonable for this horn.
I think it can and will be a great Eb, but I can't invest $500 or more in labor just to remove the rods & screws. At that point it'll have to come back to me or a machinist.
I have pads, corks and adjustment yet to go! And, my trusty Vito Eb is standing by to practice with... built like a tank.
Thanks for the advice. I'll take any I get.
Post Edited (2012-05-21 22:59)
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Author: rs11gps
Date: 2012-05-22 05:44
While I'm waiting to hear from the repair tech, take a look at how my 1908 Buffet model 8 turned out. Do a search on this Bulletin Board for my ID rs11gps. Pick the message that is titled "Help ID an Antique Buffet".
I was able to upload pictures in that thread.
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Author: Ebclarinet1
Date: 2012-05-22 16:19
My teacher Chet Hazlett played a PM in the recordings of the Strauss tone poems with the NBC Symphony. It was a great horn as I played it once during my lesson. So it might be worth getting it into shape if it turns out to be a winner.
By the way I play Eb clarinet and live right here in Salem. If you want to check it out with different barrels and mouthpieces bring it over. just email me privately.
Eefer guy
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Author: rs11gps
Date: 2012-05-23 19:24
Thanks for the invite.
The good news is that Brian (the tech that worked on my 1908 Buffet) has also decided to take on the PM Eb.
We discussed limits on cost, but he's sounding pretty reasonable. He agrees this will be a fine horn when we are done with it and appreciates the challenge.
He has started work on the PM. Hopefully, I'll have some news next week.
Post Edited (2012-05-23 19:28)
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Author: SteveG_CT
Date: 2012-05-23 19:35
rs11gps wrote:
> The good news is that Brian (the tech that worked on my 1908
> Buffet) has also decided to take on the PM Eb.
>
Nice. It's good to see more people appreciating the old P-M clarinets as they were probably the best of the American-made clarinets.
Post Edited (2012-05-23 19:36)
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Author: rs11gps
Date: 2012-05-30 15:56
It's been a week in the shop now, and I just got a small update. With repeated oiling and heating, the screws are responding.
Brian says it is a great horn, and he is looking forward to restoring it to 100% condition.
I'll try and post some pictures.
Post Edited (2012-05-30 15:58)
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