 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: mk
Date: 2012-03-01 01:10
I just got back from listening to a clarinet recital of a clarinetist who performs on Selmer clarinets. I did not know in advance he was playing Selmers and listnened attentively to over all musicality and expression . I was noticing the overall pleasant tone of the instrument and thonught how much his sound was similar to that of Dave Shifrin. However, as the recital progressed, I began to notice how the color of the instrument seemed lack the overtones that my ear was acustomed to hearing. It was like almost listening to one color of the instrument no matter what genre he was performing. To sum it up....it made me almost want to leave. He was musical. He was talented. He was accomplished. Bottom line, I feel it was the instrument holding him back. I know alot of Selmer lovers out there will be disagreeing. I have nothing to attest to other than what I heard.
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Author: Tony F
Date: 2012-03-01 03:02
I have several Selmers of various vintages, and can't say I've ever noticed this as a problem. I'd be more inclined to suspect the player or the mouthpiece, or possibly the acoustics of the venue.
Tony F.
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Author: SteveG_CT
Date: 2012-03-01 03:32
Seems a little harsh to condemn a whole family of clarinets based entirely on the fact that you didn't like one performance. If you found out his clarinet was a Buffet would you be writing the same thing?
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Author: JamesOrlandoGarcia
Date: 2012-03-01 03:50
What may have been disappointing to you may have been pleasing to others. No musician anywhere is going to please everyone. I think it is short sighted to attribute whatever you think was lacking to his equipment.
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Author: oca
Date: 2012-03-01 04:50
Yes, I agree with James. The clothes he was wearing may have had more effect on sound than than the instrument.
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Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2012-03-01 08:31
Musicality is the important factor here. ANY piece of equipment is only ancillary at best. You were bored by the performer.........with all due respect to whomever it was.
.................Paul Aviles
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Author: BobD
Date: 2012-03-01 11:08
You can't always believe what you hear........
Bob Draznik
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Author: Ed Palanker
Date: 2012-03-01 14:35
That's like saying that you heard someone play out of tune on a Buffet so you think it's the instrument's fault. Any good player will play with color on the instrument of choice. It's not the instrument, it's the player. Someone picks the instrument, mouthpiece and reed combination that they feel fits them the best. If they lack the ability to play musically, color their tone, play reasonably in tune etc. it's their weakness not the horn. ESP eddiesclarinet.com
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Author: Garth Libre
Date: 2012-03-01 16:39
Eddie Daniels if given a $500 plastic clarinet and his choice of mpc and reed would still find a way to sound like ... Eddie Daniels!
Garth, 305-981-4705. garthlibre@yahoo.com
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Author: Garth Libre
Date: 2012-03-02 02:49
It may be important, but it really is not the reason why the original poster condemned the Selmers on the basis of a single performance. The sound he could have been hearing could have been the hall acoustics, the reed, the mpc, his overexposure to loud sound that day (it takes a full day to recover from the effects of too much traffic noise, or loud tires on your car while driving hwy speeds, or mowing the lawn without ear protection) or even just that particular clarinet performer's personal sense of what constitutes the ideal sound. I have a recording of Benny Goodman performing several different modern orchestral pieces and his sound has much variety and richness of tonality, color. The Selmers may not be the easiest instruments to play, but I know that some musicians have played them with unparalleled grace and beauty. I'm anxious to get back my chops so I can start comparing my abilities and sound quality on a variety of instruments. From my recent postings one might gather that I'm looking strongly to resurrecting an old Selmer CT.
Garth, 305-981-4705. garthlibre@yahoo.com
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Author: oca
Date: 2012-03-02 04:52
Flaw in the instrument will result in flaw in the music being played, regardless of how talented a player is.
You see this in percussion, woodwind, and brass instruments.
The piano will sound horrible is it is out of tune, if the wood is of poor quality, if the pedals are broken, if the strings are of low quality, if the keys are of low quality.
A woodwind will sound horrible if its keyholes are not in the proper position or not the right size, if the body is made out of the wrong material, if the material is warped, if the pads are flimsy, if the keys are sticky, if the ligature is not effective, if the mouthpiece is not effective, if the reed is lousy, if there is a leak.
A brass instrument will sound horrible if the tubing is the wrong length, if the valves are sticky, if the mouthpiece is not effective, if there is rust in the pipe, if there are scratches within the mouthpiece, if it is made out of the wrong material.
On the other hand, if you give the same equipment to an amateur player and a professional player, the professional is likely to perform better.
Conclusion:
If skill of the player is constant, then performance will vary depending on the equipment.
If equipment is constant, then performance will vary depending on the skill of the player.
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Author: Garth Libre
Date: 2012-03-02 10:41
All the above is true about badly maintained, broken, warped or badly designed instruments making the sound awful. However in the case of a professional, talented musician playing a properly maintained instrument in nearly ideal conditions, the small differences in tonal quality the original poster heard could most likely be chalked up to individual taste, room acoustics or the temporary changes that we all experience in our hearing from living in too noisy an environment. Even without a recent audition of the pro line Selmer the performer was using, I'm wiling to say that Selmers can have just as rich and complex a tone as the current favorite Yamahas or Buffets or Leblancs. The differences between pro line instruments nowadays comes down to an issue of personal taste and small issues. From my understanding companies like Yamaha and Leblanc actually take computer measurements of other pro line horns that they like and then design their bore and hole configurations from the minute differences they believe can create in a new mix. The Japanese are known for their ability to copy what they like and then make small modifications to tweak things even more. When I think Yamaha, I always imagine a group of engineers handling old classics like Buffets and Selmers and deciding which qualities they wish to emphasize and then try to bring to market at a lower price point. Inside every new CSG, I bet beats the heart of an old Selmer or Buffet. In light of this, I find it hard to believe that all Selmers could be described as uni-dimensional. I've heard some performances on Selmers that I think are amazing and rival anything ever made.
Garth, 305-981-4705. garthlibre@yahoo.com
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Author: Ed Palanker
Date: 2012-03-02 16:49
No professional clarinetist that I know plays on an instrument that is not in good shape and as well in tune as possible. It's rediculious to blame poor musicianship on the make of the instrumet, any make. By the way, I play a Selmer Signature Bb and Bass and a Buffet A and Eb. Why, because I liked those insturments best of all. Just try to tell me that I play more musicially or with more tone color on my Buffet than I do on my Selmer and I'll tell you you don't know what you're talking about. ESP
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Author: mk
Date: 2012-03-03 02:38
Instrument quality affects performance. I think certain instrument makers through the course of time have proven their worth in terms of dollar value commanded on their instrument. Since clarinets have a short life span compared to say a violin, its hard to make this comparison especially knowing that clarinets are mass produced largely. We all look to find a diamond in the rough and customize it best to suit our needs. But the fact remains, the bore profile of a selmer produces a certain color and sound quality which i do not identify with. The listening population is largely incapable of making these distinctions so i guess in a way its all for not. I have no loyalty to any one clarinet manufacturer because i do not perform anymore. I have little respect for the clarinet manufacturing industry on the whole.
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Author: Ed Palanker
Date: 2012-03-03 03:27
David, I've owned my Selmer Signature for almost four years now, never had a crack and my Selmer bass for 45 years, never had a crack. Some of my collegues have Chadash clarinets, both have had several cracks. I'm just saying. :-) ESP
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Author: mk
Date: 2012-03-03 13:22
For th selemer lovers out there, I will try to post a picture of a set of full bohem selmers never played but great museum pieces. These horns in my opinion are mechanically subperb. I have never played them and if anyone knows of a clarinet museum, I would be happy to donate them. If anyone owns one of these, chime in and let me know.
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Author: SteveG_CT
Date: 2012-03-03 15:51
DavidBlumberg wrote:
> A student of mine's Signature cracked (surface cracks) in 3
> spots during Regional Band last week. Took 9 pins.
>
Cracks are hardly a problem that is exclusive to Selmers. We just had a thread here where the poster's Buffet Tosca cracked and then repeatedly cracked again after being repaired. http://test.woodwind.org/clarinet/BBoard/read.html?f=1&i=365196&t=365196 Personally I doubt that one brand of wood clarinets is any more likely to crack than another.
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Author: Garth Libre
Date: 2012-03-03 19:02
The fact that any brand of clarinet can crack under the right conditions or even because for some unknown reason, it one good reason to buy a classic used clarinet. I've often heard it said that if an instrument hasn't cracked in forty years, it's not likely that it ever will. Maybe older instruments should be sold at a premium instead of a discount for this very reason.
Garth, 305-981-4705. garthlibre@yahoo.com
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Author: SteveG_CT
Date: 2012-03-03 19:23
Garth Libre wrote:
> The fact that any brand of clarinet can crack under the right
> conditions or even because for some unknown reason, it one good
> reason to buy a classic used clarinet. I've often heard it said
> that if an instrument hasn't cracked in forty years, it's not
> likely that it ever will. Maybe older instruments should be
> sold at a premium instead of a discount for this very reason.
>
I've heard that too but I know for a fact it isn't true. I've had old clarinets crack on me more than once. With regards to crack resistance the only thing the older instruments have going for them is that they were often made out of tighter grained wood than what is typically used today.
There are plenty of reasons to buy an older professional clarinet but a perceived immunity to cracking isn't one of them.
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2012-03-03 19:59
mk - "For th selemer lovers out there, I will try to post a picture of a set of full bohem selmers never played but great museum pieces. These horns in my opinion are mechanically subperb. I have never played them and if anyone knows of a clarinet museum, I would be happy to donate them. If anyone owns one of these, chime in and let me know."
I'll gladly add them to my collection of older Selmers seeing as you're offering!
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: mk
Date: 2012-03-03 20:57
Ok so here we are blaming selmers for cracks which is the silliest thing I have ever heard. Wood is wood. It hates moisture, drastic temperature change, impact or too much stress. It does not care whose name is stamped on it. If it is subjected to the extremes of any of a list of variables, it might crack. So I can safely say any clarinet will crack under the wrong conditons. I would suggest people who have interests in the the characteristics of wood start reading articles on fine wood working. These people have a great understanding of wood and do use african blackwood for projects. Remember that the bowl makers use sealants or oils that can be subjected to ingestion so these are good articles to read. This is not a topic unique to instrumentalists. Cracking of wood is a big problem for woodworkers as well. Safeguards against cracking have been discussed in other threads so I will not bore anyone. I do hope clarinetists take the time to google some of these discussions by woodworkers. They are the experts on this topic and can provide basic understanding of wood and its characteristics. Good luck.
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Author: DavidBlumberg
Date: 2012-03-03 21:03
It has a lot to do with how well the wood is seasoned.
Should we believe that all manufacturers season it exactly the same? And also that it is kept in the same environment, and treated identically?
Could be, I don't know.
Personally, I get surprised every time I hear of a Clarinet Crack. I've never had one myself, but sure do know those who have!
http://www.SkypeClarinetLessons.com
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Author: Bob Bernardo
Date: 2012-03-03 22:39
One thing about Selmers is the key work. I was very tempted to buy the signature. I'm not sure if it's the tension or the firmness of the keys, but they feel great and for me I have to say it feels better then the Buffets. I'm sure others will agree and perhaps disagree.
You should spend some time playing with assorted mouthpieces to get that controlled center. I had a Selmer 9 series and used some sort of no name MP with a facing of 1.06. I think, but that was 30 years ago!
Designer of - Vintage 1940 Cicero Mouthpieces and the La Vecchia mouthpieces
Yamaha Artist 2015
Post Edited (2012-03-03 23:01)
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