 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: davyd
Date: 2012-05-12 17:35
Out of pure curiosity: what was the first ensemble piece (orchestra, band, or chamber) to call specifically for bass clarinet? Not the basset horn or the basset clarinet, but the Bb/A instrument we use today.
While we're at it: same question for the eefer and the contras.
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Author: Alseg
Date: 2012-05-12 17:49
Don't know if it was the first use, but I was told by an operatic lecturer (at the Santa Fe festival) that the Bass clar. had an early use in Mozart's Don Giovanni to convey gravitas.
Perhaps JHowell or Chester could chime on it that.....I am not certain.
Former creator of CUSTOM CLARINET TUNING BARRELS by DR. ALLAN SEGAL
-Where the Sound Matters Most(tm)-
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Author: Buster
Date: 2012-05-12 19:51
The Eb as we know it today? That is quite difficult to say, perhaps impossible.
Symphonie Fantastique is often cited as the first major orchestral usage of the instrument; perhaps a spurious claim...
Given the numerous keyed (i.e. A, Bb, C, D etc...) instruments employed in the clarinet's infancy to avoid intonation difficulties, it may be tricky to pin down. ---The "Don't write for clarinets beyond 2 sharps" maxim was a general rule of thumb, though not always obeyed.
I have heard of an F clarinet, but don't know in what capacity it was employed; and we are all well aware of the quandary that is the D clarinet. Though called for more frequently in the "olden" days, its usage carried on into the 20th century. Thus, we have the interesting orchestrations of Stravinsky, Mahler, Revueltas etc... that call both for Eb and D in the same composition.
...And the famous Till Euelenspiegel... written solely for D clarinet, much to the dismay of a High-school classmate. (Neglecting to actually read what instrument is called for is a dangerous practice; particularly for the orchestra-mates that have to listen to you attempt to transpose on the spot. He was less than successful.)
As for the contra(s), I have no idea without any research.
-Jason
Post Edited (2012-05-12 19:55)
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Author: GBK
Date: 2012-05-12 23:19
According to Adam Carse (Musical Wind Instruments) the earliest attempt to make a bass clarinet is said to be by Gilles Lot of Paris in 1772.
However, one of the first annotated listings of a bass clarinet was in Meyerbeer's Les Huguenois in 1836.
...GBK
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2012-05-13 00:03
Meyerbeer is the first instance I've heard of a bass clarinet being scored for orchestrally. I wonder what kind of bass clarinet they would've used - one of these maybe?
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2012-05-13 00:03
Oops! Duplicate post!
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
Post Edited (2012-05-13 00:04)
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Author: Buster
Date: 2012-05-13 00:38
Chris,
Where in the world did you find a photo of that...... and where can I buy one?
-Jason
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Author: Tony F
Date: 2012-05-13 01:00
Looks as though it needs more fibre in its diet.
Tony F.
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Author: Bob Bernardo
Date: 2012-05-13 03:54
How about the "C" clarinet? Any info here?
Interesting topic.
Designer of - Vintage 1940 Cicero Mouthpieces and the La Vecchia mouthpieces
Yamaha Artist 2015
Post Edited (2012-05-18 01:53)
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Author: MSK
Date: 2012-05-13 12:55
I'm not a bass clarinet player, but recently played a bass clarinet solo on my ordinary Bb clarinet because our principle bassoon was out. When I was complimented on my solo, I made some joke about my miniature bass clarinet. I had several people going. They were actually examining my Bb to figure out how it differed from my usual clarinet -- never noticing I was in the wrong octave or that there was no extra clarinet on a stand. Wouldn't it be convenient if one could actually miniaturize a bass?
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2012-05-13 14:01
Bob, the C clarinet was used along with the A and Bb (and other pitches) right from the very early days of orchestral use in the Classical era when clarinets began making appearances in the orchestra to becoming regular members. The chalumeau was used in the Baroque era before that, but regular instrumentation as we know wasn't standardised back then.
You'll find it in scores of Mozart and Haydn, later on with Beethoven and well into the Romantic era with Berlioz, then later still as Smetana and other late Romantics scored for it, then onto Mahler and other 20th Century composers. Whether or not the parts were being played on a C clarinet or transposed onto Bb or A was up to the player if they did or didn't have or find it useful to use a C clarinet depending on the circumstances.
The most clarinets I've encountered in one sitting was five different sizes in Mahler 1st where he scored the 3rd and 4th players for Eb, C, Bb, A and bass - although I'm sure there may be others that score for one player to play more than five.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: Buster
Date: 2012-05-13 16:15
Chris P wrote:
> You'll find it in scores of Mozart and Haydn, later on with
> Beethoven and well into the Romantic era with Berlioz, then
> later still as Smetana and other late Romantics scored for it,
> then onto Mahler and other 20th Century composers. Whether or
> not the parts were being played on a C clarinet or transposed
> onto Bb or A was up to the player if they did or didn't have or
> find it useful to use a C clarinet depending on the
> circumstances.
Not such a simple decision for all of us on that count.
-Jason
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Author: tictactux ★2017
Date: 2012-05-13 16:19
> Wouldn't it be convenient if one could actually miniaturize a bass?
Actually I'd love to have a (scaled down) bass clarinet bell on my soprano ...together with an angled barrel.
Just for looks, of course.
--
Ben
Post Edited (2012-05-13 16:19)
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Author: JHowell
Date: 2012-05-14 01:24
I don't think there's any bass in Mozart. Basset horn, yes, of course. I've seen this and that about bass being used in Les Huguenots or whatever, but I've never played any Myerbeer or Mercadante. Wagner, however, put the bass clarinet on the map.
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Author: Buster
Date: 2012-05-14 02:24
"Placing an instrument on the map" and the actual first employment of said instrument are two wholly differing matters.
With a bit of research into the links posted by Chris, GBK and Ken, we can loosely date the Papalini bass clarinet at 1810, or earlier...
Les Hugenots -1836, could be the earliest date we accurately can cite of the usage of bass clarinet... But given the fact that Meyerbeer was an early proponent of Wagner, we could perhaps infer that Wagner was influenced by Meyerbeer to incorporate the bass clarinet into his own opera(s). Though inference is a dangerous practice.
Conversely we can say the Wagner's ample usage of bass clarinet in A never really reached the map, save Respighi's Fountains of Rome for instance.
Or his usage of the 'Wagner-Tuba' never caught hold in the long term - save The Rite of Spring likewise.
Berlioz's famous "introduction" of the Eb clarinet in 1830 (Symphonie Fantastique) was perhaps inconsequential in lieu of Strauss' (in)famous employment of the D clarinet in Til Eulenspiegel -1895.
That is of course until we see the prevailing usage of Eb clarinet in lieu of the D clarinet... except for The Rite of Spring, or the works of Mahler.
Perhaps the progression of instrument "acceptance" is more mutable than we infer.
-Jason
Post Edited (2012-05-14 03:46)
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Author: JHowell
Date: 2012-05-14 12:18
I guess this is just happens when you ask a question on a forum that could have been answered with a little research -- you get folks like me who think, "Yes, but . . . " Sure, if you look at the dates on the screen, Mercadante predates Meyerbeer who predates Berlioz who predates Wagner, but given that all of this happened between the first appearance of the bass clarinet in any form in 1810 and Tannhauser in 1845, I think the question of significance is valid. Wagner made the bass clarinet essential to his music, and wrote the first music using bass that endures today. He gave the bass a voice, not just a color. Other punches landed earlier, but his was the first heavy punch. My opinion, of course.
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Author: Ed Palanker
Date: 2012-05-14 20:57
Mozart never wrote for the bass clarinet, it wasn't invented yet. Meyerbeer and Berlioz were the first known composers to wriite for the instument. Wagner and Franck put it on the map. ESP eddiesclarinet.com
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Author: Ken Shaw ★2017
Date: 2012-05-14 22:08
Ed -
I've played the Franck Symphony in D Minor on BC. As I recall, there's only a single brief solo phrase. Is there a more prominent part in any of his other compositions, or by "put it on the map" do you mean "made it part of the orchestra, as important as the 2nd bassoon"?
Ken Shaw
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Author: cigleris
Date: 2012-05-14 22:25
Just looking in Albert Rice's book "From the Clarinet d'Amour to the Contra Bass" one finds that the first use of the bass clarinet in an orchestral context comes from Saverio Mercadante in his opera 'Emma d'Antiochia'' this was premiered in 1834, two years before Meyerbeer's 'Les Huguenots'. However the bass clarinet has been around in a form from 1750 and where played (badly, by contemporary accounts) by soloists.
In answer to Bob's question regarding the use of the 'C' Clarinet we can look to Vivaldi. He wrote two concertos for two oboes and clarinets (in C) RV. 559 and RV. 560. The only clarinets that where used in the early 18th C where pitched in D or C and had only two keys like their chalameux brothers.
Peter Cigleris
Post Edited (2012-05-14 22:38)
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Author: Buster
Date: 2012-05-15 00:16
How do we define 'significant' in the context of where this thread currently stands?
For instance, Mozart put the basset clarinet on the map....
But it was not a significant matter until some 150 years later. (Give or take a bit.)
-Jason
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Author: JHowell
Date: 2012-05-15 01:06
I would say that the basset horn is a different matter than bass clarinet, and would not try to use it for comparison with bass clarinet. As lovely as it is, it's a specialty intrument, like bass oboe or oboe d'amore. If Mozart weren't Mozart, it wouldn't exist today.
Significant in this case means having influence, substance, or meaning. If someone wants to argue that Mercadante or Meyerbeer had as much influence as Wagner on musical history or produced works (or even bass clarinet parts) of equal substance I guess that's fine. But I play something or another by Wagner just about every season, and have never played either of the M's above. I agree with everyone who says Mercadante was the first because I've read the same words. But Wagner's use of bass was significant. In my opinion, of course.
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Author: cigleris
Date: 2012-05-15 08:23
Just because one person hasn't played the bass clarinet solos of Mercadante or Meyerbeer doesn't mean that those works are of no value. If those composers where of no value in their day then the bass clarinet wouldn't have gained a seat in the orchestra. I would argue that these composers are significant because they had the nerve to try something new. Wagners contribution towards the bass clarinet is evident and of significance but I would also argue that Verdi was more prolific in using the instrument. Wagner's use of the bass comes in the Ring Cycle predominantly as well as a part in Tannhauser. Verdi's use, imo, is higher.
With regard to John's comment regarding the basset horn this cannot hold true. There were many players of this instrument before Mozart really took advantage of it. The majority of these players were composers and wrote music for their instrument such as Backhofen and Beerhalter. Stadler was also a very fine player of the instrument before he knew Mozart and bringing it to his attention.
Peter Cigleris
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Author: JHowell
Date: 2012-05-15 21:11
Good point on Verdi.
I think the comment about Mozart and the basset horn is valid. No doubt Backhofen and Beerhalter were esteemed in their time, and perhaps they are worthy of a revival, but nobody buys a basset horn to play them. Without Mozart, the basset horn would join the Heckelphone and the sarrusophone as a rare antiquity, with only a few existing and only a few accomplished players, used only by companies like the Met to play Capriccio.
And I agree that Mercadante and Myerbeer were significant, historically. Mercadante certainly has his place in opera lineage, but I can't be the ONLY one who has never played one of his operas. The same with Myerbeer. A quick internet browse shows seven performances of Les Huguenots between 1974 and 2009. Worldwide. Perhaps Myerbeer is not to be blamed for the modern lack of funding and courage among opera companies, but the fact remains that if the bass clarinet depended on Myerbeer for its popularity it would be in big trouble. It took composers like Wagner and, yes, Verdi to keep it alive until it could breathe on its own. Would not have other composers done the same eventually? Perhaps, maybe even probably. Today it's hard to imagine the orchestral palette without it. But I think Wagner was the tipping point.
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Author: davyd
Date: 2012-05-18 20:11
I'm wondering if perhaps first use of bass clarinet perhaps wasn't Meyerbeer's or Mercadante's works, but some earlier piece(s), perhaps for wind band rather than orchestra, that has/have not survived. M & M might have gotten the idea from someone(s) no longer remembered.
As for the eefer - duly noted about Symphonie Fantastique. Who was next to call for it? Seems like there ought to be something between Berlioz and Mahler.
Contras - no guesses thus far. I'm supposing that they snuck into the band repertoire by way of the "Eb bass [in] treble clef" and "Bb bass [in] treble clef" parts that we see in some of the older band material.
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Author: Buster
Date: 2012-05-19 00:41
It strikes me a bit humorously that we are referring to these C, D, Eb, F, G, A etc... clarinets as auxiliary instruments.
Given that the history of their usage and development spans a long period of time, when did they actually come to be considered 'auxiliary' clarinets?
In Mozart or Schubert's time, a C clarinet was not considered an auxiliary instrument nor an "anomaly." It was simply a C clarinet.
-Jason
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Author: Terry Stibal
Date: 2012-06-23 07:12
I believe that the carved bass was used in the band of Napoleon's i
Imperial Guard. (Source for this was G. Randall's book on the clarinet. ) The 1810 date would put it right before the disastrous Russian campaign, and the band gave at least one concert in Moscow before the famous retreat. Source for that was the seminal book in English (and French) on that august body.
The Guard's band marched with bassoons. As anyone who has ever tried this knows, it does not make for good music. The bass would have made an excellent replacement for the bassoon, even so far as to replace the thin-sounding per-Heckel horns on a one for two basis.
I don't know about those palmed tone holes, though. The palm keys on saxes give me fits - stopping a hole with my palm would be more than I would care to attempt, and I've been playing bass for about fifty years now.
And I'm sure that I would have wanted to lug it back from Moscow...
leader of Houston's Sounds Of The South Dance Orchestra
info@sotsdo.com
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Author: davyd
Date: 2012-06-25 03:38
I don't consider the C instrument to be an auxiliary; it's a core instrument, just like the A and Bb, if a bit less frequently used. When I posed the question initially, I was wondering about the debuts of anything other than those three.
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