 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: jim lande
Date: 2012-05-09 21:36
I would like to experiment making reverse taper barrels for Silva Bets. Presumably I need a drill slightly smaller than the top bore of the typical Silva Bet and then some taper reamers. Can anyone suggest where to buy reamers and what sizes I will need.
Walter Grabner modified one of his barrels for a silva bet and it was fine -- so I'm assuming that whatever reams are used on a normal barrel would be fine for my purpose.
Is there a particular tool or jig for doing the tenons? The mouthpiece side would be standard, but the clarinet side, of course, will be much smaller.
Any help would be appreciated.
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Author: Buster
Date: 2012-05-09 23:31
Any time I've had a tenon reamed, it has been done on a lathe. Not a cheap acquisition...
A skilled machinist can make you high quality reamers.... but you Will need to provide the dimensions. As for the taper itself- there in lies the rub.
You can go with a standard Morse taper, or experiment: having several reamers made allowing you to vary the actual shape of the reamed bore. (Many of the after-market barrels made today have a several stepped reaming process, making for a more complex taper than a simple reversed cone.)
Again, you would need to provide the dimensions in all of this.
If I knew the exact numbers I'd gladly provide them, but alas I do not. Your mouthpiece exit bore will likely be in the .582-.595-ish range, but you would also need to measure the entry bore of your top joint. (IF you wish a simple reverse cone, simply provide those 2 measurements and the length of bore you desire.)
I doubt any after-market makers would provide their specs, but you can always measure for yourself.
...and then arises the argument over French-style or German style-reamers.
-Jason
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Author: jim lande
Date: 2012-05-13 02:30
Jason
Thanks. I have a friend who has the lathe and can make the basic barrels. It is one thing to buy a lathe and another to use it.
I was hoping that there was a standard set of Moennig tapers. A long time ago I thought i saw some specs, but of course I didn't take notes or save a link.
I suppose my first purchase should be a high quality micrometer.
Jim
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Author: Buster
Date: 2012-05-13 03:16
jim lande wrote:
>It is one thing to buy a lathe and another to use it.
Amen to that!!!!
A micrometer is a useful tool. Also, there are some high quality bore gauges to be found that give very accurate measurements. (Perhaps even better than a mic. Not sure If I can list the makers here or not.)
I've heard varying opinions about the Moennig taper. The current Moennigs sold by Buffet may, or may not, be the most accurate measuring-stick.
Some do claim that Moennig used a simple Morse taper. Yet, my friend has a barrel made by Moennig himself that certainly is not (and was made to play with a 1mm gap between the mouthpiece and barrel socket.) Unfortunately, I don't have access to it or I would gladly e-mail you the measurements.
Mark Jacobi may be a contact as I believe he inherited many of Moennig's tools and reamers.
-Jason
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Author: Bob Bernardo
Date: 2012-05-13 04:21
I have someone make them for my clarinet mouthpieces. You need a very good lathe. Older ones, and often ones from other countries, China, won't hold the tolerance and often the steel is weak and after about 20 applications the bit is dull. When you resharpen the reamer the tolerance changes.
Be very careful where you have them made. The average price for a tapered reamer is around $300 to $400 and you should avoid the reamers that you use by hand. It's best to use a drill press. You can mess up a mouthpiece with a hand reamer in about 2 seconds. I'm surely not trying to scare anyone. It does take some practice when dealing with something 6 times thinner than the human hair.
Designer of - Vintage 1940 Cicero Mouthpieces and the La Vecchia mouthpieces
Yamaha Artist 2015
Post Edited (2012-05-18 01:59)
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Author: Buster
Date: 2012-05-13 05:17
Bob,
Just out of personal curiosity, what grade of carbon-steel do you have your reamers made from? (I'd assume a high %) How many flutes?
If sharpening is needed (which would likely be more frequent in barrel reaming) do you use a lapping compound? Is a burr actually turned on the flutes?
I've never gone as far as actually having reamers made but have always been curious....
-Jason
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Author: SteveG_CT
Date: 2012-05-13 09:18
jim lande wrote:
> Jason
>
> Thanks. I have a friend who has the lathe and can make the
> basic barrels. It is one thing to buy a lathe and another to
> use it.
In most cases you do NOT want to do the final reaming process on a lathe. The reason for this is that on the vast majority of lathes the tailstock ram and the headstock spindle are not concentric. Typically the tailstock ram will be a few thousands of an inch lower than the headstock spindle due to a combination of bed wear, wear on the tailstock casting, and the fact that this dimension isn't very accurate on most lathes to begin with.
In some cases you can work around this limitation by installing the reamer in a floating chuck and having it guided by a pilot bushing. Unfortunately due to the short length of the barrel to be reamed this technique would likely not be practical for this application.
My recommendation would be to clamp the barrel onto the table of a drill press or tapping station and make sure it is concentric to the spindle (you will need a dial indicator to do this). You can then install a dead center in the spindle of the drill press / tapping station and use that to support the reamer and keep it concentric with the bore of the barrel (all hand reamers should be center drilled at the end for this purpose).
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Author: SteveG_CT
Date: 2012-05-13 09:31
Buster wrote:
> Just out of personal curiosity, what grade of carbon-steel do
> you have your reamers made from?
I doubt any self-respecting machine shop would make a reamer out of carbon steel. An alloy tool steel like M2 or M4 would be more appropriate. With any high-precision cutting tool you want to make it from the most wear-resistant material that is economically feasible since it will no longer be in spec after it is resharpened the first time.
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Author: jbutler ★2017
Date: 2012-05-13 13:09
Jim,
Ferrees makes a reamer for barrels. The part # is G107 and listed on page 110 of their catalog.
john b
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Author: Buster
Date: 2012-05-13 16:12
I once saw someone ream a barrel using Vise-Grips as the handle for the reamer.
Made me shudder a bit.
-Jason
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Author: SteveG_CT
Date: 2012-05-13 18:21
Buster wrote:
> I once saw someone ream a barrel using Vise-Grips as the handle
> for the reamer.
>
> Made me shudder a bit.
It was probably Clark Fobes in his barrel video. Made me wince too.
Post Edited (2012-05-13 18:22)
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Author: Buster
Date: 2012-05-13 23:23
Bob,
Regarding using a reamer via drill press on a mouthpiece...
Wouldn't the heat generated cause the rubber the expand slightly, and upon cooling when the rubber shrinks, cause the specs to be slightly too large?
Or is this accounted for in the size of the reamer used?
-Jason
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Author: Alseg
Date: 2012-05-14 00:24
Reaming a bore is an art.
Do NOT ream on a drill press.
Personally, I prefer to make a pilot bore then hand ream using multiple passes with multiple reamers....some have different number of blades, etc,
I Know that a well known expert stated in a video that Moennig used a Morse taper. My bores never matched any Morse taper ratio enough to just use a standard commercial HSS Morse reamer, nor did my original Moennig barrel match one, nor any others that I measured that were made by Hans M.
The Ferrees tool is meant to be useful for fixing barrels that were shortened or repaired. I spoke w. their tech, and it is not made for de novo creation of a barrel.
Small vise grip devices make excellent tool and die handles and are less costly than some reamer handles. If it is good enough for Clark, it is good enough for me, esp. since I use a plethora of reamers, and sometimes a handle gets misplaced or used elsewhere. I once found one hiding in a Cabela's range bag.
Former creator of CUSTOM CLARINET TUNING BARRELS by DR. ALLAN SEGAL
-Where the Sound Matters Most(tm)-
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Author: Bob Bernardo
Date: 2012-05-14 04:23
All I can confirm is the steel is hardened. I've used the same company for 20 years. I've had to make a few new ones through the years.
Secondly you are only taking off a tiny bit of bore rubber, thus the drill bit, the reamer, doesn't get hot at all. It's not high speed so it moves very slowly, as it should. To do this right you need a decent drill press with varying speeds. Don't use a hand held drill. I you do, say goodbye to the MP. Normally I'm only taking off about .010", which is hardly anything, however it really helps tune the throat keys.
Designer of - Vintage 1940 Cicero Mouthpieces and the La Vecchia mouthpieces
Yamaha Artist 2015
Post Edited (2012-05-18 02:05)
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Author: Phurster
Date: 2012-05-14 05:17
Buster said:
"Many of the after-market barrels made today have a several stepped reaming process, making for a more complex taper than a simple reversed cone."
The NZ representative of Backun said something similar about the MoBa barrel. Does anyone know what's happening inside this barrel? Also how can one barrel (which the MoBa claims) be appropriate for both Bb and A clarinets?
Chris.
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Author: Buster
Date: 2012-05-14 05:55
Phurster wrote:
> Buster said:
> "Many of the after-market barrels made today have a several
> stepped reaming process, making for a more complex taper than a
> simple reversed cone."
Quite so, though to list the makers would be a bit rhetorical as all have their own 'proprietary' specs. I cannot write specifically about the "hard and fast" numbers as I have not measured all makes; and to list them may even be spurious as barrels can be reamed to "fit" a particular mouthpiece etc...
> The NZ representative of Backun said something similar about
> the MoBa barrel. Does anyone know what's happening inside this
> barrel? Also how can one barrel (which the MoBa claims) be
> appropriate for both Bb and A clarinets?
I would not even begin to surmise what the dimensions of the MoBa are... I don't own one.
As for a 'universal' Bb/A barrel, we would need much more input for an accurate mathematical answer. Otherwise, we are subject to setting Helmholtz resonators throughout the hall to discern what exactly is emanating from our clarinet(s).
-Jason
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Author: BobD
Date: 2012-05-14 12:04
Speculation: Mr.Moennig may have used a Morse taper during the experimental stage of development but the final taper he used is much less severe.
Bob Draznik
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Author: Alseg
Date: 2012-05-14 12:08
Sometimes you can use one barrel for both A and Bb, but this is not universal. I addressed this-as have others-in prior threads over the years.
Jim,The Silva Bet is a nice instrument. If you want a metal taper barrel for it, consider seeking out a brass specialist (there are those who make custom trumpets) and get one to your specs, and have them silver-plate it.
It will then become a Lande barrel and you can be famous.![[grin]](http://test.woodwind.org/clarinet/BBoard/smileys/smilie5.gif)
Former creator of CUSTOM CLARINET TUNING BARRELS by DR. ALLAN SEGAL
-Where the Sound Matters Most(tm)-
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Author: The Doctor ★2017
Date: 2012-05-15 20:02
(Disclaimer - I sell Chedeville rubber barrels, Dr. Allan Segal is my taper guru)
It has been my experience that making reproducible multi-taper barrels requires a prototype made with the aid of an artisan barrel maker specifically for an instrument brand or type. Each barrel material too (e.g. wood, rubber, metal) may require a different taper set for optimum performance.
Measurements from this prototype barrel can then be made into a custom CNC reaming tool (very expensive) that has enough length of each taper to make different length barrels with exact depth placement of the CNC tool for each length type. Reproducing multi-tapers by hand is near impossible.
L. Omar Henderson
www.chedevillemp.com
Post Edited (2012-05-15 20:06)
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