 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: Amanda Rose
Date: 2001-02-25 18:31
I was wondering if someone could tell me what strength sandpaper to use if I want to flatten out the underside of my reeds (no top work). I already have a flat piece of granite to use as the table. I just am not sure what sandpaper. I do know how to do it. I forgot the strength.
Thanks. :o)
Amanda Rose
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Author: Bill
Date: 2001-02-25 18:42
600 wet-dry sandpaper. I think I read somewhere that it's recommended that you "soften" the sandpaper a bit by using it on some old reeds first, but I've used it "straight".
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Author: mw
Date: 2001-02-25 19:57
It depends on how you plan to polisht, & whether you plan to follow someone's system. Experimentation in grit strength will probably be the best answer for what *YOU* will prefer.
I have heard of (wet/dry type) Sandapaper being used in strengths just above 300grit to over 1000. I have some 2000grit & 2500grit wet/dry paper that I got from a piano store.
I use 400 & 600. I think someone sai that plain white copy paper has is actually fairly abrasive on its own!
Good luck.
mw
PS - Lots of peoiple repeat an old expression, "NEVER WORK YOUR BEST REED!". However, this would be N/A wher you work all your reeds ight away. them first before
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Author: Tim2
Date: 2001-02-25 20:42
Plain white paper can be abrasive on it's own. Courser paper has higher abrasion level.
Alays remember that you can take wood off the reed but never put it back on. (I don't have a reed trimmer)
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Author: Anji
Date: 2001-02-25 21:07
Hiya AR,
The stuff at Home Depot or your local hardware store will work just fine.
I use #320 (it will appear grey in color) for most applications. #600 (also grey) will be good for the very last polishing step.
If you can't find a suitable piece of plate glass (sand the edges for handling), a piece of floor tile (also Home Depot stuff) is fairly flat. Plate glass is still best.
I use a clear, plastic disposable cup for parties to soak my reeds. The curve is gradual enough that the reeds sort of stick to the sides while soaking.
Like they said, you may want to practice with loser reeds first.
I took off WAY too much at first...if you see dust on the paper, that's probably enough during the first steps.
I use Larry Guy's book as a primer, I think it was worth the buck$.
anji
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Author: joevacc
Date: 2001-02-25 21:12
I think mw just about said it all, but I would like to add that in fixing reeds the most important thing seems to be matching reed strength to mouthpiece and embouchure! I think (and I am not saying that you do this) that people use too hard a reed because there is some unspoken code that harder is better. Or they buy hard reeds to work them down. It seems to me the less you do to a reed, the better off you are. As for answering your question directly, I use copy paper and 1500-grit sandpaper on store bought reeds if they need it.
mw wrote:
PS - Lots of people repeat an old expression, "NEVER WORK YOUR BEST REED!"
I have made many bad reeds decent reeds but have rarely made a bad reed a great reed.
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Author: Willie
Date: 2001-02-26 04:14
If you can't find a nearby hardware store, most better auto parts stores stock wet & dry sandpaper in the auto body repair section. You can find it as high as 1500-1600 grit for this use. You can stick it to an old make-up mirror with some spray adheisive (also from auto parts store) and this makes a good flat working surface.
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Author: Hiroshi
Date: 2001-02-27 04:11
I use# 1200 emmery paper. No hard sanding is possible.
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Author: Mark Charette
Date: 2001-02-27 04:22
I wouldn't use emory paper (which is a kind of sandpaper) since the adhesive on emory paper tends to be weak, leaving grit behind. #600 or so wet-or-dry carborundum does the job for most anyone.
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Author: Miles
Date: 2001-02-27 12:06
I usually will use Vandoren's Reed Resurfacer for sanding the bottom or back side of my reeds. Just don't sand too much. It is hard to add it back! (HA!HA!)
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Author: ron b
Date: 2001-02-27 22:04
Reading the above posts gives me the uncanny notion that I'm so far 'outdated' or removed from mainstream reality that I'm out of touch.
Please allow me to (try to) explain:
I rarely do anything to a reed. Plain ol' Rico #3 1/2 right outa the box. Been using 'em for as long as - well, you know. (Did I just hear someone chuckle? - oh, well - please hear me out anyway - then write me off.... ). If I find a 'need' to make a reed a little 'softer' I do as I and other clarinet tooters I've known and loved over the years have done - scrape the thing. I mean scrape it... with a single edge razor blade. You can buy industrial razor blades at paint departments by the box (100) for about ten dollars. They're great for scraping paint, hobby/craft projects and - scraping reeds. Don't plane, whittle or gouge - just scrape lightly. I've found that you have a lot of control with a blade. You can use a pocket knife or an X-acto if you prefer or, in a pinch, a piece of glass. You can more easily see what you're doing with a thin blade, in my opinion, than you can with a flat piece of opaque paper. You can 'monitor' how much wood you're removing because you can see it as you proceed. A flat surface to lay the reed on is fine if one's handy; if not, no big deal.
I didn't know anyone who seriously considered using sandpaper until I began visiting this BB.
Someone, many years ago, introduced me to the advantages of using reed rush rather than a metal blade. If you're not too dexterous you won't risk serious injury with reed rush. You can carry a piece of rush in your case or your pocket or purse and not have to wrap it; it's very convenient. I've been using it for years.
If your reed's too soft and you don't have a reed trimmer handy you can carefully trim the end of your reed, if you want, by using - you guessed it - a razor blade. Another method is to place the reed, flat side down, on a quarter or half dollar or any similar size coin. With the end extended just beyond the edge of the coin, hold a lighted match or other small flame below the coin. That will burn a little off the end of your reed and it's reasonably symetrical.
Anyway, that's how some of us old coots did it back in the 'olden days'. It may be no better than any other way of 'getting the job done' - just *another* way to get there... if don't have a nice piece of sandpaper handy (right) when you need it.
ron b :o}
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Author: Bill
Date: 2001-02-27 22:44
Ron - Some very interesting tips.
The point of the very fine "sandpaper" is to make the reed table flat, in case it is warped, or if not "typing" paper to make "better" contact with the mpc table. It seems that this would be difficult to accomplish with a razor blade, correct??
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Author: Bill
Date: 2001-02-27 22:57
On second thought, maybe a blade can be used to flatten the reed table. Larry Guy recommends it for removing "pop corn" from the reed table, and I guess this can also flatten the reed, although I think I'd use paper for this purpose.
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Author: ron b
Date: 2001-02-28 17:00
I appreciate your comments, Bill.
I need to better clarify what I tried to explain. Maybe in the process this ol' dog will learn something. We may be talking about two different approaches to reed doctoring.
I've used a blade only to scrape the *top* (rounded side) of the reed - not the bottom, flat side. Scrape from the thick part toward tip, mostly toward the outside (rail sides?), leaving the center (heart) pretty much alone. You want that heart thickness to remain like that. I'm not sure why but tampering with the heart of any reed is a sure-fire way to kill it. Hold the reed up to a light source and the center (heart) should be dark, becoming lighter toward the edges and tip.
I've never found a need to flatten the back (flat) side of a reed. If it's wet it will flatten out by itself and the ligature will hold it tight enough against the mouthpiece table so it won't leak. In fact, I've never seen or heard of a reed leak air at the table unless the table is damaged or the ligature is about to fall off.
It may be that some reeds are so poorly manufactured today that this is a problem. I don't know.
If the backside (flat side) of the reed is sanded it seems to me that this would make it thinner, 'softer'. Doing it this way would avoid scraping the top at all. Is this the point of using sandpaper and a flat surface? If so, I can understand why the flat side would so easily get out of whack and all the concern about doing it correctly that way.
Any way you look at it, what matters is how much time you want to devote to this and whether the result is worth the effort.
Dee is one of many who recommend rotating your reeds. I've found this to be very sound advice that greatly reduces the need to do anything to your reeds other than to enjoy making music with them. I've found that after a reed begins to fade it goes bad rather quickly. When a cane reed gets 'tired' there's very little you can do to revive it.
ron b
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Author: Bill
Date: 2001-02-28 17:27
I was at Ben Armato's house several weeks ago, and he showed me how to test reeds for warpage. His book also addresses this problem. The reeds are tested in the wet, ready to play state. (Not referring to the rippling at the tip of a dry reed which usually flattens when wet.)
Place the reed on a flat surface. Then place your right and left index fingers on the reed's shoulder rail and alternately apply light pressure. If the reed rocks, it is warped, and should be sanded flat with 600 wet-dry sandpaper or discarded. If the reed is warped, it obviosly can't rest properly on the mpc table, and will affect playing.
Several days later, I noticed that moisture was being sprayed on the side of my mouth while playing with a particular reed. I repositioned the reed a couple of times, but still got the spray. I checked the reed for warpage, and sure enough it was warped. I sanded it, and the problem was corrected.
I don't know why you never had this problem, unless it's like you say, "they don't make them like they used to", or maybe it's in the way reeds are broken-in or cared for.
Ron: I really appreciate your comments on reed care, because I find this topic very interesting, and the knowledge exchanged is something that can be applied easily.
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Author: ron b
Date: 2001-02-28 19:44
Thanks, Bill -
I have never 'tested' a reed the way you describe do it. I will later this afternoon, just to try it. Are the reeds new, out of the box, when you do this? I mean, obviously you wet them, but do you do this before you've played them or after you notice something's not right? I have a couple boxes of reeds, around thirty or so new reeds. Would I expect to find, say, five not quite true ones in there?
I don't think they *don't* make 'em like they used to. I think the machining process probably hasn't changed much in the past thirty years. I could be, and probably am, wrong about this - I know nothing about the reed manufacturing process. I do know that mechanical processing methods are upgraded all the time so, why not reed making ones? :]
A 'cyberfriend' who visits this board is interested, as I am, in making reeds from scratch - just for the (whatever) of it - from 'found' cane. New stuff is beginning to grow (out here in CA) now so I plan to send him some more fresh cut cane in a few weeks. I'm sure we'll be keeping in mind what's been discussed here to watch for any signs of warpage.
Do you use tempered glass for a flat surface? I'm sure just any ol' glass won't do - you want it as truly flat as you can get. A bench anvil, if you have one, might be a good surface for this.
I don't think I do anything different when I need to start using a new reed. I wet it in the usual manner, position it on the mpc and snug up the ligature. When I'm done playing for the day, I take the reed off, lightly squeeze off any excess moisture and put it back on the mpc - after I've blown or dabbed the moisture out of it.
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Author: ron b
Date: 2001-02-28 20:22
Thanks, Bill -
I appreciate this discussion too - I've learned more in a short time visiting this board than in many years playing and associating with other players - who really knew their stuff. At least, at the time, they told me they really knew their stuff  They probably did but didn't feel like sharing great quantities of it. There's such a vast pool of knowledge here it's beyond anything imagineable a decade or so (or more) ago.
Maybe I've had the problem you mention but not to the degree you have. Or, and this is more likely, I do like many other players, I just clamp the ligature a little tighter - without consciously realizing I'm compensating for something. I'm sure from now on I'll be giving closer attention to this :
I've never tested a reed the way you describe doing it. I will later this afternoon, just to try it. Are the reeds you test this way new, out of the box, when you do this? I mean, obviously you wet them... but do you do this before you've played them or after you notice something's not right? I have a couple boxes of reeds, around thirty or so new ones, I guess. Would I expect to find, say, five not quite true ones in the lot?
I don't think they *don't* make 'em like they used to. I think the machining process probably hasn't changed much in the past thirty years. I could be, and probably am, wrong about this - I know nothing about the commercial reed manufacturing process. I do know that mechanical processing methods are upgraded all the time though so, why not reed making ones? :]
A 'cyberfriend' who visits this board is interested, as I am, in making reeds from scratch - just for the (whatever) of it - from 'found' cane. New stuff is beginning to grow out here in CA now so I plan to send him some more fresh cut cane in a few weeks. I'm sure we'll be keeping in mind what's been discussed here; to watch for any signs of warpage.
Do you use tempered glass for a flat surface? I'm sure just any ol' glass won't do - you want it as truly flat as you can get. A bench anvil, if you have one, might be a good surface for this.
I don't think I do anything different than anyone else when I need to start using a new reed. I wet it in the usual manner, position it on the mpc and snug up the ligature - a Bonade, the kind with little 'rails' - would this be a factor keeping the reed flat on the mouthpiece table? When I'm done playing for the day, I take the reed off, lightly squeeze off any excess moisture and put it back on the mouthpiece (after I've blown or dabbed the moisture out of it). I had one of those aluminum reed holders long, long ago, but didn't notice any difference in playability by keeping reeds in it or leaving them on the mouthpiece.
ron b
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Author: Bill
Date: 2001-02-28 21:32
I've only found two warped reeds, one of which was the one that Ben found. I don't have the history of the reeds, but I know I was over-wetting (soaking) some of my reeds.
I am now keeping my playing reeds in Vito reed guards. I use a Rovner ligature, and I don't store a reed with the mpc. I use a piece of tempered glass to check the reeds. I think I'll start checking reeds when they are new, and periodically during use to gain some experience. I just checked a box of new (dry) Grand Concert reeds, and none was warped.
I don't know for a fact, but even though machining processes haven't changed, maybe quality control or cane quality is different now.
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Author: Bill
Date: 2001-02-28 21:42
As I was putting a reed on my mpc, I gave it the warp test, before I put the ligature in place. It may be worth testing suspected reeds on both a flat surface (glass), and on the mpc table itself. I did it with the clarinent fully assembled, except for the ligature, with the clarinet in my lap.
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Author: Willie
Date: 2001-03-01 03:43
I don't sand the backside of my reeds to remove warping, but to remove any roughness on the suface. I've found that a nice smooth (and not warped) reed will play pretty good out of the box. The rougher the surface, the stuffier it will play. I just drag it over some 1500 grit (lightly) to smooth the surface and the difference is very noticable. Better seal I guess.
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Author: Hiroshi
Date: 2001-03-01 03:59
Alexander's reed bottom surface is diamond cut. No need of sanding.
It makes the surface bad.
Mark: Thank you correcting my misspelling(emory not emmery).
I learned it in Keith Stein's book(or Frederick Thurston's one).
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Author: joevacc
Date: 2001-03-01 05:27
Like Willie, I too like to try to seal the reed. I feel that they last longer that way. When I start a new box of reeds I empty the whole box into a glass of water and soak em for a minute or two and before I start playing them I give the top a light rub with my finger. After a quick test blow I like to place them in order of preference and put them in reed holders. In the the next day or so I play each one, give a rub with the finger, and a light rub on plain old paper. If the reed is is a little shaggy on the flat side I use 1500 grit to polish the back a little. Some books advocate polishing to a high gloss- like glass. I'll take a razor knife to the top if the reed is unbalanced but only remove a grain or two at a time. RonB, I think your experience has taught you the exact reed and set up that suits you. As was stated above, IMHO, if a person is removing more than a few grains of dust they are playing too hard a reed. As far as making reeds from scratch a lot can be learned on what it takes to shape a reed. I think everyone should try it! Without a machine it is hard to be consistent but if you get a couple of good ones you see patterns with "good" reeds that are similar. The Pino book states that looking at a reed in front of a light is useless... PoppyCock! I've only started playing again a short time ago and I am very sure that Mr. Pino knows far more than me about the subject, but I think that is the best way to see the heart of the reed. As Great Grand Pa Luminado used to say, "Soma time itsa much betta by eye".
Ciao for now,
jv
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Author: ron b
Date: 2001-03-01 17:05
Hi, Joe V!
As I mentioned above, new cane is beginning to sprout around here. I have some places staked out already. I think in a few weeks there'll be some stalks big enough to cut. How was the diameter of that stuff I sent last time? I still have some and it looks a little small to me. But, I haven't whittled any yet.
I think you're right, that over time I gradually settled on a setup that worked for me. I stuck with it, got used to it and found no reason to change. If it ain't broke.... :|
I also agree that, in my little corner of the world anyway, you need to backlight a reed to check the heart area. You'll see in an instant if it's 'off center' or different in some way from other reeds that work well for you. Then you can make an 'intelligent' adjustment if you must.
I don't mean in any way to dispute Mr. Pino. What he says undoubtedly works for him. People can disagree and still be friends :] Personally, I like to hold 'em up to the light, any light that will show the pattern. I like the heart to be pretty much centered, some people I've known like it a little to one side or the other - and make that adjustment by lightly scraping from heel to tip. Whatever works.
ron b
(P.S. I've changed my e-mail address)
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Author: ron b
Date: 2001-03-01 17:17
Amanda -
I hope this info is useful to you. We all seem to have taken over your subject and run off on a lotta rabbit trails.
Reed care and tinkering is a facinating subject and I'd like to thank you for bringing it up.
I learned a lot and I hope you have too.
I guess the answer to your question is; use very fine grit wet-or-dry on a flat-as-you-can-get surface.
:))
ron b
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Author: W. Brown
Date: 2001-03-04 18:43
Silicon carbide abrasive paper works great because silicon carbide is almost as hard as diamond. It's not always easy to find but can be found at jewelery maker's supply stores(such as Bourget) and some tool stores. It costs little and works good for instrument repair and mouthpiece refacing tasks as well.
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Author: Mark Charette
Date: 2001-03-04 21:43
Silicon carbide paper is actually very easy to find - go to any big department store and look in the auto section. It's listed as wet-or-dry and is very inexpensive.
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