 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: Tony Pay ★2017
Date: 2012-04-20 18:52
You're playing 2nd clarinet in the Enigma Variations by Elgar. It's a very hot day, and the auditorium is hot too; no air conditioning, alas. You get to Variation 13, which ends with an isolated pppp C#, one ledger line below the stave, joining the first clarinet's E.
It's the third in the chord of A major (in Bb transposition), so you know it needs to be flatter than equal temperament. What's more, you know that that C# is a sharp note on most clarinets, and certainly on yours.
Technically, how do you go about playing it?
(Experienced professionals, hold back, please:-)
Tony
Post Edited (2012-04-20 18:55)
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Author: TJTG
Date: 2012-04-20 19:45
Finger a B and use the 2nd from the top (i think) trill key. It will be muffled and flat.
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Author: Sylvain
Date: 2012-04-20 21:59
Got lots of time to get ready, so I would pull barrel and middle joint.
Alternatively, pick up the A clarinet and shade the D with left ring finger.
--
Sylvain Bouix <sbouix@gmail.com>
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Author: Lelia Loban ★2017
Date: 2012-04-20 22:24
Since I don't know exactly how the first clarinet player's E will come out, I want to be able to adjust my note on the fly, so I keep it simple: I play the normal fingering with thumb, first finger, middle finger and ring finger coveringtheir usual holes, and then take advantage of the fact that the fifth finger, which raises the note from C to C-sharp, is also the only finger that *opens* a hole. So I flat it a little, by not opening that key all the way. In other words, I make that key behave as if it plays flat because of a pad that's too thick. If the note starts coming out too flat, I press down the key a little harder to open the hole a little more.
But in real life, if any, what I'd prefer to do is know the weather forecast in advance, know there's no air conditioning and take my clarinet that has both key stacks on one stick of wood: no center joint. That way the C#/G# hole is in the best place for good intonation instead of being a compromise to avoid drilling the hole smack through the center joint. I can adjust the intonation of the whole clarinet by pulling out the barrel a little and using a softer reed tham normal, instead of messing around quite so much with that one note.
Lelia
http://www.scoreexchange.com/profiles/Lelia_Loban
To hear the audio, click on the "Scorch Plug-In" box above the score.
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Author: Bob Bernardo
Date: 2012-04-21 00:20
The first chair part, the solo's are really great. The piece in general is one of my favorites to play! You can really show off your sound quality and the solo's are not too hard to play.
The first part "E" can often be played flat. If I were you I'd ask the first player to play the notes just before the E and then when you hit the E both of you hold it and then try to adjust the intonation. You can probably do this during a break or just before your next rehearsal.
Then figure out how you both can play this in tune. I think both of you need to make adjustments.
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Author: tictactux ★2017
Date: 2012-04-21 01:11
being a 2nd and 3rd part player, I'm used to drop or pinch my jaw in order to match the other players.
Use your ears more than your fingers. When in doubt, play a rest. Especially at pppp.
That's what we have rehearsals for, no?
--
Ben
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Author: davyd
Date: 2012-04-21 02:47
I wouldn't do anything differently from what I had done in rehearsal. If there's that much of a problem with the C#4, it would have come to light in rehearsal, and any adjustment would have been made either there, or in a practice session, or by a repair tech. Under the climate conditions specified, everyone will be sharp to one degree or another.
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Author: alanporter
Date: 2012-04-21 03:03
Use a plastic clarinet. Much more amenable to climate changes.
tiaroa@shaw.ca
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Author: Buster
Date: 2012-04-21 06:51
Sorry, but I can't resist at least pointing out some things that are a tad askew......
Remembering that this is an "on the fly" case:
1. Expecting the principal to adjust to "help" the 2nd clarinetist in a case of chord tuning like this is a tad wrong.
The E does need to be adjusted, but not to the aid of the 2nd clarinetist. (The E needs to be 2 cents sharp in Just tuning.)
First-line E is typically a flat note to begin with on virtually every clarinet I have played, so the principal is likely dealing with that. But if the temperature is quite hot, that will throw a wrench into things for them.
Additionally, this E lies at the end of a long sustained line, ending at pppp as well. Taking into account that pitch tends to climb at softer dynamics, perhaps considering a case where the principal may have taken the molto espressivo a bit too "liberally" (and of course not taken a breath before the C natural 3 bars earlier) and is running out of air, the E in this case may need some "clean-up" to fit into the A major chord sustained in the violas, celli and timpani at the fermata. (Paying particular attention to the celli..... but why?)
Expecting the principal to adjust pitch for, or "help", the 2nd is simply not applicable in this particular case. (To sleep well at night, we must disregard the principal's likely higher salary to ignore such an inequity as this is ;-)
2. I'll just assume that relying on a plastic clarinet was more of a wry joke than an actual suggestion.
3. Performance conditions are rarely the same as a rehearsal's; or perhaps this is a run-out concert where only a brief warm-up period is an option. I would not feel comfortable relying on what I had done in a previous rehearsal without thought.
As Lelia noted, instant adjustments are an essential skill. Thankfully, in this case, we are able to hear a sustained concert G prior to our entrance another voice for reference.....
----------------------------------
Now I know not how many years are needed to qualify for 'experienced' so I won't give a technical answer ;-)
...But I have a few questions of my own that may aide (and I hope Tony will not take offense as I am not trying to over-complicate this):
-What is the function of the sustained concert G prior to the final chord?
-What is the tonal center prior to the final chord?
-Is our (Bb transposed) C# required to be about 14 cents flat as is typical in Just intonation, or is it needed to be slightly higher, or lower, than that to "sound" in-tune? How does that tie-in to the very high temperature and what we technically can/could do?
Certainly one of the hairiest entrances in the standard orchestral literature at any rate..
-Jason
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Author: Alexis
Date: 2012-04-21 08:26
Gut feeling - as normal, and possibly adjusting sharp!
Cello and timpani G is the mediant of E flat major and the tonic of G major, and it will remain the same pitch from its entrance until the end.
As has been mentioned, the top note of a major third should be flatter. However, if that top note (the mediant) is not flat, the third can be remedied (in isolation at least) by making the tonic sharper. In this situation, as the mediant will not be adjusted, the notes above it (for example the first clarinet concert B flat and their E flats) will need to be played sharper. Also as mentioned, the end of a long phrase, so potentially pushing upwards. Then there is that weird thing that happens with E flat clarinets and piccolos, where they need to play a bit sharp to sit on top of the texture properly. The 1st clarinet concert D is the highest note of the texture, so it might want to sound a bit sharper so as not to 'sound' flat.
I also think that the (implied) semitone movement from the B flat in Eb flat major section to the B in G major should be wider rather than narrow.
With regards to temperature, you won't be the only one affected. So will your colleague. And the rest of the wind section. And given the wind heavy nature of the piece, probably the string sections. Turns out, everyone is playing sharp.
Post Edited (2012-04-21 10:19)
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Author: Alexis
Date: 2012-04-21 12:30
But, technically, all I would be doing is listening, imagining the note before I play it. And not playing too softly. After all, I'm the only one with the 3rd
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2012-04-21 14:04
Listen to what's going on around you and adjust to make it fit - especially with the 1st's E. Either use embouchure adjustments or finger corrections (or a combination of both) to tune it better. Play the C# with the RH fingers very close to the rings and hold down the RH low E touch if needed.
But if the pitch is generally sharp all round, you may not need to use any finger corrections or embouchure adjustments, but you'll still have to be aware that your C# sits well in the chord. Chances are you won't be thinking too deeply about this at the time as you'll be going on instinct.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: Ken Shaw ★2017
Date: 2012-04-21 18:26
Remembering that the problem is to lower your pitch, and not to have other players adjust, there are a few possibilities.
1. If you have time before and after, pull out at the middle joint, or maybe even remove the lower joint and shade the bore with your right hand.
2. Put down your right ring finger on the edge of the ring, without covering the hole (which closes the pad attached to the rings) and open the sliver key. It depends on the way your clarinet responds, and you may need to cover the right middle or ring finger hole.
3. Lay your tongue flat on the reed, which forces the pitch down. (John Denman did this very well, getting low E down to Eb).
Ken Shaw
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Author: Buster
Date: 2012-04-21 21:02
For the record, not all instruments climb in pitch in "hot" conditions.
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Author: John Peacock
Date: 2012-04-21 23:05
I know Tony has pointed out before that you play a little sharper immediately after a breath (less CO2 in the airstream). So one thing that might help is for the 2nd to breath well in advance (e.g. when the 1st starts the last solo). But I suspect this makes less difference than relaxing embouchure and keeping RH fingers close to the holes.
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Author: Buster
Date: 2012-04-22 01:15
Yup, letting the CO2 build up a bit will help (obviously don't over-do it.)
A drink of cold (or as cool as you can maintain it) water will also have an effect of lowering the pitch.... had to use that one myself a time or 2.
-Jason
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2012-04-22 01:32
Just wondering if all the answers so far are all deemed correct to some degree or other, or if there's only the one correct answer to this from just the one point of view and that we're all wrong.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: Jack Kissinger
Date: 2012-04-22 06:46
I hesitate to attempt this question because I've learned (from similar instances in the past that there are probably hidden issues way beyond my pay grade that I have completely overlooked. But I'll dive in, anyway, and try to learn something. As the 2nd clarinet, I agree with Jason that it's my responsibility to match the 1st. From experimenting, I expect that I will probably need to flatten my note around 20 cents -- perhaps a little less -- and, heat aside, I should already have an estimate of the adjustment I need to make from rehearsals. (And the heat does affect everyone, after all.) If that's the case, I will trust the 1st clarinet to play his/her note in tune and will use my right ring finger to depress the lower joint rings (closing the top key on the lower joint) and my right middle finger to depress the sliver key. The lower joint rings alone lower my tone on the C# by about 30 cents. Opening the sliver key brings it back 10 cents (and gives the note good timbre) for a net reduction of 20 cents, which will probably be close enough to fine tune with my lip (if my ears manage to hear a problem). FWIW, for me, anyway, the spatula keys have little if any effect on C#4.
We're used to adjusting the throat and altissimo notes by adding other keys, often including one of the spatula keys, but, in fact, we can fine tune the pitch and timbre of many other notes in a similar manner. As a general rule, opening holes below a note tends to raise pitch while closing holes tends to lower pitch, e.g., pressing the Eb spatula (opening the Eb tone hole) can bring up a slightly flat D4 or E4. IMO, it's probably worth spending some time identifying which notes can be adjusted and what effect using different additional keys can have on those notes -- maybe even preparing an expanded fingering chart for one's clarinet. I am aware of some clarinetists who believe that it is foolish to try to fine tune notes with the embouchure when adding a key here or there will do the trick.
Now, can somebody tell me how to raise C#4 at pp to match a trumpet in unison? I have to solve that problem by next Sunday.
Best regards,
jnk
Post Edited (2012-04-22 15:38)
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Author: Ken Shaw ★2017
Date: 2012-04-22 12:36
Buster -
But when the mice got their answer, it was the end of life, the universe and everything.
Ken Shaw
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Author: Lelia Loban ★2017
Date: 2012-04-22 13:15
Only this time the answer won't be "42." Since we're dealing with Enigma Variations, the answer probably will turn out to be something fairly obvious we've all overlooked (Theme: "You're all idiots.") followed by variations thereupon. Oh well. That's why Theme and Variations pieces are so popular, after all. Listeners get involved even if we think it might be wiser not to.
Lelia
http://www.scoreexchange.com/profiles/Lelia_Loban
To hear the audio, click on the "Scorch Plug-In" box above the score.
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Author: Campana
Date: 2012-04-22 15:20
If you'll excuse a non musician joining the fun. The speed of sound will increase about 2% under these conditions, from about 344 to 351 m/s. So I'll take a wild guess and say suck an ice cube.
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Author: Buster
Date: 2012-04-22 15:51
Ken,
This time there is no one answer; we were provided the question.
and in the movie version Earth was replaced with a back-up copy, all was restored as it previously was, and only a few people were even aware anything had occurred.
Gotta love belated April Fool's jokes.......
(I'll disregard the date on which this was posted- only some of you may understand that one.)
Tony,
Even though I chimed in, I really wasn't trying to "over-complicate" the fun. But I do apologize for adding in the other Enigma with the sustained-G quandary. ?-|
0101010
just my 2 bits
-Jason
Post Edited (2012-04-22 15:56)
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Author: bradfordlloyd
Date: 2012-04-22 16:10
It won't matter since with a hot auditorium and no air conditioning and a piece no one really wants to hear, there will be no audience and the concert will be canceled.
The tree won't fall in the forest, which doesn't matter because no one was even there to hear it. (The musician's union files a complaint, however)
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Author: Lelia Loban ★2017
Date: 2012-04-22 17:52
>> It won't matter since with a hot auditorium and no air conditioning and a piece no one really wants to hear, there will be no audience and the concert will be canceled.
>>
The hot auditorium might keep me out, but -- a piece no one wants to hear? Though I've never had a chance to play Elgar's Enigma Variations, it's one of my all-time favorite works of music. And to judge from the number of times it's been recorded, it doesn't exactly make audiences run screaming.
Lelia
http://www.scoreexchange.com/profiles/Lelia_Loban
To hear the audio, click on the "Scorch Plug-In" box above the score.
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Author: bradfordlloyd
Date: 2012-04-22 21:46
Sorry, I was overstating the case for dramatic effect. I happened to love the piece as well....
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Author: ned
Date: 2012-04-22 23:26
putz writes: ''If you'll excuse a non musician joining the fun.''
They're all deadly serious here Mr Putz - let me assure you. And as there is generally only one clarinet in a jazz band, I'm nonplussed by the question anyway.
In actual fact I'm just waiting around for Tony Pay (the Judge Dredd of the BB ![[tongue]](http://test.woodwind.org/clarinet/BBoard/smileys/smilie6.gif) ) to give his verdict............
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Author: Buster
Date: 2012-04-22 23:46
excuse the irony as I would prefer see this thread simply die away....
I think waiting for a reply from Tony on this one may be like waiting for Bartleby.....
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Author: Buster
Date: 2012-04-23 04:45
(a viable option Jack, yet given the suicidal fixations of those waiting, a tad dark even for me ;-)
Ultimately the immortal words of Bartleby ring a much stronger chord in my head....
Me thinks I should have written "Waiting for a reply from Tony on this one may be like waiting for a reply from Bartleby."
hindsight yada-yada......... "Ah Humanity!"
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Author: ned
Date: 2012-04-23 05:22
Buster wrote: ''I think waiting for a reply from Tony on this one may be like waiting for Bartleby.....''
I think not..............mark my words ![[cool]](http://test.woodwind.org/clarinet/BBoard/smileys/cool.gif)
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Author: ned
Date: 2012-04-23 05:29
Buster also wrote: ''...........yet given the suicidal fixations of those waiting,.......''
Yes indeed...........very perceptive. I guess Buster, that you include yourself in this group of TP acolytes? Or not...............?
I don't want to misjudge you of course as your lengthy reply earlier, indicates that you know SOMETHING about this topic, although, I have to confess, it's well over my head.
Good luck, and may your wounds heal rapidly ![[wink]](http://test.woodwind.org/clarinet/BBoard/smileys/smilie3.gif)
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Author: Tony Pay ★2017
Date: 2012-04-23 14:40
The reason I thought of this question is that it addresses a very unusual situation for a clarinet player: namely, that you have to play one isolated note in tune and at a demanding dynamic; you know beforehand that, unless you compensate somehow, it's certain to be wrong in a particular way -- in this case, sharp; AND you have plenty of time both before and after the actual entry to make actual physical changes to the instrument and then to undo them in order to continue.
Normally, we encounter a wide variety of problems in the course of a few seconds: THIS attack needs to be gentle, THAT note needs not to stick out, THERE'S a demanding interval that needs to be super-legato, THAT held note needs to be beautiful, and THIS bit of passagework needs a tightish sound so as to be clear…etc etc. Of course, a lot of that occurs automatically if we're experienced and in practice; but no amount of practice can overcome a problem that lies in the inflexibility of the instrument.
So we need to choose a fixed yet flexible instrumental setup that we can modulate moment by moment, using changes of air pressure, tongue position, embouchure and fingering. Only then can we solve sequentially each one of the variety of problems that come at us in a page of music.
Now, of the various answers to my question that people provided, the one that I personally favour is the 'pulling out' one. But I would be more extreme; I would pull out a 'silly' amount, at the barrel, and then approach the C# from below, as it were, lipping the note UP to whatever degree was required. I'd have had the opportunity earlier in the piece -- and in rehearsal too, as someone pointed out -- to gauge what degree of pulling out would be right; and the greater degree of control afforded by the tighter embouchure would work in my favour in the attempt to produce a focussed but nevertheless pppp attack.
As an aside, I have to admit I've never played this C# in anger (is that a known expression hereabouts?); but I did once play first clarinet in the piece to Bernard Bree's second clarinet, in the RPO, on an occasion when he (and we) discovered AT THAT PRECISE MOMENT that there was water in his C# key. The Mendelssohn quote was immediately rechristened as actually coming from the work, "A Calm Sea SHARP and a Prosperous Voyage":-)
Why do we immediately understand the phrase "a 'silly' amount"? Well, I say that it's because we instinctively know that we couldn't possibly play most music on a clarinet set up in that way. The throat notes would be out of the question flat, to begin with. And they would be INFLEXIBLY flat: no amount of practice could get them up to pitch.
But for this purpose, in these circumstances, the instrument is ideally calibrated -- provided we address it appropriately.
There's a connection with this 'biting' business, too. I say that it's not a good idea to bite because it limits the flexibility of our embouchure, which needs to be in a position to 'learn' how to negotiate a musical line. But if we have an isolated note, flexibility is not the name of the game. We only need to solve the one problem; and anything -- any clarinet setup that works, together with any embouchure setup that works -- will serve.
So, looking at the bigger picture, we don't bite because mostly it doesn't serve us. We don't bite for our OWN reasons. Recognising that sometimes it doesn't matter -- just as sometimes it doesn't matter that we're pulled out a 'silly' amount -- may paradoxically help us to understand and embody the notions that serve us.
Tony
Post Edited (2012-04-23 16:35)
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Author: kdk ★2017
Date: 2012-04-23 15:15
Tony Pay wrote:
>
> As an aside, I have to admit I've never played this C# in anger
> (is that a known expression hereabouts?);
I'll bite - I don't know what this means (since you asked if it's a known expression, I assume it is an expression and not a typo).
Karl
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Author: Tony Pay ★2017
Date: 2012-04-23 15:32
Karl wrote:
>> "Played in anger" - I don't know what this means.>>
It means, 'played in a real situation', in this case, a concert rather than practice or rehearsal.
Internet search seems to show perhaps military origin: "a shot fired in anger" but now extended to non-aggressive use.
Tony
Post Edited (2012-04-23 15:53)
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Author: Buster
Date: 2012-04-23 16:54
ned,
acolyte? certainly not.... respecting? yes....
as I said earlier there is no one specific answer (unless you really wish to accept 42)
I truly was expecting an "I would prefer not to" (or alternately titled Also Sprach Bartleby) reply, opposed to the more "specific" one that was posted....
Experienced professional? I knew not if 6 years fulfilled the 'experienced' criteria, so I refrained from giving an answer of what I personally would do.
Conversely, I knew not if 'professional' simply referred to one whom is employed as a performer, or one whom is a performer and possesses the ability to be an experienced enigmatic wordsmith. I attempted a bit of the latter; ultimately unsuccessfully. I should know my limitations.
Though I fully admit I missed the connection between this post and the "not 'not-biting' " of the whole "blowing-down" business; perhaps due to the title of the Elgar's composition.
Yet I find no need to lick any wounds. Perhaps I am simply dense.
-Jason
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Author: Tony Pay ★2017
Date: 2012-04-23 18:51
I did have in mind the sort of post I finally made when I asked the original question; but I didn't know quite how the thread would develop. I suppose I added the bit about 'professionals hold back' because I thought the normally quite sensible stuff about how to play a bit flatter when you need to would be discouraged if someone immediately said, well, pull out.
Sorry if people were confused.
The idea of significantly pulling out in the middle for an extended passage like the 'Fountains of Rome' chalumeau solo in F# major didn't occur to me when I was young. Even had I thought of it, I might vaguely have dismissed it as 'cheating'.
No longer.
I was also reminded of my late lamented colleague Alan Hacker. I remember a student on a clarinet course we were teaching going on to him about how Karl Leister had played the end of the Brahms clarinet quintet impeccably, "using the standard fingering for high D!!!"
"I don't give a flying **** what fingering he used," snarled Alan. "What counts is the music!"
And rightly so.
Tony
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Author: Buster
Date: 2012-04-23 19:45
Jack,
pull the bottom joint off completely, if you have time, to raise that C#4
edit (I forgot the key ingredient) play C natural with the bottom joint removed
-Jason
Post Edited (2012-04-23 21:26)
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2012-04-23 20:07
Only players with articulated C#/G# keys through to full Boehms are buggered as they can't pull the middle tenon out. But they can diminish the tonehole diameter by twisting the joints round a fraction, but then they risk losing either the long Bb or the notes from C downwards if the RH rings won't close the C tonehole.
But then again, one local conductor said 'there's no such thing as ppp in orchestral music' - which he meant as playing so quietly (to the point of subtone) that the audience won't even hear it over all the coughing, wheezing, creaking, rustling and traffic noise going on. Although this is more applicable to the wind players than it is to string players as there's loads of them scraping away.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: Buster
Date: 2012-04-23 21:29
Chris P wrote:
> But then again, one local conductor said 'there's no such thing
> as ppp in orchestral music' - which he meant as playing so
> quietly (to the point of subtone)....
Not sure that always holds true. But a subject for another thread.
-Jason
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Author: Tony Pay ★2017
Date: 2012-04-23 22:00
Buster wrote:
>> Chris P wrote:
"But then again, one local conductor said 'there's no such thing as ppp in orchestral music' - which he meant as playing so quietly (to the point of subtone)...."
Not sure that always holds true. But a subject for another thread.>>
In THIS thread, it clearly isn't true. The presence of the third is perceptible even when almost inaudible as a note in its own right.
I think the word 'local' is well chosen, the word 'conductor' perhaps not.
Tony
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Author: Jack Kissinger
Date: 2012-04-24 02:44
Thanks, Jason. While I do have time to remove the joint, unfortunately, I have to play a B immediately after the C#.
Best regards,
jnk
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Author: Katrina
Date: 2012-04-24 04:14
So Tony I'm curious as to why you asked this question.
Not critical, just wondering if there was a point.
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Author: clarnibass
Date: 2012-04-24 04:41
I guess that's one of the variations...
>> ...but then they risk losing either the long Bb or the notes from C downwards if the RH rings won't close the C tonehole. <<
Adjust and/or modify the bridge linkage so that doesn't happen.
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Author: Tony Pay ★2017
Date: 2012-04-25 19:51
Katrina wrote:
>> So Tony I'm curious as to why you asked this question.
Not critical, just wondering if there was a point.>>
I wrote just:
:)
(which somehow didn't turn into a yellow thingy, and I see still doesn't:-(
I thought I'd leave it at that; probably your questions were jokes, given that I'd already explained my point at length.
But, on reflection, I want to say more.
What mostly happens here is that people ask questions. Some of those questions are naive; but also -- perhaps for that very reason -- sometimes they are fundamental.
Those questions are then answered here by two sorts of people: firstly, by relatively knowledgeable people, who give the (limited) sort of good advice that you can give over the internet; but secondly, by relatively ignorant people, who give their unhelpful and often secondhand opinions.
Unashamedly, I am someone who is experienced, thoughtful and knowledgeable. I find myself therefore in a position often to contribute something helpful as an answer to such questions.
But I, -- and some others here who are also sufficiently experienced, thoughtful, etc etc -- when we contribute, are then often drowned out by other people's stupid OPINIONS.
Because -- of course -- everyone is equal on the internet.
In addition to stupid opinions on this BBoard, the literature on how to play the clarinet is in my opinion, disgraceful. For example, we have David Pino, telling everyone to relax almost to the point of collapse; we have Leon Russianoff and Arnold Jacobs, totally misexplaining breathing and blowing on the clarinet; and practically no-one saying what's true about articulation. (Look at the recent threads on that topic.)
So, to combat both of those in detail, I sometimes asked carefully designed questions -- with my own ultimate answer in mind -- that give everyone an opportunity to contribute; but that nevertheless then result in an audience which is prepared -- because they've thought about it -- to understand what I eventually say.
Then, if they want, they can argue with it.
The idea is to collect around a topic a proper, thinking audience -- as opposed to the 'audience' that normally collects around a topic.
And, beyond that, the idea is to get people to THINK ABOUT THINGS FOR THEMSELVES in general.
Does that answer you?
Tony
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Author: William
Date: 2012-04-25 20:14
What I like best about this BB is the opportunity to learn a lot from the discussions resulting from questions, both intelligent and stupid. Great to have you back, Tony.
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Author: clarnibass
Date: 2012-04-26 04:10
>> which somehow didn't turn into a yellow thingy <<
Don't worry, some of us are colourblind
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The Clarinet Pages
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