 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: fernie51296
Date: 2012-04-22 18:38
I've just recently moved to a new highschool and the clarinetist here have a problem of tongueing extremesly harshly. The band director here heard how I play and asked me to help him with teaching the students how to tongue more delicately because he has been having trouble doing so. Only thing is that I don't really know how to go about "teaching" something like that. All I can think of to say it do it lightly but they can't seem to catch on to this. Any tips on this would be reaallly helpful.
Fernando
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Author: Clarimeister
Date: 2012-04-22 18:41
I'm interested to see what others have in mind as well. I've always tried to not articulate too hard. One method I can definitely describe as helping is the tongue should be released from the reed, not hit the reed or attack the reed. All the tongue does is stop the reed from vibrating momentarily. That's tonguing, not hitting the reed. However, I still have this problem.
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Author: fernie51296
Date: 2012-04-22 18:49
Intresting. Ill definitely try explaining it that way. When I first started learning I was taught zero tongueing for my first 2 years of playing. Then when I went into middle school is when they first had us tongue lightly. Some players had problems of always too legato and not being able to play short enough but here its the other way around.
Fernando
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Author: ClariKid5
Date: 2012-04-22 18:53
Well, What I was taught in 6th grade, was to imagine you have a bird in your hand. if you hit it too harshly the bird dies. the same applies to the reed. Use a dha dha dha dha style tongue instead of Da Ta Ti or Too
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Author: Danny Boy
Date: 2012-04-22 20:43
Tonguing is one of the hardest areas of clarinet technique to teach in my opinion - mainly because as teachers we can't see inside a student's mouth to see what is going on.
It's important to make sure the student understand the process involved on tonguing. If a correct articulation is being used - then it's actually impossible to 'tongue too hard' as it must always be remembered that it is the action of removing the tongue from the reed which creates the articulation.
Generally, I find that heavy articulation is as a result of having too much tongue in contact with too much of the reed for too much time (or one or the other). This type of articulation has much in common with the first stages of the slap tongue technique.
So - my advice here would be to advocate tip of the tongue at the tip of the reed, and emphasising how small the movement should be from the tongue's rest position to making contact with the reed.
Also always remember that the secret to good tonguing is airflow.
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Author: Ed
Date: 2012-04-22 23:02
I work with students on a slow legato with the articulation as light as possible. I try to have them use as little contact as needed. Gradually we work to speed it up, always remembering that it is about the motion going away from the reed rather than toward the reed. As others have mentioned, good air support is crucial.
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Author: bethmhil
Date: 2012-04-23 00:15
I teach with the same idea Ed talked about-- Legato tonguing is effective in the sense of hearing the sound/vibration continue while articulating, rather than cutting it off with the tongue. I try to teach the "dah" syllable, rather than "tah"-- "tah" forces the tongue to not only not touch with the tip, but also forces the tongue to smack the reed and thus cuts off the vibration, making the articulation heavy.
My favorite analogy for light articulation is a box fan. When you stick a pencil into the fan and it touches the blades, the pencil instantly bounces away from the spinning blades, and the blades (hopefully!) don't stop. The vibrating reed is the same thing-- the tongue should bounce off the tip of the reed, not smack it and stop it from vibrating.
BMH
Illinois State University, BME and BM Performance
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Author: kdk
Date: 2012-04-23 00:22
Danny Boy wrote:
> Tonguing is one of the hardest areas of clarinet technique to
> teach in my opinion - mainly because as teachers we can't see
> inside a student's mouth to see what is going on.
>
It isn't only teachers who can't see what's going on in the student's mouth. The student can't see it either, and our tactile sense can give deceptive feedback when we can't verify visually what we think we feel. And the process works the other way as well. The student can't see what the teacher is doing inside his mouth during a demonstration of good articulation, not in the way the teacher's finger position and motion or the external movements involved in effective breathing can be watched. Hence the reliance of many good teachers on metaphor or other imagery to try to provide the student with a sensory point of reference.
> It's important to make sure the student understand the process
> involved on tonguing. If a correct articulation is being used -
> then it's actually impossible to 'tongue too hard' as it must
> always be remembered that it is the action of removing the
> tongue from the reed which creates the articulation.
It's easy to lose sight in discussing "articulation" that *before* the tongue does anything at all, there must be *something to articulate.* as you bring up later in this post. The student's use or misuse of the air stream and all of its subtle variations is often more important than his use of the tongue.
>
> Also always remember that the secret to good tonguing is
> airflow.
I just don't think I'd relegate this to an "also" at the end of the discussion. The use of air and its importance in producing a stable and controllable tone is basic. The tongue can be used in all kinds of ways to start notes in different ways (the "attack" part of the tone envelope) to fit the musical context, but no note will result if no air pressure is available at the reed when the tongue does whatever it does. It's often this lack of available air pressure when the tongue moves that causes delays, clunks and other unwanted noises and effects in articulated playing.
Karl
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Author: Noqu
Date: 2012-04-23 09:17
How about using "la la la" instead of "da" (much less "ta") ?
A consonant that is not a "plosive" (phonetic term for a consonant where the vocal tract is blocked so that all airflow ceases, like "d", "p", "t", "k") comes much closer to the idea we want to convey, no?
Noqu
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Author: Lelia Loban ★2017
Date: 2012-04-23 11:25
Noqu wrote,
>>How about using "la la la" instead of "da" (much less "ta") ?
A consonant that i>>s not a "plosive" (phonetic term for a consonant where the vocal tract is blocked so that all airflow ceases, like "d", "p", "t", "k") comes much closer to the idea we want to convey, no?
>>
What an excellent suggestion. When I was learning to tongue as a child beginner, I picked up the bad habit of anchor-tonguing. When I realized in high school that what I intended as, "ta ta ta" was coming out, "Nyeh nyeh nyeh," the clever clarinet player who sat next to me in orchestra suggested, "Pretend your tongue is pointed." Wow! That worked! Noqu's recommendation to think of "la la la" amounts to the same advice.
Lelia
http://www.scoreexchange.com/profiles/Lelia_Loban
To hear the audio, click on the "Scorch Plug-In" box above the score.
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Author: bethmhil
Date: 2012-04-23 22:55
Though I do agree that "la" is a good syllable to demonstrate the continuation of the vibration/airstream, I don't think it can be used as a basic articulation syllable. It forces the jaw to move significantly... and, though I could be wrong on this one, it feels (yes, I'm saying lalalalalala!) like the tongue is really not articulating with the tip, even when changing the syllable to more of a "luh"...? I like the concept of "dah" because it is very relative to the real articulation on the reed/mouthpiece. Think about this in terms of flute... If I were teaching flute, I would NOT use "dah" to teach articulation, because that does not relate to the real articulation (or embouchure) on flute. A more appropriate syllable would be "too" or "doo".
BMH
Illinois State University, BME and BM Performance
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Author: BenInBb
Date: 2012-04-24 01:34
An exercise that worked well for me was the practice touching the tongue to the reed so lightly that the reed could still vibrate. The exercise was call "tickle tongue". It worked in pattern of normal whole note, whole note with the tongue on the reed (but still playing) then 2 half notes the same way, then quarters, then sixteenth notes tongued as gently as possible in normal fashion. This exercise cash work through the whole range of the instrument, but its much more difficult in the altissimo, and is less productive up there.
Ben Parker
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Author: DavidBlumberg
Date: 2012-04-24 12:31
Don't have time to reply really, but I'll tell you what these days not to do (my teacher did this to me in 9th grade).
He said to me "DON'T HIT THE REED SOOOOOO HAAAARD"
what was quite effective was that while he said that quite slowly, he was hitting me in my arm.
;)
http://www.SkypeClarinetLessons.com
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Author: bethmhil
Date: 2012-04-25 00:48
Those brilliant clarinet pedagogues... so violent...
BMH
Illinois State University, BME and BM Performance
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Author: Buster
Date: 2012-04-25 23:20
bethmhil wrote:
> Those brilliant clarinet pedagogues... so violent...
>
Sometimes we really need to evaluate how brilliant those (often long dead) pedagogues were; regardless of how capable they are/were as musicians. Taking a written statement to be true simply because someone of stature, or admiration, wrote it down is dangerous.
much like David, I don't have time to compose an actual reply. A true reply containing anything substantive that could "physically" be done; let alone written in a manner that could easily be parsed out, so I must refrain.
But, I can say that I often use many "consonants" in articulation, even those deemed "incorrect" prior to my post. I think it is important to remember that a syllable of pronunciation, even those that may cause jaw movement in speech, are effective on the clarinet. Our jaw is "held" in a quasi-static position while we are blowing... so that 'La' may just be applicable in certain settings. (To head any cries of heresy off at the pass, I am not advocating a locked position of any portion of the embouchure.)
Conversely, look in a mirror and pronounce "Nah", "Nee", "Tah", "Tee", "Dah", "Dee" and observe just how stable the jaw remains; you may just be surprised.
As for not tonguing so harshly; take the tongue completely out of the equation. Perhaps find a way to have a student learn to begin and end notes using only diaphragmatic support; even if they are not quite capable of intellectually digesting exactly what is occurring.
(At times we must find a way to teach a young student to do something without their knowledge of what exactly is going on; we can explain it a bit later when they are more intellectually capable of understanding what is truly occurring. The burden of accomplishing this on both counts lies on our shoulders- that is why it is called a 'job'.)
Once the ability to start and stop notes with the diaphragm is grasped, the tongue can be re-introduced into the equation.
This process of doing so can vary. I will try and write more later on what I personally would/could do, or how I could accomplish this. I need to think about it so I can clearly write down what I wish to convey.
-Jason
Post Edited (2012-04-25 23:23)
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Author: ohsuzan
Date: 2012-04-25 23:47
Well, I suppose there ARE those amazing physical specimens who can keep the air floating AND tongue aggressively, but in my experience, the thwap-thwap-thwap sort of tonguing is directly correlated with faulty understanding/application of the role of air support.
If the air support is correct, the tonguing will follow. N'est-ce pas?
Susan
Post Edited (2012-04-25 23:48)
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Author: Buster
Date: 2012-04-26 00:51
ohszuan,
I apologize, but we need to eliminate superlatives/descriptors such as "floating" and "tonguing aggressively"; what do they *really* mean? Try describing them in concrete terms for a reader and the need to eliminate them becomes self-evident.
How can we quantify the amount of floating for instance?
What exactly is aggressive tonguing? In specifics words as to motion, force, surface area of tongue touching the reed?
Faulty tonguing is not always directly correlated to air support. Problems with articulation can be caused by the presence, of lack there of, of air at the moment of articulation. Yes. But diagrammatic support is a facet of proper exhalation, not simply blowing.
Actually, the application of diaphragmatic support can have the opposite result of expelling air from the lungs; it can cause the air to not be expelled. Some reading on the physiological action of the diaphragm will illustrate why.
So n'est-ce pas (and I had to look up the French)? Absolutely not.
I apologize again; but air support, in the way you are incorrectly using the terminology, does not as a direct consequence result in "correct" tonguing.
-Jason
Post Edited (2012-04-26 00:52)
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Author: Lucas
Date: 2012-04-26 00:52
As far as syllables go, one of my teachers likes to use the word "kity" for double tonguing, which she uses to correct regular tonguing some times. The "-ty" half of the word is the syllable for single tonguing.
For a really great exercise to teach tonguing, here's what's worked best for me and several others I know:
Play a low C, and then lightly touch the tongue to the reed nearly where the bottom lip meets the reed (this is obviously not where you actually tongue). This should lower the pitch nearly a half step if you do it right and will tickle the tongue a bit at first. Slowly take the tongue away, and then repeat, increasing the speed a bit each time. At some point the tongue will kind of just go on auto-pilot if you're using enough air, and then it's just a matter of learning to controll it more.
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Author: Buster
Date: 2012-04-26 01:31
An essential fact that has not been stated needs to be considered.
***It is nearly impossible to tell someone *what* to do. More so in this remote setting.***
Couple that with the difficulty in vetting the source of the knowledge offered and the problem multiplies.
Karl hit on several key points; most importantly that we often must rely on imagery and metaphor to allow the reader find their own way.
In person, we would be able to judge the quality of the end product thus aiding the process. Here we must trust the readers ability to judge that quality for themselves.
Further we should be able to trust that a poster on the BBoard has actually attempted previous suggestions to judge validity. (And that they are not just chiming in to see their own words in print.)
We should be able to trust in that.....
I apologize as I do not wish to play policeman, but articulation is an area that I have seen too many struggle with. At times due to short, glibly offered, harmful advice from a well-meaning "helper."
Brevity is admirable if possible, but does not elevate the validity of any post. Often those short, glib, posts cause more problems than they solve.
------------------------------
There is a quite poetic saying in Spanish
Amor de lejos, amor de pend****.
Substitute teaching for love, and I think the reason that the majority of the replies in this thread are totally unhelpful (or plain wrong) becomes evident.
And yes, I am aware that I have not actually posted an "answer" in this thread.----- With good reason.
I am working on it, but this takes time. I will not post something that is unclear, incorrect or potentially harmful. Can we all please hold ourselves to this standard?
-Jason
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Author: salzo
Date: 2012-04-27 19:01
Might want to try teaching that the tongue STARTS on the reed, and is removed to produce a tone. It is not the placing of the tongue that produces a tone, but the removal.
Have a student have everything set (air,embochure) while tongue is on the reed, and remove tongue.
Another thing that is helpful for me (but not as sucessful with my students), is to place focus on the rearward action of the tongueing process, rather than the forward.
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Author: Buster
Date: 2012-04-27 21:18
To all,
I will try to organize my following post(s) as succinctly and clearly as possible.
(A prior knowledge of diaphragmatic support is essential; but the reader should search that subject prior to preceding.)
Separated staccato notes:
This can be handled in several ways for education.
---1. Inhale and retain the air in the lungs through usage of the diaphragm, with a constant level of abdominal contraction.
Release the air by relaxing the diaphragm slightly, sounding the note. Then quickly increase the contraction of the diaphragm to stop the exhalation of air. Repeat. (Abdominal contraction remains at a constant level through out.)
The result will be a release of air in a 'ooo' , 'ooo' manner; not an impulsed 'hoo' 'hoo'. The note will enter and terminate without accent as well.
Some exploration could be needed to ensure no additional abdominal contraction is present upon the release of air, nor that an accent is being placed at the beginning of the note sounded.
---2. Inhale and retain the air in the same manner as above, with the same abdominal contraction as well.
Release the air with diaphragmatic relaxation, and terminate the note by touching the tongue to the reed. At this point, re-contract the diaphragm to eliminate the air-pressure built up behind the reed. Remove the tongue from the reed. Repeat. (Abdominal contraction remains constant throughout.)
The result will be releases of air in an 'oot' , 'oot' etc.. manner. (Any vowel and consonant can be substituted.) The resultant sounding notes on the clarinet are not 'toot' , 'toot' but rather 'oot' , 'oot'. (Or 'ut' , 'ut' if you prefer.)
Some experimentation of how the tongue returns to the reed can be explored for variation, or reliability.
---3. Inhale, and retain air once again. Same abdominal contraction.
Place the tongue on the reed. Release the air with the diaphragm a split second before you wish to sound the note, then remove the tongue. Return tongue to the reed and re-contract the diaphragm. Repeat.
This may sound somewhat similar to Number 2., but may add a bit of security for some.
Also, the 'quality' of the note beginning can be altered a bit if desired.
---4. Same inhalation and retention action as written above.
Release the air (diaphragmatic) without the tongue on the reed. Re-contract the diaphragm to cease the air, but as the air is tapering away touch the tongue to the reed- altering the 'quality' of the note ending. Remove the tongue. Repeat. ...Much exploration of how the end of the note can be altered is advisable.
This articulation is quite useful for the 'famous' entrance in Beethoven's Seventh Symphony, if you are familiar with the work. ...those exposed, three repeated clarion A's that so many fear. (Number 2. could be applicable in this passage as well.)
---5. Inhale and retain air.
Place the tongue on the reed and release the air. No note will sound. Remove the tongue and the return it to the reed. Repeat, maintaining the exhalation throughout. (Obviously no sound can be produced when the tongue is touching the reed as its vibration is restrained.)
You should hear a 'tut' , 'tut' etc.. articulation.
Now, this is one method, though much taught, that I approach with care. With separated notes, I find that un-productive tension builds in my body while I have the tongue on the reed and am exhaling. Try separating the notes by 4 or 5 seconds, maintaining the air-pressure behind the reed, and see what occurs for you.
Also, sitting red-faced, blowing against a silenced reed awaiting an cue from the conductor with this technique can give less than reliable results.
--------------------------------------
Now these options need be explored by the reader with a keen ear, and awareness of air usage (again, I urge you to research diaphragmatic support.)
I will write later of repeated, continuous articulation, but I need to edit this post for clarity. And I think there is sufficient information for investigation.
-Jason
Post Edited (2012-04-28 00:54)
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Author: Buster
Date: 2012-04-28 00:59
I've revisited the previous post twice correcting some typos, attempting to clarify etc... and will do so again later.
I do see a few important statements absent that bear stating.
-These "exercises", though to call them so is an overstatement, are by no measure a comprehensive list of staccato. And some mixing of these ingredients is valid as long as the end result is what is desired.
-Quite importantly, the way a note begins can be varied once a basic grasp of this whole 'diaphragmatic release' business is achieved. The way a note, and thus a phrase begins can have great bearing on what comes after.
-I have violated my statement, to a point, that we cannot say *what* to do. However, I have left out what all of these actions should feel like; simply listing a basic outline of action that the reader can explore for themselves.
-Jason
Post Edited (2012-04-28 01:00)
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Author: ned
Date: 2012-04-28 06:20
Buster wrote: ''Taking a written statement to be true simply because someone of stature, or admiration, wrote it down is dangerous.''
Yes, indeed.......................all correspondents to this BB should take note!
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Author: The_Clarinetist
Date: 2012-04-28 08:33
When I searched for "reed" i got 46 matches in this thread. However, no one seemed to mention anything about the quality and parameters of the reed. Instead focus has been on how the tongue should move in relation to the reed an so forth. That is important and a technique that I believe comes with practice. But if the staccatos still get too distinct one should consider choosing a harder reed. A harder reed will result in a softer staccato, though it might impair flexibility.
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Author: Buster
Date: 2012-04-28 19:09
ned,
With respect,
If you wish that I cease to write, then please say so directly. Or if I should refrain from posting after anybody in varying threads, feel free to openly state the same. Regardless of anything inferred from differing threads, my ultimate aim in posting is not to confuse nor play court-jester.
I am sure I do not fall into the stature nor admiration category, but am not sure who (or whom) the target audience is of your post is.
Jason
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Author: mihalis
Date: 2012-04-28 23:10
Jason, please keep it up. People should be able to see the wood from the trees.
Mike.
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Author: ned
Date: 2012-04-29 11:00
Buster wrote: ''If you wish that I cease to write, then please say so directly.''
Not at all........it's not my prerogative in any event.
My view is that everyone here has a story to tell, be it long or short and, as you will have gathered I prefer it short.............but that's just me.
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Author: The_Clarinetist
Date: 2012-04-29 11:40
I agree with ned. People in need of advice open threads and too often respondents throw in long irrelevant posts making it hard and time consuming for interested readers to go through the conversation in order to pick up something of value or contributing with something themselves. A thread with long posts lacking in substance and drifting away from the original topic fails to attract people who might actually have something to offer and the author is left unanswered.
I did not mean to offend anyone personally, I am merely expressing my general opinion based on previous experience and frustration. I realise of course that this comment per se is OT but I think this is a matter of concern that deserves more attention here on the BB.
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Author: Buster
Date: 2012-04-29 19:11
Very well,
-The air must be present before the reed can sound.
-Choose whatever syllable you wish... but it's al,al,al or ,ut,ut,ut, un,un,un,un etc...
-Don't hit the reed so hard.
-Jason
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Author: brycon
Date: 2012-04-29 20:20
When searching out clarinet advice via internet message board, I much prefer to read a short, yet convoluted catch-phrase (i.e. "tip of the tongue to the tip of the reed") than a thoughtful and incisive, albeit longer post...
Derp!
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Author: Tony Pay ★2017
Date: 2012-04-29 21:41
When learning mathematics and science, too, I always preferred to read the short, simple and easy to understand explanations, rather than the long and complicated arguments.
Tony
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Author: Tony Pay ★2017
Date: 2012-04-30 15:19
...at least, I did until I realised that that meant I never got to understand what I wanted to understand.
Tony
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Author: Jhall
Date: 2012-04-30 22:13
A fellow clarinet player suggested to tongue with just one taste bud.
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Author: Tony Pay ★2017
Date: 2012-04-30 23:54
Jhall wrote:
>> A fellow clarinet player suggested to tongue with just one taste bud.>>
I thought that was my line....but I always say, two:-)
Thing is, it takes almost no contact in the upper register to stop the reed. In the chalumeau, you need more -- search on 'embrasure' in the Klarinet archives.
Tony
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Author: Buster
Date: 2012-05-01 00:42
To post what I had written regarding sustained articulation, in a continuous line, would be treading into the realm of plagiarization in lieu of the link Tony posted (in a recent thread.)
http://test.woodwind.org/clarinet/BBoard/read.html?f=1&i=316748&t=316712&v=t
If I may add a few brief thoughts; which by no means should be taken as an addendum to the above link....
-The clarinet's audible sound is a result of the excitation of the air already present inside of the clarinet. (To state it more precisely, a standing wave is created. The sound we hear is energy loss from that wave.) The vibration of the reed is what causes this excitation.
-The vibration of the reed is caused by an imbalance in air pressure: in our case we generate a higher air pressure in our mouth than what is present inside of the clarinet--- air exits and the reed vibrates. (Hypothetically, if one could create a lower air pressure in the mouth than what is present in the clarinet, air would rush into the oral cavity and vibrate the reed, exciting the standing wave just the same. I found a link to French-Hornist that can do just this, creating a surprisingly good "sucky" sound ;-)
-Given that the vibration of the reed is driven by air, we must accept the fact that the tongue only serves to define the starting and stopping of sound the air has generated. (Leaving "quality" of articulation out of the equation for now....)
-The beginning of a note is caused by air-driven reed vibration!
Now, one can use the tongue to restrain the reed from vibrating, but make no mistake that once the tongue is removed, the air is causing the reed to begin vibrating. From there, and only with that understanding, we can begin to explore the varying usages of the tongue. Or exploration of how we end the note. (And it bears taking in mind that whatever "spoken" consonant one thinks of, the actual physiological movement of the tongue in clarinet articulation surely varies from that spoken letter. We can perhaps even say that the consonant we use is simply a metaphor for the effect we wish to elicit.)
All of this may seem a bit too much, or excessively explanatory for those seeking brevity and simple answers. But something important struck me in looking over this entire thread; there is a simple matter that has been left completely unaddressed. An essential matter that is unavoidable if we want to try and get to the heart of matters....... and actually teach something...........
Perhaps it merits a new topic
-Jason
Post Edited (2012-05-01 04:51)
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