 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: LJBraaten
Date: 2012-03-27 15:00
I have an old student clarinet that I am experimenting with, and it needs some new pads. Would a small hot glue gun work for gluing on the pads, or is this overkill?
Laurie
Laurie (he/him)
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Author: David Spiegelthal ★2017
Date: 2012-03-27 16:32
My (frequently disagreed-with) recommendation is to skip the hot glues and just use clear household silicone glue/caulk. A little dab will do it!
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Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2012-03-27 16:39
I don't see why you wouldn't want to get a stick of shellac for this. You can't 'float' a pad into place with glue ....... not as easily anyhow.
Remember, the trick isn't getting a pad into the cup, the trick is getting the pad to be flat upon the tone hole.
...................Paul Aviles
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Author: Bob Bernardo
Date: 2012-03-27 16:57
I ONLY use stick of shellac. Most repair supplies for woodwinds carry this. It's not expensive and works the way it should - seals the pads correctly. Hot glue can be a shade soft and it's possible you may not get a really good seal on the pads.
You surely can try other types of "Stuff," that heats up and dries hard.
Good question.
Designer of - Vintage 1940 Cicero Mouthpieces and the La Vecchia mouthpieces
Yamaha Artist 2015
Post Edited (2012-03-27 18:49)
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Author: David Spiegelthal ★2017
Date: 2012-03-27 17:17
Paul and Bob, have you ever tried my method? It's very easy to 'float' pads with silicone glue, because it's immediately tacky enough to hold the pad in, but stays flexible for at least half an hour so you can seat a whole stack of pads together if you like (especially handy when doing saxophones).
The vast majority of folks who object to my preferred method, have never tried it, or tried it once and didn't get the hang of it right away.
Other advantages of silicone glue: Never gets hard and brittle, doesn't let go in cold temperatures, and is easy to remove when it's time to replace the pad. And of course no worries about getting heat onto a spot on the instrument where you don't want there to be heat or flame. The ONLY disadvantage of it, in my opinion, is that you can't reseat a pad by heating up the cup and moving the pad around, you have to remove the pad altogether and re-install it.
Tradition can be a good thing; but as the younger generation seems to understand a bit better than we older folks, tradition can also be an impediment to genuine progress.
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Author: clarnibass
Date: 2012-03-27 17:28
For any glue that melts by heat, you have to heat the key cup too for the pad to glue reliably to it. If you just put some melted glue on a cold cup and put the pad, the glue is not going to be glued reliably to the cup.
As far as shellac and hot melt glue, there are many types. Using only shellac... what shellac? Only glue... what glue? I have several types of each, some shellacs I like and some I don't like. Same for hot melt glues. The specific one matters as much as the general type of glue.
As far as David's method of using silicon glue, I've tried it and actually even tried the exact same silicon he uses (plus a couple of others). There are a few issues I don't like with this method that for me are significant disadvantages. What David considers the only disadvantage (can't reseat a pad) is not the main one for me. I posted this before so you can search if you want. Or I can post again if interested.
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Author: tictactux ★2017
Date: 2012-03-27 17:31
Okay, I admit, I use hot glue. But just the stick, no gun.
For pads I cut off little bits off the glue stick, put it into the key cup and heat from below, remove from the flame as soon as the glue starts melting. The remaining heat will be enough to melt the rest without further heat. (Yes, there are glue pellets that behave exactly the same). Never had a problem with floating that way. The trick is to use just the right amount of glue.
For applying cork silencers to keys, I heat the part of the key and rub the glue stick on it a bit, just a small "snail trace" will suffice.
If you apply the glue with a gun, the pad won't be hot enough, and the glue won't stick too long.
In a nutshell - hot glue sticks yes, (ordinary) glue gun no.
--
Ben
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Author: rtmyth
Date: 2012-03-27 18:27
Ferree, I believe, sells pellets of hot-melt glue. I would give them a try, as Ridenour does on his utube pad installation session.
richard smith
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Author: MichaelW
Date: 2012-03-27 19:16
Harald Hüyng from Düsseldorf recommends hot melt glue: http://www.hueyng.de/index.php?id=24 .
You do not use the glue gun but cut small slices off the glue stick. Here you can also see the use of a “Brennblech” (burning sheet). I think this strip of sheet metal is indispensable to avoid damage to the wood and as a means for fine tuning the pad’s position. With hot melt glue or shellac I found it very convenient that you can repeat this any time. Besides, I love shellac for its old-fashioned smell. It reminds me of wandering in the forests.
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Author: Caroline Smale
Date: 2012-03-27 20:10
I am very happy to use hot melt glue - have used it in at least 1500 clarinets etc and never had a problem.
You don't need a glue gun.
My preferred technique is to heat the glue stick in the side of an alcohol lamp flame to soften it and apply to the back of the pad - it's very easy to judge and adjust the amount of glue this way and ensure whole surface is correctly covered. (of course practice and experience does help here!).
Pad is then put into cup and roughly leveled before putting key back on instrument.
Precise leveling is done by heating cup in the side of the flame and using a pad slick and feeler to adjust. In actual fact I have made my own special tools to assist and speed the process but that's beyond the scope of this post.
It's not rocket science but care and attention to precise detail is needed for quality results as indeed is selecting the correct size, type and thickness of the pad for every individual position..
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2012-03-27 23:37
My biggest gripe with hot melt glue is when it comes to replacing pads that have been stuck in with it - it is very sticky and this can be a hazard when heated as it will stick to your skin and burn you. Shellac is far less hazardous in the respect that it need far more heat to make it sticky and it can also be removed from pad cups easily. If molten shellac gets onto your skin, it will come off immediately and won't burn anywhere nearly as much )or take your skin off with it).
Buffet, Selmer and others use hot glue as do many repairers. I prefer to use shellac due to how solid it is when cooled whereas hot melt glue is still pliable. I used to use hot melt glue when I first started out, but have long since gone back to shellac as I prefer how workable it is and how easy it is to clean up.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: BflatNH
Date: 2012-03-28 03:05
I think J L Smith co. sells hot melt sticks for pads.
Refloat is easy by reheating cup with a low-temp flame or heat source.
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Author: LJBraaten
Date: 2012-03-28 15:28
Thanks for all the responses and helpful suggestions. I will probably try a variety of methods mentioned here. I ordered a kit with the tools that will make the job easier, including an alcohol lamp. It comes with shellac pellets. I may also try the hot glue method with the lamp. The caulk method sounds like it might work in a pinch, for the quick replacement of a pad.
BTW: from another area of interest I know that one can use Heet (yellow bottle only!) gasline antifreeze in an alcohol burner. (Backpackers use it in their alcohol cook stoves). It burns cleanly, as long as one uses the yellow, not red container.
Laurie
Laurie (he/him)
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2012-03-28 16:01
I use a butane gas torch for working on saxes (as I work with them on my lap)and a bunsen burner with a large Calor gas bottle that's static on my bench for clarinets and oboes.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: jim lande
Date: 2012-04-08 20:17
Dave: I have two instruments that you repadded using silicon glue -- a bass clarinet and an alto sax. Both needed to have pads re-seated to play right and my favorite repair guy was very unimpressed with the stuff. But then, he was mostly removing it.
I do most of my own work on soprano clarinets. Hot glue gun sticks come in different temperature melts. I use the low temperature mini sticks, slice off small amounts and then float pads using a triton induction soldering iron. My vision is such that I ruin pads when I use a flame. Occasionally i shim the inside of pad cups using aluminum tape. I guess that means I don't really 'float' the pads but rather build up inside the pad cup with a different material. Somebody with a better touch than I maybe could float pads on hot glue. If I put too much in a pad cup, it squeezes out. In any case, there isn't a lot of glue inside the pad cups and so I have not had the troubles mentioned above when I have replaced pads that I put in.
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Author: Bob Bernardo
Date: 2012-04-09 02:22
David - answering your question here. No I haven't tried the way you do padding. However I have an old clarinet so I'll test this. Thanks for reminding me of trying new things! Sometimes we get stuck in our ways after 45 years of playing. I was lucky to take some lessons with Hans Moenig in the '70's. He only used the shellac sticks.
With other types of glue I worry about how hard the glue is and if the pads will move just a tiny bit to cause tiny leaks; perhaps not right away, but over the months. This brings me to the softness of silicone and the need to re-seal a pad.
Designer of - Vintage 1940 Cicero Mouthpieces and the La Vecchia mouthpieces
Yamaha Artist 2015
Post Edited (2012-04-09 02:37)
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Author: Wes
Date: 2012-04-09 08:19
Yes, I've worked on instruments with the recent glues and I'm going to stick to regular shellac for my needs. It heats in a predictable way so that I can count while heating to arrive at a desired stage and it has a viscosity that allows me to shift the pads easily as needed. For the same reasons, I never liked the old time French white shellac, found on some very old instruments.
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Author: tictactux ★2017
Date: 2012-04-09 12:45
> For the same reasons, I never liked the old time French white shellac, found
> on some very old instruments.
The Germans seem to be fond of that "window putty"; I am not sure whether it is shellac proper or some other substance.
--
Ben
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Author: paker
Date: 2012-04-10 05:03
I would like to try silicone glue to seat the bottom 2 x 17 mm pads RH side lower joint. Bad idea?
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