 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2012-03-20 04:39
If you use recordings for anything other than a mere suggestion of sound I strongly suggest you get your hat and coat and head immediately to your local concert hall for a serious listening.
.............Paul Aviles
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Author: oca
Date: 2012-03-20 04:44
That would be only true if you are implying that the clarinetist had poor recording equipment, then recorded sound would not be comparable to real life sound.
But who knows...
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Author: Buster
Date: 2012-03-20 05:46
Setting up another row of dominoes to knock down again are we?
Reminds why I stopped posting.....
I beg thee to excuse the irony of which has just been written
-Jason
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Author: David Spiegelthal ★2017
Date: 2012-03-20 10:25
Advanced players buy wood clarinets because manufacturers make their best clarinets out of wood because advanced players buy wood clarinets because manufacturers make their best clarinets out of wood because......
You get the idea.
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2012-03-20 11:17
Tradition.
Anything going against tradition is viewed with suspicion and grenadilla has passed the test of time as it's the traditional material of choice for clarinets (and oboes and piccolos).
The biggest problem in introducing new materials is the general buying public - anything too radical may single one player out from the crowd (and that applies with makes as well as materials). But in order for a new material to be successful, it must also be up to the job. While Greenline has gained support from players, it hasn't got the same degree of tensile strength as grenadilla and the middle tenon is the weakest area on them.
Has anyone ever dabbled with making carbon fibre bodied clarinets?
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: BobD
Date: 2012-03-20 11:38
My personal impression is that the metal clarinet was the result of Military requirements during or up to and through WWI. Why that could have been required I do not know. Maybe it was because the metal clarinet was perceived as being less prone to damage. After WWI the Military demand decreased and, so, clarinet makers reverted to other materials. Why this occurred I also do not know.
Maybe the metal clarinet had become associated with war. I do know that during my Grade School Band years 1939-'43 the Directors looked with disfavor on anyone playing a metal clarinet.
Bob Draznik
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Author: SteveG_CT
Date: 2012-03-20 13:53
Chris P wrote:
> Has anyone ever dabbled with making carbon fibre bodied
> clarinets?
>
Wouldn't be a good choice of materials in my opinion. Most composites (carbon fiber, fiber glass, etc.) are difficult to machine and getting them to accept mechanical fasteners (like key posts) would be quite difficult.
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Author: Campana
Date: 2012-03-20 15:06
Some things in life become "The real thing". Like real corks in wine bottles, a Harley Davidson, iPads, wood for clarinets. Alternatives have to be 20% better just to be considered almost as good.
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Author: dperreno
Date: 2012-03-20 15:41
Chris P wrote:
"Has anyone ever dabbled with making carbon fibre bodied clarinets?"
SteveG_CT wrote:
"Wouldn't be a good choice of materials in my opinion. Most composites (carbon fiber, fiber glass, etc.) are difficult to machine and getting them to accept mechanical fasteners (like key posts) would be quite difficult."
I agree that a full carbon fiber body would be problematic for that reason. Also, carbon fiber construction is usually done in thin layers, and I would imagine that a CF clarinet would want to look a lot like a metal clarinet (or a Soprano Sax). And it would be very light.
Having said that, CF is used in clarinets today. Buffet uses carbon fibers mixed with Grenadilla wood powder for their Greenline clarinets. Also, the tenon socket rings on their Elite were reinforced with polycarbonate fibers, and I think that tenon rings would be a perfect application for carbon fiber. Carbon fiber is also used for repairs, where a groove is cut around the circumference of the joint or tenon and the fibers are wound inside the groove, which is then filled in with the dust mixed with a binder.
Doug
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Author: SteveG_CT
Date: 2012-03-20 16:08
dperreno wrote:
>I think that tenon rings would be a perfect application for carbon
> fiber.
>
Schwenk & Seggelke already does this on some of their clarinets.
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Author: oca
Date: 2012-03-21 06:12
Note that you have to drill through carbon fiber to make a pipe instrument, and that might be what is holding somebody from doing just that: carbon fiber is extremely hard
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Author: SteveG_CT
Date: 2012-03-21 13:49
oca wrote:
> Note that you have to drill through carbon fiber to make a pipe
> instrument, and that might be what is holding somebody from
> doing just that: carbon fiber is extremely hard
Actually compared to most metals carbon fiber is quite soft. The amount of bogus information about carbon fiber that has become "common knowledge" is staggering. The individual carbon fibers have a high tensile strength but tensile strength should not be confused with hardness. It can be easily cut with very basic tooling and nothing exotic is required. A 2mm diameter carbon fiber tow can be easily cut with an ordinary pair of scissors but the same could not be said for a 2mm wire made from just about any metal.
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2012-03-21 14:14
And with carbon fibre, the type of resin used is also important. The joints don't necessarily have to be wafer thin - they can be made to the same diameters as wooden joints and machined like them, but they may weigh a fair bit in comparison to wooden joints of the same dimensions due to the density of the resin used.
The bore may have to be formed on a mandrel to make it the correct dimensions and to achieve a perfect mirror finish, but the outside can be machined to the correct shape and polished to show off the carbon fibre weave pattern. Then the toneholes and pillar holes can be cut into it - pillar holes may need to be bushed if the threads don't cut so well.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: SteveG_CT
Date: 2012-03-21 15:01
Chris P wrote:
> The bore may have to be formed on a mandrel to make it the
> correct dimensions and to achieve a perfect mirror finish
True, but the mandrel would need to have a draft (slight taper) on it else it would be nearly impossible to remove even if mold release was applied liberally beforehand. This could be cleaned up with a reamer afterwards but that could potentially create issues.
One of the main problems with composites is that once you cut into them and break the fibers you exponentially increase the risk of delamination at the site of the cut. This can often be mitigated to some degree by installing an insert at the site of the hole to add support (such as would be done if you needed a threaded hole) but this is not practical for every application.
I suppose you could make a "sacrificial mandrel" for forming the body of the instrument. This would eliminate the need for a taper. Several years ago I made some patterns out of corn starch and wrapped them in fiberglass. Once the fiberglass had cured the part was left to soak in water which disolved the starch patern and resulted in a hollow part with the correct internal dimensions. It's do-able but I doubt it would be practical for a mass production application.
Post Edited (2012-03-21 15:01)
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2012-03-21 15:49
As the bore on clarinets is tapered anyway, that shouldn't be too much of a problem.
The sides of the toneholes can always be sealed with resin after drilling (probably best being drilled slightly oversize), then recut to the final diameter once the resin has cured. Superglue can always be used in this instance provided it adheres to the resin - as well as when recutting the bedplaces to make them perfect as is done on wooden bodies (when that attention to detail is actually done which so many manufacturers don't even bother with).
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
Post Edited (2012-03-21 15:53)
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Author: Joe Bloke
Date: 2012-03-21 22:28
I like the wine analogy. Using cork to seal the bottle doesn't make the wine any better but, the market thinks it does. One thing the cork bottling process does do is, drive the price up.
Considering all of the manufacturers are struggling against Buffet's market saturation, I gotta wonder why some company like, say, Leblanc doesn't go for it and produce the best metal clarinet ever. They sound great and they're much more versatile (inside/outside/etc.). My recollection is, Buffet has something like 75% of the market so, what's to lose for the remaining "big three" who are fighting over the 25%?
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Author: SteveG_CT
Date: 2012-03-21 22:54
Joe Bloke wrote:
> My recollection is, Buffet
> has something like 75% of the market so, what's to lose for the
> remaining "big three" who are fighting over the 25%?
The cost of developing tooling and production equipment for a product that would stand a high risk of not selling well?
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Author: Garth Libre
Date: 2012-03-21 23:55
The main issue here is that the Metal Clarinet website states that pitch problems vary as much a 3mm barrel pull when the metal instrument is warm or cold. The thing he said about his Selmer 10G and his Buffet R13 was also interesting. To paraphrase it .." the Selmer has a beautiful tone but the Buffet has better intonation." This is good place for the discussion to lead. Is it true that the Selmer has a richer tone and the Buffet a more precise intonation? Is that what others have found?
Garth, 305-981-4705. garthlibre@yahoo.com
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Author: Joe Bloke
Date: 2012-03-22 00:19
@ SteveG
Your point is a good one and, it would take a risk taker to throw the dice (and a company that's already producing metal horns, e.g., saxs).
However, if you're the CEO of Leblanc, Yamaha and Selmer-Paris; to try and gain market share, you need to push for a game changer. Standing still and sticking to the plastic or wood theme is essentially giving up the larger market to Buffet. Buffet is going to win that battle almost every time.
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Author: SteveG_CT
Date: 2012-03-22 00:26
Garth Libre wrote:
> Is it true that the Selmer has a richer
> tone and the Buffet a more precise intonation? Is that what
> others have found?
>
Highly subjective. I don't think you can rally make a blanket statement about either. In the end the player and the mouthpiece have a greater influence on the tone and intonation that the model of the instrument especially when you are comparing instruments of very similar designs like the 10G and R13. (the 10G was supposedly a copy of Anthony Gigliotti's R13 that had been customized by Hans Moennig)
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Author: SteveG_CT
Date: 2012-03-22 00:30
Garth Libre wrote:
> The main issue here is that the Metal Clarinet website states
> that pitch problems vary as much a 3mm barrel pull when the
> metal instrument is warm or cold.
Why exactly do you think this is an issue? As long as the instrument has good intonation after warming up and pulling the barrel I don't care if I have to pull it 1mm or 10mm. FWIW I have a number of fine metal clarinets and don't have tuning stability issues with any of them.
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Author: SteveG_CT
Date: 2012-03-22 00:42
Joe Bloke wrote:
> However, if you're the CEO of Leblanc, Yamaha and Selmer-Paris;
> to try and gain market share, you need to push for a game
> changer. Standing still and sticking to the plastic or wood
> theme is essentially giving up the larger market to Buffet.
> Buffet is going to win that battle almost every time.
Who says that Leblanc, Selmer, and Yamaha are standing still? Not offering a clarinet in some outlandish material doesn't mean they aren't coming out with new designs. All of them have released several new clarinet models over the past several years.
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Author: oca
Date: 2012-03-22 06:31
I completely agree with you Steve.
Marketing has really messed up me up. What would be Buffet's reason for the Greenline? Sure it increases stability of the clarinet as there is less wood, but why use a material that excels in tensile strength instead of something more fitting for the situation?
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Author: SteveG_CT
Date: 2012-03-22 13:28
oca wrote:
> What would be Buffet's
> reason for the Greenline? Sure it increases stability of the
> clarinet as there is less wood, but why use a material that
> excels in tensile strength instead of something more fitting
> for the situation?
The main reason for the Greenline is to reuse material that would otherwise be discarded as scrap. The primary component of the Greenline material is the wood dust and chips generated from machining the normal wood clarinets. Makes sense to use it rather than throw it away.
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Author: Joe Bloke
Date: 2012-03-22 13:28
Dave Kessler has an some interesting things to say about "instrument material & tonal performance" on his blog:
http://www.kesslermusic.com/blog/?p=357
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Author: BobD
Date: 2012-03-23 12:48
My personal feeling is that epoxy is the wrong matrix to have selected to use for the Greenline and that the marketing line about saving the wood "dust" is just that...a marketing line. I would welcome an engineering explanation for the choice of materials.
Bob Draznik
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Author: MarlboroughMan
Date: 2012-03-23 12:55
Awhile back there was a thread about Selmer Reference horns--the question was whether there would be a market for a "Reference 54 CT", etc. I'd add the silver clarinet to a list of things I'd like to see.
Selmer Reference 54 (CT)
Selmer Reference 38 (K Series)
Selmer Reference Silver.
What an incredible line that would be.
If Selmer could make a Silver clarinet as high quality as their old silvers, but with the intonation qualities they get now....I'd look into them.
Eric
******************************
The Jazz Clarinet
http://thejazzclarinet.blogspot.com/
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Author: BobD
Date: 2012-03-23 13:06
"http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5DdyUGUlv3s"
Check the above YouTube presentation about Carleen Hutchins as a suggested response to the question that started this exchange.
Bob Draznik
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Author: MarlboroughMan
Date: 2012-03-24 23:13
"Which one would you buy?"
Not sure--the Reference series of saxophones have surprised many players (those who went in thinking they wanted a Reference 36 have come out with a 54, and vice versa). I'd be very interested in each model. I've always loved the old K Series sound that Benny and Artie got, and the CT legacy speaks for itself.
Having said that, I've always thought story of Gaston Hamelin playing silver Selmers in the BSO was great, and if a top level metal clarinet sounded and responded as well as a CT, K Series, or 1010, with good intonation, I think it would be the smartest buy out there--for weather conditions, durability, etc.
I haven't played many metal clarinets, but the ones I have were very cheap and not top of the line. Still, their altissimo registers were amazing. That's enough to get me very curious about better models.
Eric
******************************
The Jazz Clarinet
http://thejazzclarinet.blogspot.com/
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Author: SteveG_CT
Date: 2012-03-25 00:58
MarlboroughMan wrote:
> I haven't played many metal clarinets, but the ones I have were
> very cheap and not top of the line. Still, their altissimo
> registers were amazing. That's enough to get me very curious
> about better models.
>
You should try a P-M ClariMet if you ever get the chance. Mine sounds great, has good intonation, and looks as good as when it was new. I doubt there are many century old wood clarinets that could be said about.
When I look at it though I can tell why they stopped making them as it must have taken a tremendous amount of time to assemble. In light of that it isn't surprising that they sold for ~$200 in 1910.
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Author: Buster
Date: 2012-03-25 07:49
I try to stay out of these material discussions, but, (please excuse the irony):
I played a double-walled Haynes Bb (from the 20 or 30's I think) that was a fantastically sounding horn; the pitch was a but suspect. I suppose that the tone-holes could be under-cut to help, or silver solder be added to the tone-holes to reshape them. (Good luck with that as silver-solder runs like water at heat.) Bore modifications may prove a bit more complicated. Truth be told, as I have neither the instrument, the shop space, nor the skill to do such modifications I guess we will simply have to surmise.
I also played a Frank L. Kaspar silver-plated nickle/silver body clarinet mouthpiece (classical style bore/baffle and facing) that was incredible. Though I felt like the clarinet was so top heavy I would fall out of my chair; or my lips would freeze to the mouthpiece a la "A Christmas Story."
Discuss amongst yourselves...........
-Jason
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