 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: oca
Date: 2012-03-28 23:17
I just want to double check on a subject that I have gotten mixed responses about. Some have said that the noise originates from the reed; some say that the noise originates from the longitudinal pressure waves caused by the action of the reed. I have always believed the second one but my band-mate has now brought up the first theory.
Well moving on. In a recent recording of my concert band performance, I noticed that every time trumpets play, all other instruments are drowned out. When marching with the clarinet, all the woodwinds in the band combined can't project as far as the trumpet can. Why can the trumpet project so well?
What are some ways to increase the amplitude of the sound produced by the clarinet? One way is to disturb more air via bigger reed, but that would also call for bigger mouthpiece and bigger everything. The doctor's product "power barrel" seems interesting. And I'm not worried in sacrificing tone in order to achieve volume.
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Author: kdk ★2017
Date: 2012-03-29 00:13
I think the real question is, why in a concert band setting are the trumpets drowning everyone else out every time they play? The best way to deal with it isn't to find some way to make the clarinets play as loud as trumpets but for the conductor to balance the ensemble so everything is heard in a musically appropriate way. All you do by making everyone else play louder is give everyone involved (players and audience) a headache.
For projection in general, which is a different issue from relative volume levels (the trumpets are louder than the clarinets wherever you're standing - far away or right in the middle of the band) the most important thing to increase it is to use responsive equipment - reed, mouthpiece and instrument. I can't parse out the physics or deal directly with the question you begin with, although I'm not sure why the two concepts you describe are really separate - if the pressure waves are "caused by the action of the reed," then I would think the sound ultimately originates from the reed that causes the pressure waves. The two ideas don't seem mutually exclusive. I do know from experience that a very hard reed (or one that's too hard for the mouthpiece being used) will dull the sound and reduce projection. I also know that without redesigning the instrument or micing it (either of which changes the nature of the sound), a clarinet will never be able to match a trumpet's volume.
Karl
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Author: oca
Date: 2012-03-29 00:32
But why does does a trumpet project louder than the clarinet?
Also, look at fipple flutes. The reed would be analogous to the fipple, but in this case time the fipple is not moving. They are both things that causes the sound, but the not the ultimate origin of the sound. The fipple causes an oscillation in air flow in and out of the flute, which is responsible for the pressure waves, thus resulting in the frequency of the sound. The reed in a way stops and releases air into the bore of the clarinet, which is responsible for the pressure waves, thus resulting in the frequency of the sound.
I know that the band is imbalanced, but the trumpets have their responsibility in playing softer to meet the woodwinds and the woodwinds have their responsibility of not making the trumpets have to come down as much. The quick fix would be to dampen the trumpets, but I would like to learn more about projection for when I have to solo or really project.
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Author: EEBaum
Date: 2012-03-29 01:13
"I think the real question is, why in a concert band setting are the trumpets drowning everyone else out every time they play?"
Poor orchestration. Rampant in band lit.
-Alex
www.mostlydifferent.com
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Author: mvjohnso
Date: 2012-03-29 02:37
One major reason is the acoustics of the two instruments. The trumpet is so loud because it is directional, whereas a clarinet is omni-directional (well not entirely). This is because all of the trumpet sound always comes out of the bell, and clarinet sound comes out of whatever tonehole that it escapes through. And, direction matters a great deal in sound. Just take the trumpet and the french horn, similar instruments but one points ahead and the other behind. And, such directionalities largely make the trumpet way louder than the french horn. In fact, they one is not really much loader (as far as SPL goes at the source) than the other it is just perceived by the audience to be the case. Also, the acoustical purity of the trumpet (compared to clarinet) may have some effect. As, clarinet has an awkward harmonically (it is set up in 12ths as you know) that may contribute to it being more difficult to produce sound on. As the harmonic vibrations of the the 12th tone series (and not the chromatic one) will necessarily fight with each other and cause more noise cancellation than any instrument set up in octaves (basically everything else). On another note clarinet can play louder than trumpets, I know this as I personally have the problem (or blessing) of being load as ****. Was told all through middle school that I was too loud, went to high school and had the privlidge of getting my director to say in all honesty on the field (and during a normal mf full band (150 people) parts none the less) "for me to play quieter as I was drowning out the brass." But, I am an anomaly as far as air compacity and lung control, mostly because of my size. Also, I think ones loudness threshold is determined by reed strength. This is not to say that I do not play loader on softer reeds, but to build the air pressure and support needed one must to build a tolerance (IMHO). Played on V12 5++'s for a very brief time (super constrictive), then switched to 5's (or Rico GCSE 4.5) as a "comfortable" reed, also, I play Jazz on the 5JB w/ 3.5's (loudest set up ever). To give an illustration.
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Author: hans
Date: 2012-03-29 03:46
"What are some ways to increase the amplitude of the sound produced by the clarinet?"
A larger bore clarinet tends to produce a louder sound than a smaller bore. Artie Shaw said so, and Ross Wooldridge told me the same thing.
Hans
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Author: cigleris
Date: 2012-03-29 06:09
OCA, you should be worried about sacrificing sound for volume.
Peter Cigleris
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Author: mvjohnso
Date: 2012-03-29 07:24
A narrow mouthpiece cavity may help. An addition of a spoiler can help, I've only used the dental wax kind but I hear that Runyon's spoilers (some magic with metal reeds apparently) can help. I would only use it in jazz though.
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Author: Campana
Date: 2012-03-29 08:13
I would think that the main reason for difference in loudness and projection between a trumpet and a clarinet is that the trumpet passes over double the volume of air.
The diameter of the throat of a trumpet mouthpiece and the slit area of the open space between reed and facing are about the same at about 10 sq mm. but the reed vibrates between open and closed which cuts total air flow by half.
The trumpet mouthpiece throat is followed by a venturi like gradual expansion, aerodynamically perfect. The mouthpiece of the reed an aerodynamic nightmare resulting in loss of energy.
The blowing geometry of a trumpet allows max effort, the limiting factor being the available lung power. The embouchure of a clarinet player is very limiting in a volume blowing competition.
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Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2012-03-29 09:44
Two more things about the 'balance' issue. I would agree that the conductor is the MAIN problem. Many of them think the art is in how they flap their arms rather than dealing with the sound they are getting versus the sound they SHOULD be getting (whole other story). Then there is the whole CORONET thing. Many arrangements called for a majority of CORONETS not trumpets (and that's not just a euphemism!). If you've ever seen the Unites States Marine Band, they actually use six coronets to two trumpets as actually called for in most band arrangements. This is because the coronet is a conical bore instrument and plays with a naturally more soft and mellow sound (which is why most trumpet players abhor them).
As for loudness, the secret is........... AIR , AIR , AIR. You need to focus your air column (ensure there is NO obstruction to the flow from your throat such as when you think you are 'voicing' with the "ahhh" syllable when in fact all you are doing is shoving the back of your tongue into the top of your throat and blocking off the flow of air). Keep the tongue in its more natural position (or more of an "eeee" sound configuration). Finally, you need to PRESS the air out of your body by using your abdominal muscles (should feel all 'meaty' in your middle, or more like you were getting ready for some one to punch you in the stomach).
But I agree with KDK's post. The problem you describe is one of ensemble and conductor.
And if you suffer here and can't easily find a better combination somewhere else, than you just need to deal with it until you can (but get OUT as soon as you can!).
...............Paul Aviles
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Author: cigleris
Date: 2012-03-29 09:58
Paul wrote:
"As for loudness, the secret is........... AIR , AIR , AIR."
I'd have to disagree here Paul. There is no secret. The speed of the air is more important in trying to play louder and not the volume of air going through the instrument.
Peter Cigleris
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Author: Jeroen
Date: 2012-03-29 10:56
Besides the factor quantity there is the factor quality of sound.
Even when you have lots of volume (amplitude), projection can be poor due to a 'dull' sound. You then need to create more high overtones in your sound for more audible power. That's also the reason a trumpet or a picollo flute project so well and a tuba not.
You must be aware that every part in your setup has effect on this quality of sound and that claimed benefits can be contradictionary:
A large bore clarinet gives more volume but in general a darker sound.
A large tip mpc gives more volume but in general a less focused sound.
The art is to find a good setup that gives you both good projection AND a nice tone to listen to. In most situations (chamber orchestras and most symphonic orchestras) projection should be sufficient by achieving a pure, well focused tone on regular equipment. In more extreme situations (loud bands) you may have to compromise between a nice tone and carrying power.
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Author: Campana
Date: 2012-03-29 11:13
..."As for loudness, the secret is........... AIR , AIR , AIR."
I'd have to disagree here Paul. There is no secret. The speed of the air is more important in trying to play louder and not the volume of air going through the instrument.
Peter Cigleris
Chicken and egg...more air speed through fixed dimensions = more throughput = more AIR, AIR, AIR
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Author: Luuk ★2017
Date: 2012-03-29 11:36
This question (how to make woodwinds volume more balanced with brass, especially outdoors) was the original question which lead Adolphe Sax to the invention of the saxophone (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saxophone). Single reed, conical bore, large tone holes, metal. Apparently, he did not end up with some sort of enhanced clarinet (as some saxophonists may claim). Creating a 'loud clarinet' is impossible because of the acoustical principles that make a clarinet what it is.
The answer is not just pumping up the volume. Some gain could be possible, but all too often this approach leads to shrill sounds, impossibility to mix your color with the band, and lots of intonation problems.
The answer is: exploit the overtones. Relax your embouchure, maintain air pressure also during pp passages. Blend with the other clarinets and the whole group will distinctly add its harmonious color to the band. Don't try to be heard on your own. Unless you're the soloist, but then again, the rest of the band should carry and support your sound instead of drowning it out. The conductor is key in achieving this.
Some brass players maybe chose their instrument because they like the shine and glitter of it, and they sound like that. However, we all should go for depth and musicality.
By the way, Oca referred in the original post to a recording. Please be aware that a recording may not representative of what the listeners heard. It can be very informative not to play with the band and sit down in the hall and listen, once in a while.
Regards,
Luuk
Philips Symphonic Band
The Netherlands
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Author: Arnoldstang
Date: 2012-03-30 17:39
I remember playing Phantom of the Opera when we had a string bass sub show up. Unknown to everyone but him he set up a very small amp under his chair and just added enough volume to make it comfortable for him. No one noticed .......I just happened to be talking to him later over a beer.
It seems the clarinet is a different animal than a trumpet. A pickup and a small amplifier would allow the performer to relax and not overplay.
Freelance woodwind performer
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Author: mvjohnso
Date: 2012-03-30 18:14
Putz if it were only that the oboe would be the loudest instrument in around (also, give your favorite sax player a 1* then a 7* mouthpiece and you can also see the flaws in your theory). Not to say air stream is not a factor (I would suggest a narrower bored mouthpiece to concentrate the air before being released, to work like a pressure nossle on a hose). OCA, how does your band director position the band? I'm going to take a wild guess and ask if the trumpets are either directly or somewhere close to being directly behind you (as I see this happen quite often). You would be surprised about the acoustics and psychology (how it makes one play) of a good concert set-up. The higher the pitch of something the more directional the sound, and as clarinet and trumpet are pretty high, such considerations do make a difference. Also, see acoustics. As explained above clarinet does not have one direction in its sound (so many tone holes opening in many directions). But, trumpets are acoustical lazers.
Post Edited (2012-03-30 18:17)
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Author: Campana
Date: 2012-03-30 19:08
Why would the oboe be the loudest instrument around. Seems to me that an oboe's reed system is even more restrictive to air flow than a clarinets, but that's just my impression.
However, loudness is energy as measured in db (watts). Whatever instrument allows you to put the most energy into the air has a head start in being the loudest. So loudnes/energy/amplitude of the pressure wave in air is determined by 3 interrelated things...air velocity, air volume (throughput) and air pressure.
I think a trumpet just allows you to push through more air at a higher pressure than a reed instrument.
I have to admit, I'm not seeing this as a musical consideration but more as basic physics
Post Edited (2012-03-30 19:14)
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