 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: Amy
Date: 2012-04-28 13:23
Hello everyone,
Recently I've been searching the web to find an E11 for my daughter who plays clarinet and is ready to move up to a wood instrument. She has played the Buffet e11 before and really enjoys it. I noticed in the store they want around $1300 - $1700 for one (depending on if it has sliver or nickle keys). On Ebay, however, there are quite a few available for $750-$850 (nickle). The sellers SEEM to be reputable..My question is, are these E11 rejects of some sort? I know Crampon underwent some changes a few years ago where they changed the factory where the E11 was made. These are the E11's made in Germany, and from what I've researched, those are the ones to get. So why so cheap? Anyone have a clue?
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Author: clarnibass
Date: 2012-04-28 14:07
Maybe they are used or from an old stock they are trying to get rid of.
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Author: JHowell
Date: 2012-04-28 15:59
Buffet has a suggested retail price, which is what your stores may be trying to get, and a fair-trade minimum, less than which no dealer may charge. You may be seeing the difference between these two prices.
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Author: sowilson
Date: 2012-04-28 16:46
There are a number of W. German E11's that are being liquidated because the current E11 is from France. They're fine instruments and 700-800 is a decent price. I recently purchased a used E11 (German) for my daughter (a step up for her) that was used little and then stored by the player for a few years. Paid $350 for it and then had our local repairman clean and tune it (reset a couple of pads, replaced a spring or two, and cleaned it up) for $100. That and a decent mouthpiece and it plays like a champ. I find the trick for Ebay is to follow what's listed closely for a few months before you buy a research the sellers. You'll figure out who's BSing you and what the market price for things are.
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Author: Jack Kissinger
Date: 2012-04-28 18:21
"Maybe they are used..."
"You may be seeing the difference between [the MSRP and the fair trade minimum].
"There are a number of W. German E11's that are being liquidated because the current E11 is from France."
I don't think any of these are the correct explanation. The instruments are clearly new. If you don't want to deal with an eBay seller, you can buy one from Amazon for about $850. The MSRP explanation was correct several years ago when there was a significant difference between the MSRP and the "fair trade minimum" but no longer as Buffet has raised its "fair trade" minimums pretty much to the MSRP levels. And the older [silver plated] E11s have long since been liquidated. BTW, nickel plated West German E11s would predate the fall of the Berlin wall -- 1989. Not likely many of those still around as new old stock.
I think the article here:
http://www.hysonmusic.com/blog/the-buffet-e11-france-vs-buffet-e11-germany-vs-buffet-e11-%E2%80%9Cnickel%E2%80%9D/
is actually the explanation.
What I find interesting is that there used to be a directive in the European Union banning the use of nickel plating on items that would come into prolonged contact with the skin. Germany may actually have had such a ban (perhaps even a stronger one) before the European Union adopted it (in 1994?). i would speculate that's why Schreiber was silver plating the keys on the E11s it made. (Anyone from Europe out there who can confirm or refute this? And indicate whether the ban is still in effect?) If so, Buffet (which apparently imported keys from China for its nickle plated French model) may still be importing the keys from China for this instrument. And who knows, perhaps the wood parts as well. Assembling the instruments in Germany would allow them to stamp the instruments "Made in Germany." Does anyone out there know for how the work is actuallydivided up?
If the article is correct, these new "German" clarinets are not the same as the ones produced by Schreiber.
Best regards,
jnk
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Author: clarnibass
Date: 2012-04-29 04:56
>> I don't think any of these are the correct explanation. The instruments are clearly new. <<
You might be right. I don't know. It was just as possibility and could be wrong (which is why I wrote "maybe"). From the info in the first post it's not clear to me they are new or not an old stock but maybe you know somehow. I have no idea if that article is correct or not. The only Bb E11 on Buffet's website is the French one with silver plated keys and that's the only one they were showing last year in Musikmesse. Maybe the French/Chinese and the new German versions are for dealers only with no info from Buffet on their website. Strange but possible.
>> If the article is correct, these new "German" clarinets are not the same as the ones produced by Schreiber. <<
According to the article it seems that these new German (why the quotes?) E11s are made by Schreiber and are similar to the ones they made previously. The article says: "Buffet... purchased the Schreiber factory in Germany to continue the production of the original E11, which is known as the E11 Germany introduced in 2011."
It's all a bit tricky because the article is wrong about the "gossip" but maybe it's correct about the clarinets (though there is no mention of these clarinets on Buffet's website).
Post Edited (2012-04-30 04:01)
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Author: Jack Kissinger
Date: 2012-04-30 02:56
I was going to direct you to eBay and Amazon but I ran across this:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OH9cuMncWxc
I think it backs up my point that the clarinets are new (not new old stock).
Perhaps these clarinets are similar to the E11 Schreiber was making before Buffet moved production to France but they aren't the same -- for starters these are nickel plated and the earlier Schreiber instruments were silver plated. If the plating is different, what about the bore? The question I would like to see answered is: How much of these new German E11s are actually made in Germany -- everything? the wood parts? the keywork? If it turns out that the parts are imported and simply assembled in Germany, then is it really a "German" clarinet?
The French made E11 has received some criticism on this Board in the past if I recall. The Schreiber-made clarinets that preceded the French Buffet (silver plated keys) are probably the German models Amy has heard praised. Until it's clear that the new German E11s are, in fact, the same clarinet for all intents and purposes (aside from the plating), buying one based on evaluations of the previous model is IMO risky.
The model designation for the French E11 is BC2501F-2-0. I have seen BC2501N-2-0 given as the designation for the new nickel plated German model.
Out of curiosity what "gossip" are you referring to?
Best regards,
jnk
Post Edited (2012-04-30 02:59)
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Author: JHowell
Date: 2012-04-30 03:43
The ebay/Amazon price of less than a grand is quite a bit less than WW/BW's $1500 price for an E11, which we can expect to be Buffet's minimum, so my speculation about the inexpensive E11s certainly was untrue. However, if you look at WW/BW's website, you will see a Buffet 1093 bass with a MSRP of $15,645 and a sale price of $9,347, so the difference does still exist. The spread for R13s is about 40% too, but for E11s it is down to 25%. The change in pricing structure may have raised the price the big guys charge a little but it's lowered the price the smaller guys can charge substantially.
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Author: clarnibass
Date: 2012-04-30 04:08
>> Out of curiosity what "gossip" are you referring to? <<
I meant the info that is corrected in the second post just below the article.
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