 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: LMullan
Date: 2012-02-28 18:33
I have been reading a lot of information here over the last week or so in hopes of finding some information about a clarinet we recently purchased for my daughter. The clarinet is stamped: "Evette-Schaeffer, Paris France, Modele Buffet Crampon."
It has a serial number of 2679. It does not say it is a Master Model. From what I have been reading, the serial number should be preceded by a letter, but this one is not. Both of the clarinet pieces with the fingering holes reflect the same serial number (I checked in hopes that maybe it had worn off.)
Can anyone help me with identifying the year and share any other knowledge you may have about this particular model? We are giving it my daughter for her birthday and would like to be able to tell her a little information about its history.
Thank you in advance for any help and advice you can offer.
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Author: SteveG_CT
Date: 2012-02-28 19:14
Here's a good place to start: http://www.clarinetperfection.com/clsnBuffetES.htm
There is a reference to Evette-Schaeffer models with serial numbers containing no letters but little other information about them. I'd suggest comparing it to the pictures on that site to determine if it is most similar to the Buffet, Schreiber, or Malerne made versions.
Regardless you most likely have an intermediate level instrument that would have been roughly equivalent to the Buffet E-11 sold today.
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Author: rtmyth
Date: 2012-02-29 13:12
Very similar to a R13, according to Lee Gibson, in an article in The Clarinet, some 20 years ago.
richard smith
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Author: LMullan
Date: 2012-03-09 16:12
Thank you, Steve and Richard for your posts. I am happy to hear that it is at least an intermediate level clarinet, but would certainly welcome anything close to an R13! 
I have contacted a local music company that repairs/restores/refurbishes old instruments. They have said they will be able to tell me more once they look at the instrument in person. I will be taking it to them tomorrow. I am excited!
Thank you, again, for sharing your knowledge. I appreciate your help!
P.S. Mr. Smith, I would love to read the article you mentioned if anyone would have a link to an archive.
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Author: Jack Kissinger
Date: 2012-03-10 04:48
I don't like to be a wet blanket but I think I have to give a somewhat different assessment of your clarinet than Steve or Richard. I think it's closer to the truth to say no one can tell you what you have without seeing at least pictures of your clarinet because there is really almost no information available regarding E&S clarinets with no prefix to their serial numbers.
First, regarding Steve's comments, I think it's very unlikely any E&S clarinets were ever made in the Schreiber plant in Germany. Buffet has always maintained that all E&S (and E13) clarinets have been made in France. Even those made in the Malerne factory would have been made in France. Second, the earliest any Buffet clarinets were made in the Schreiber plant is around 1978. By that time, all E&S clarinets had been made in the main Buffet factory in Paris for many years (the serial numbers had passed K40000).
While I can't be certain without seeing pictures, I think it most likely that either your clarinet was made prior to the beginning of the K-series (which would make it no later than the early 1930s) or its prefix was inadvertently omitted when the serial number was stamped. In the latter case, it would either be a clarinet from the Malerne factory (which would probably indicate it was made prior to the 1950s) or an older K-series clarinet from the Buffet factory in Paris. If your clarinet falls into any of these categories, IMO, it is not really equivalent to an E11. It is of a far older design. It may turn out to be a good clarinet, but if I were you I would be alert to any complaints your daughter may have about it seeming hard to blow or stuffy feeling/sounding.
I also doubt that Lee Gibson's comments have any bearing here. Assuming Richard's date for the Gibson article is in the ballpark, by the time he wrote it, he almost certainly would have been comparing a much more modern, redesigned E&S model with the R13.
But this is all speculation. If you can post some pictures of the clarinet, perhaps someone will be able to give you a more accurate assessment of what you have.
Best regards,
jnk
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Author: annev
Date: 2012-03-10 15:09
My clarinet teacher has an Evette and Schaeffer clarinet with a four digit serial number that isn't preceded by a letter. I remember seeing another clarinet with a similar serial number for sale in a second hand shop, so these clarinets do exist and aren't just an issue with the letter in the serial number having been worn off. I don't know very much about my teacher's clarinet, but I remember noticing that the throat A and G# keys share a post, so it is probably an older model. He bought is as a spare but never got around to putting it in playing condition. I hope that helps!
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Author: Jack Kissinger
Date: 2012-03-10 16:34
annev,
If your teacher still has this clarinet, could you find out if there is an adjusting screw on the G# throat key? Also, could you see if the arm on the top ring of the lower joint angles upward slightly or if it is perpendicular to the tube that connects the ring? Finally, could you get an exact description of the logo on the upper joint? That could all be helpful information.
Best regards,
jnk
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Author: annev
Date: 2012-03-11 21:21
Jack,
My teacher is out west for the week. I'm quite sure he still has the clarinet and I can ask him your questions when he is back. I can't remember if the arm on the top ring of the lower joint angles upward or not, but I remember thinking that their were a number of things about the clarinet that made me think it might be made by Malerne. Anyway, I can let you know next week if you are still interested.
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Author: LMullan
Date: 2012-03-12 16:42
Thank you, Mr. Kissinger, for replying to my thread. I took the instrument to the shop on Saturday and he said he would like to do some research on it as well.
I do have some pictures of the clarinet since I wanted to do a "before" and "after" of the clarinet. Even in its unconditioned state, I think it's beautiful in its own way. I am aware that the mouthpiece in the photos is not the original one, but a Bundy, I believe. The case is also not original.
You can see the pictures of the clarinet here: http://www.flickr.com/photos/lmullan1
I look forward to learning more.
Thank you for your time.
LM
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Author: LMullan
Date: 2012-03-12 16:45
Attachment: Pic4.jpg (84k)
Attachment: Pic5.jpg (92k)
Thank you, Mr. Kissinger, for replying to my thread. I took the instrument to the shop on Saturday and he said he would like to do some research on it as well.
I do have some pictures of the clarinet since I wanted to do a "before" and "after" of the clarinet. Even in its unconditioned state, I think it's beautiful in its own way. I am aware that the mouthpiece in the photos is not the original one, but a Bundy, I believe. The case is also not original.
I look forward to learning more.
Thank you for your time.
LM
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Author: SteveG_CT
Date: 2012-03-12 17:40
Based on these pictures I think Jack is probably right in his assumption that you have a very early French-made instrument. The lack of an adjusting screw on the throat G# key suggests this instrument was made during the 1930's or earlier. There is a photo of an early Malerne-made E&S with no G# adjusting screw on Steve Sklars's site. The keywork on it is a little different than what is shown in the pictures you posted so my guess is that you have an early Buffet-made instrument.
As I said before, when new this instrument would have filled the same market segment that the E-11 does today. (This should not be interpreted to mean that it will play as well as a modern E-11.)
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Author: Jack Kissinger
Date: 2012-03-12 20:49
Hi Lorie,
I've looked at your pictures on Flickr and the photos on Steve Sklar's site. I'm not sure what differences Steve (G) is seeing. The clarinets look virtually identical to me. In any case, I happen to own an E&S that dates from the 1930s. Its serial number has an A prefix but, otherwise, it looks absolutely identical to yours. (More on this below.) Since you are not a clarinet player, the technicalities may not be clear to you but, if you print out our comments and take them to your repair tech, perhaps he can point out to you what we are talking about.
Steve notes the lack of an adjusting screw on the throat G# key. This was the primary characteristic I was looking for when I asked for photos. As he says, this characteristic indicates your clarinet was likely made in the 1930s or earlier. From here on, things get stickier. For a long time period, beginning in the 1930s or earlier and extending to the 1960s, Buffet marketed essentially three models of clarinet, the Evette (a student model), the (confusingly named) Evette and Schaeffer (an intermediate model) and the Buffet (professional model). Carl Fischer was Buffet's importer in the U.S. and, in their catalogs, they initially (AFAIK) designated the basic models as the E10, E13 and R13, respectively.
Vytas Krass, a repair technician, with support from another clarinetist and sometimes reconditioner and reseller, Susie Ray, was the first to suggest that some E&S clarinets were not made by Buffet but rather were made by Malerne, a large Paris woodwind manufacturer. He based his conclusion on two pieces of evidence: (1) a comparison of a somewhat later E&S (B-series) clarinet with a somewhat later Malerne clarinet that showed the two to be apparently identical in every small detail and (2) the existence of two different sequences of E&S clarinet running apparently simultaneously, one with a K prefix to the serial number and one with serial numbers with prefixes of A, B, and C (and, in your case, no prefix). He posted photos to back up the claim. His evidence is compelling. The A, B and C models all display Malerne design characteristics. And Malerne is well-known to have (ghost) manufactured clarinets for other instruments companies (Conn, Olds and Linton, to name a few). The K models, on the other hand are all quite different from Malernes. This has led Vytas to conclude that the K-series clarinets were made by Buffet in its main factory while the others were made by Malerne, then labeled as Buffets.
In all the literature that exists (or, in any case, all that I have seen), Buffet has always descried the E&S as having been made in their main factory in Paris. On the other hand, Evettes, according to Buffet, were made in a separate factory under the supervision of Buffet technicians. That the early Evettes (until around 1960) carried a label that read "Sponsored by Buffet" below the Evette logo, and that at least some of these instruments had Malerne characteristics, has led some to conclude they were either made by Malerne or, at least, in the Malerne factory. But, again, Buffet has always maintained that the E&S models were made in the main factory by the same craftsmen who made the professional model. This has led Vytas to conclude that the K-series were indeed made by Buffet but the others were made by Malerne. He has even suggested that perhaps Buffet's importer had the Malerne models made without Buffet's knowledge to help fill demand in the U.S. I guess that's possible but how Fischer could have gotten away with this for perhaps 30 years without someone at Buffet finding out is hard for me to fathom. Did Malerne make the spurious clarinets? Did they make the parts which Buffet then assembled? IMO, it has to remain speculartion but it is clear that the A, B and C (and no-) series E&S clarinets are quite different in design from the K-series models and strikingly similar to Malerne clarinets.
Which, finally, brings me back to your clarinet. I think that what you have is a very old E&S, probably made by Malerne. The lack of the adjusting screw, which, from what I've seen became prevalent in the 1940's, helps date it. Prominent characteristics that suggest it was made by Malerne (and your tech should be able to point these out for you) include: (1) the curved shape of the trill key guide (older Buffets are triangular in shape), the slight upward angle on the arm to the [edit: pad cup above the] top ring on the bottom joint (Buffets are straight), the rather wide rings, and the shapes of the upper and lower parts of the bridge connection.
I bought my A-series E&S before I learned what I have found out over the years about these older Buffets. It was among several Evette and E&S clarinets that I picked up inexpensively on e-Bay to learn about, recondition and resell. Once I had reconditioned it and played it (it was terribly stuffy and resistant) and learned more about its age and pedigree (even before I learned it was likely a Malerne), my conscience wouldn't let me sell it. It sits in a closet. FWIW, my first wooden clarinet was a new "Professional" Malerne, purchased for me by my parents in the late 1950s. It served me well for 12 years. IMO, if fully overhauled, it would still be an adequate student instrument but I know where it's been and how it's been cared for over the years. It was my daughter's first clarinet but, as soon as she showed some talent and interest, I replaced it with an early E11 that I had reconditioned. In the 1930s (or before), when your clarinet was made, it would have been considered an intermediate model (actually a step above the Evette, which eventually evolved into the modern E11). But the modern instruments bear little resemblance to their ancestors. The 80 or so years that have intervened since your clarinet was made have seen significant advances in design and have provided many opportunities for your clarinet's condition to degrade. One thing I think it does have going for it is that it was probably made from good wood to have survived this long. To be honest, though, I don't think you have a very good clarinet and I'm not sure giving it to your daughter will be doing her a favor. But that's just my opinion based on one clarinet that I own and several comments I have read over the years by other owners. I hope I prove to be wrong. But again I would recommend that you be very sensitive if she begins to complain about it being difficult or uncomfortable to play.
Best regards,
jnk
Post Edited (2012-03-13 02:26)
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Author: SteveG_CT
Date: 2012-03-12 21:04
Jack Kissinger wrote:
> Hi Lorie,
>
> I've looked at your pictures on Flickr and the photos on Steve
> Sklar's site. I'm not sure what differences Steve (G) is
> seeing. The clarinets look virtually identical to me.
Take a look at the pad cup for the lower joint ring keys on both instruments. The Malerne version on Steve Sklar's site has the pad cup slightly offset while on Lorie's clarinet it is not offset. Based on this I suspect they were not made by the same company or at least were not the same design.
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Author: stevesklar
Date: 2012-03-13 19:51
A couple quick items
The thumbrest is a 2 screw but one top and one bottom not the "common" buffet one. This indicating it is an older design if it is Buffet.
Then when did Buffet start using a slotted barrel trill key guide .. and was in in the same era as the thumbrest design?
Just those two items makes me think that it is not a Buffet.
Plus the slotted barrel is of a thin type, not similar to the "fatter" Buffets but similar to Malerne and Shreiber.
then add the shared post (which did shortly coexist with a fatter buffet slotted barrel trill guide - but not this one) but not with the much older thumbrest design.
add to it, I think Buffet used a single post for the LJ LH B/C# spatula keys in their early design which does coexist with the single top/bottom thumbrest design. This one has two posts which doesn't mix with the thumbrest design too.
All a mess .. but I don't think that's a Buffet made clarinet.
==========
Stephen Sklar
My YouTube Channel of Clarinet Information
Post Edited (2012-03-13 19:53)
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Author: Jack Kissinger
Date: 2012-03-14 06:24
I actually did look at that cup but, in describing the slight upward curve or angle I observed in its arm, I incorrectly referred to the top ring instead of the pad cup above that ring. When I look at Lorie's clarinet, I see an offset. It appears slightly less pronounced than the one on Steve's website but, to my eyes, it's there -- the difference probably a matter of camera angle. (I must admit that, in the first picture Lorie linked directly, there does not appear to be an offset. However, I think the offset is apparent in the three pictures Lorie uploaded to Flickr but didn't link here.)
In any case, Buffet-made clarinets of that period also appear to have had an offset. Pictures of the K1xx E&S which Vytas sold several years ago clearly show that his clarinet, presumably made by Buffet, had the same offset in the lower joint ring pad cup that we see in the picture on Steve Sklar's website (and I see in my A-series E&S and in Lorie's instrument).
I did a little research looking at pictures of some old Buffet clarinets on eBay and some pictures I have from Vytas. Here are some facts I observed:
1. A professional Buffet from 1924 has no adjusting screw on the G# throat key and only one post and rod for the E/B and F#/G# left-hand spatulas on the lower joint. It has a triangular trill key guide.
2. Vytas' early K-series E&S has no adjusting screw on the G# throat key and only one post and rod for the E/B and F#/G# left-hand spatulas on the lower joint. It has a triangular trill key guide.
3. A professional Buffet from 1936 has no adjusting screw on the G# throat key but two posts and rods for the E/B and F#/G# left-hand spatulas on the lower joint. It has a triangular trill key guide.
4. Lorie's clarinet has no adjusting screw on the G# throat key but two posts and rods for the E/B and F#/G# left-hand spatulas on the lower joint. It has a round trill key guide similar, if not identical to the trill key guide on my late 1950s Malerne. The picture on Steve Sklar's website and my A-Series E&S show the same features as Lorie's clarinet.
From this I conclude that Vytas' E&S is an earlier model (probably from the 1920s) than Lorie's (Steve's picture, or mine, all probably from the 1930s).
Other evidence:
1. Vytas observed that a picture of an E&S Master Model with a D prefix appeared identical to a Malerne clarinet he had overhauled. He sent me a picture of the E&S and I compared it with a Malerne I'd owned for over 50 years. I had to agree.
2. Incomplete observations: It appears that Malerne's characteristic trill key guide is a cylinder with a rounded top. Buffet's characteristic trill key guide was a triangle. While photos of Buffet clarinets over a long period of time are prevalent, pictures of clarinets labeled Malerne dating back to the company's early years are difficult to find.
Conclusions:
Vytas believes that Buffet started the K-series E&S in the 1930s and continued it unbroken up to modern times. He believes that the only E&S clarinets made by Buffet are those with a K-prefix. Other E&S clarinets were stenciled by Malerne with or without Buffet's knowledge. If this is true, there are times when both Buffet and Malerne were making E&S clarinets simultaneously. A problem for this theory then is the apparent disappearance of K-series E&S clarinets from around the time Vytas' clarinet was made until the 1950s when the K-series re-emerges. (A K-series clarinet iwth no adjusting screw and two posts would be very useful to find, if it exists.)
Just for kicks, here is an alternative theory: Buffet started the E&S model in the 1920s, adopting a K prefix for the serial number. In the 1930s, they changed the design and, at the same time dropped the K prefix, later adding an A prefix. In the 1940s, after another design change, they adopted a B prefix. Problems with this theory are: the strange D-series anomaly that clearly looks more like a Malerne than a Buffet, the fact that non-K series Buffets have the round trill guide and some other Malerne-like design issues.
The truth is probably completely different and we'll probably never know it. In the meantime, to my eyes, whether they were made by Malerne or Buffet, Lorie's clarinet is essentially identical to the one pictured on Steve Sklar's website and my A-series E&S -- and, unfortunately, probably not a great horn by modern standards.
Best regards,
jnk
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Author: stevesklar
Date: 2012-03-15 14:09
This is odd.
While doing some research on Martin US clarinets I came across pictures of Martin Freres clarinets.
Serial number on that auction site is 3261
the top pad cup of the lower joint rings keys has a very slight upturn to it.
I will researching more on Malernes/Buffet link - I have a ton of pictures to put on the website and I guess I'll look at Martin Freres too since it has a up swept pad cup arm.
==========
Stephen Sklar
My YouTube Channel of Clarinet Information
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Author: LMullan
Date: 2012-03-15 15:26
Thank you, gentlemen. I really enjoy reading your posts and appreciate you sharing your knowledge. It is quite fascinating and a great learning opportunity.
It's a bit disappointing that the clarinet is most likely not suitable for my daughter as an intermediate horn. Does anyone have an opinion as to what I should do with it? The pictures may not show it very well, but the wood on this clarinet is truly beautiful.
Would it be worth giving to my daughter as a piece of clarinet history with a shady past (humor intended) that perhaps may one day be of some significance? Even though I'm inclined to agree with Mr. Kissinger that we may never know, a good mystery is always exciting. Or should I seek to recoup my investment and sell it to purchase one more suitable for her?
But, that leaves me in another dilemmma -- what would be best to get my daughter at this stage? I began looking at Buffets after she fell in love with a Master Model her band director owns and allows her to use. She is doing very well with her clarinet playing and has been playing for 2 1/2 years. Her band director currently has her playing Level 6 music. He has commented that in another 1-2 years, we will need to seek professional-level instruction for her to increase in skill because she will be beyond his scope. She eventually wants to become a music and math teacher -- music being her first love. Thoughts?
Again, thank you all so much for taking the time to respond and share. It is truly appreciated more than you know and much more than I can convey.
Best,
Lorie
P.S. If anyone would be interested in more detailed photos of the clarinet, I would be happy to provide them upon its return to me. When I posted the pictures here, I assume the 3 additional ones I posted on Flikr were dropped here because of their size. In addition, please feel free to use/copy/share the existing photos I have posted both here and on Flikr.
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Author: SteveG_CT
Date: 2012-03-15 16:40
Unfortunately your current E&S is really only going to be of interest to a collector. You would be better off getting a more modern instrument for your daughter to play.
We can give you some recommendations if you can give some indication of what your budget is. If possible you should really try to get your daughter's teacher or another experienced player to help you pick out an instrument. Clarinets tend to be variable in quality even among instruments from the same make and model so it is important to play test an instrument before purchasing it or at the very least make sure you have the option to return it. The last thing you want is to purchase a clarinet (new or used) that has questionable intonation as it will just become frustrating for your daughter.
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Author: LMullan
Date: 2012-03-15 19:15
I'm ok with a limited audience for the horn. I don't have much invested into it. But, if anyone thinks it's worth keeping -- even if just as a collector's item and not for playing -- I'm willing to give it to her for that purpose alone. It would be something very old, historical, and surrounded by uncertainty. The only reference for a sale point I would have would be what I paid for it anyway. At this point, it's probably one of those items that's really only worth what a buyer is willing to pay for it! (haha!)
As for a budget for an upgrade ... Well, Steve, I think that's part of the problem. I'm not sure what I should be spending. When her band director and I first started talking about getting her an upgraded clarinet, he said we should be able to do it for about $300-$400. Is that fair?
We would like to get her something useful in the intermediate range, but also something nice and worth having. Her teacher is a Buffet fan.
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Author: SteveG_CT
Date: 2012-03-16 00:08
LMullan wrote:
> As for a budget for an upgrade ... Well, Steve, I think that's
> part of the problem. I'm not sure what I should be spending.
> When her band director and I first started talking about
> getting her an upgraded clarinet, he said we should be able to
> do it for about $300-$400. Is that fair?
>
> We would like to get her something useful in the intermediate
> range, but also something nice and worth having. Her teacher
> is a Buffet fan.
You can get a decent used clarinet for $300-$400 but it probably won't be a Buffet as they tend to command higher prices. You can find many used intermediate level clarinets in that price range and even some used professional one. Some intermediate clarinets to consider would be a Selmer Signet (any model), a Noblet (any model), Normandy (any model), Boosey & Hawkes (Edgware, 2-20, or emperor), or Yamaha (YCL-34). A Buffet E11 or later K-series Evette & Schaeffer would also be acceptable but I think you will have a hard time finding them in good condition in that price range due to the "Buffet Halo Effect".
You may also find some used Leblanc professional models (LL, L27, L300, etc.) in this price range as they tend to be undervalued.
Again, don't buy a used clarinet unless you can play test it before purchase or if you will be allowed to return it after buying if you don't like it.
My personal advice would be to call up a repair technician and see if they have any instruments for sale in your price range. If you buy from a tech you will be guaranteed to get an instrument in good playing condition and typically you will be allowed to return it if you find that your daughter doesn't like it. I've personally bought clarinets from Dave Spiegelthal (http://test.woodwind.org/clarinet/BBoard/profile.html?f=1&id=195), Steve Sklar (http://test.woodwind.org/clarinet/BBoard/profile.html?f=1&id=1505), and Wes Rice (http://www.clarinet-repairs.com/) and can wholeheartedly recommend any of them.
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Author: paker
Date: 2012-03-17 05:28
Very interesting reading. In what way is a clarinet, considered to be good in 1940, inferior to today's counterpart, say Buffet E 11, 12 or 13?
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Author: Ursa
Date: 2012-03-17 07:48
Paker, the main concern with a 1940-vintage instrument is the possibility of the wood shifting dimensionally over time, which can wreak havoc with the response and tuning of a clarinet.
A good clarinet from 1940, which has received proper maintenance, does not have issues with wear, and whose wood has not shifted or otherwise deteriorated, should be quite usable today. My main performance instruments, in fact, date from the 1950's.
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Author: LMullan
Date: 2012-03-17 14:45
Hello Mr. Kissinger,
She said her current clarinet is an Image. I have been unable to find any information on it doing a regular internet search, so I'm guessing that's probably the model and not the manufacturer. The instrument is at school over the weekend, but I will have her bring it home on Monday so I can get more information from it.
We purchased her current clarinet from a local music store as a beginner/student instrument. The store, unfortunately, went out of business during the economic downturn. (It was very sad after being in business here for decades!) I know her current clarinet is plastic and I believe we paid somewhere between $200-$300 for it.
Thank you for all of your help. You have all been so kind and I really appreciate it.
Best,
Lorie
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Author: LMullan
Date: 2012-03-17 15:23
Thank you, Steve, for your recommendations and pointing me in the right direction! Please pardon my naivety, but I had no idea there were so many other options.
We would like to purchase one that would serve her for several years -- preferably, into her college years (she's currently a high school freshman). Given that, do you think we should be looking at an intermediate or a professional model? I know that may mean adding to the bottom line.
Thank you for all of your help!
Lorie
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Author: paker
Date: 2012-03-17 17:14
QUOTE
Paker, the main concern with a 1940-vintage instrument is the possibility of the wood shifting dimensionally over time, which can wreak havoc with the response and tuning of a clarinet.
A good clarinet from 1940, which has received proper maintenance, does not have issues with wear, and whose wood has not shifted or otherwise deteriorated, should be quite usable today. My main performance instruments, in fact, date from the 1950's.
END QUOTE
Ursa,
Thank you for the explanation. I thought today's precision manufacturing technology (machining, tuning, etc) puts today's clarinets a step above the old ones.
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Author: SteveG_CT
Date: 2012-03-17 17:50
LMullan wrote:
> We would like to purchase one that would serve her for several
> years -- preferably, into her college years (she's currently a
> high school freshman). Given that, do you think we should be
> looking at an intermediate or a professional model? I know
> that may mean adding to the bottom line.
I'd recommend just deciding on a price range and seeing what is available. Don't worry too much about whether an instrument is labeled as intermediate or professional. My one warning would be to try to steer away from older instruments (anything made before ~1970). You can often find good deals on older clarinets but they are frequently more difficult to play in tune compared to more modern ones due to differences in their design and as a result are not ideal for younger players or inexperienced players.
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Author: Jack Kissinger
Date: 2012-03-17 18:57
Lorrie,
"Image" may very well be the working brand name. These days our music stores (not to mention discount department stores) are overrun with Chinese-made student model clarinets. Occasionally, they are decent. Occasionally the seller checks them out very carefully. Unfortunately, however, too often they're just a cheap option to fill the low-price niche. Parents who don't know any better buy them because they are new, shiny, inexpensive and one clarinet looks pretty much like any other -- until it starts to fall apart. We have a term for such clarinets around here -- CSO for clarinet-shaped object. (BTW, I find the "Image" cleverly named. Guess what happens if you try to Google "Image clarinet" to learn about the instrument or its manufacturer!)
My take on your situation is quite different from what Steve has suggested to this point. In my experience, a good new student clarinet from Yamaha, Selmer, Leblanc or Buffet (the big-4) should be plenty of instrument to carry the average child through high school. If a child really takes off and becomes serious about his/her playing, it also should be enough instrument until that child is ready for a good (and relatively new) professional model. I doubt very many students reach this point before they are in high school. And most students probably aren't ready until their junior (or, in exceptional cases, their sophomore) year.
In general, unless money is not an issue, my recommendation is don't look to replace a child's clarinet until it's clear the clarinet is holding the child back. You say your daughter has been playing for around 2 1/2 years. I'm guessing then that she is in 6th or 7th grade. You obviously know your child much better than I do but, if I were you, I wouldn't be rushing out to buy a professional clarinet just yet. First of all, I doubt your daughter has reached the point where she needs it. Second, if you buy it now, it will have just that much more use on it later when she is ready for it and wants it to be in peak condition, e.g., for competitions and college auditions. Third, at your daughter's age, the one thing that is constant about children is change. What may seem an overwhelming interest now may fade rapidly in a few years when she discovers boys, school musicals (and singing and acting), science club, etc. Right now, the clarinet is probably still very much in jeopardy of becoming a passing fancy.
Depending on how well-designed and constructed the Image clarinet is, your daughter may or may not need a better instrument at this point. If it is a CSO, I wouldn't be rushing out to buy her an intermediate model, and certainly not an old used one. At this point, what she most likely really needs is a good student model. IMO, you should be looking at a new (or at least recent) student model clarinet from one of the "Big 4" I mentioned above. My preference would be new. Steve says it's absolutely essential to try a clarinet before you buy it. Good advice for someone who has the expertise/experience to evaluate an instrument accurately. The problem in your case is that you really don't have anyone with that kind of expertise and experience. You don't play, your daughter hasn't been playing long enough, and it sounds like her teacher is not really an expert. Therefore, while it's still a good idea to have your daughter try the clarinet, I think it's particularly important for you to buy a brand you can trust from a seller you can trust. That way the instrument you buy has the highest probability of being reliable out-of-the-box. You're still going to have some risk but at least you'll minimize it.
If a new (Big-4) student clarinet is out of your price range, I would look for a clarinet that was purchased new and used lightly for a year or two by a beginner who has given it up. (In spring, after school lets out for summer vacation, is often a good time to buy.) Such a clarinet is likely to be in good playing condition though, for hygienic reasons, you probably want to consider having it at least cleaned and disinfected at a shop.
A few more random thoughts:
1. If your daughter is playing on the mouthpiece that came with her clarinet, you might be able to improve her playing experience dramatically simply by purchasing her a relatively inexpensive good quality (student) mouthpiece.
2. Buying an instrument from a repair shop can be a good strategy but, for you, I would recommend: (1) only a clarinet made by the Big-4, and (2) nothing more than about 10-years old.
3. Steve listed a number of intermediate clarinets that he thought might be a good choice for you. Rather than start a big argument, I'm just going to say that, for your likely needs, I disagree with him. With one or two exceptions, the clarinets in his lists are older (in some cases, quite old) discontinued models that carry too much risk for someone who doesn't know a lot about clarinets. Several, BTW, are wooden student models, not intermediates at all.
4. If you don't know something about musical instruments before you start, finding the right equipment for a child's first musical experience is a minefield experience. Trying to do it on the cheap is even harder.
5. My evaluation of your Buffet is a general assessment based on my experience with the instruments I've seen. Yours may be similar or it may be different. I wonder what your repair tech thinks. (Remembering he may be trying to sell you some service.) What does he think about the instrument's condition. What work does he recommend and how much will it cost?
6. You mentioned your daughter is potentially interested in teaching music. If you haven't already considered it, now would be a good time to consider piano lessons.
7. I just went back to check the original thread and discovered that, while I have been writing this, there have been a couple more posts, including Steve's about avoiding older clarinets in your case. You can probably tell from what I've written here that I totally agree with him (except that I probably wouldn't go much before 2000 for a student or intermediate model, or 1990 for a professional Leblanc. Clarinets do not improve with age.
Best regards,
jnk
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Author: SteveG_CT
Date: 2012-03-17 20:14
Jack Kissinger wrote:
> 3. Steve listed a number of intermediate clarinets that he
> thought might be a good choice for you. Rather than start a
> big argument, I'm just going to say that, for your likely
> needs, I disagree with him. With one or two exceptions, the
> clarinets in his lists are older (in some cases, quite old)
> discontinued models that carry too much risk for someone who
> doesn't know a lot about clarinets. Several, BTW, are wooden
> student models, not intermediates at all.
We must have different definitions of what is "quite old". All of the models I listed were in production at least into the 90's with the exception of the B&H (stopped after 1983). The Signet and YCL-34 are basically still in production under different names.
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Author: Jack Kissinger
Date: 2012-03-18 04:11
Steve Galonska wrote:
"We must have different definitions of what is "quite old"."
We probably do. But I also think we need to make a distinction between "models" and "product lines." By "older model," I meant a model that has been replaced by a newer version in its manufacturer's current offerings. It's "older" in the sense that there is newer model marketed under a different name. By "older discontinued model," I meant a model that is no longer included in its manufacturer's current product line.
The Selmer Signet is a product line that has had a number of models over it's life which, as you know, extends back to before World War II. Just going from memory, I can think of the Signet, the Signet Soloist, the Signet Special and (I believe the last in the line) the Signet 100. There are probably more. Filling the same role as the Signet 100 and perhaps essentially the same clarinet is the CL100. The other models are all discontinued AFAIK. My main point though is, if you find a clarinet marked Signet, it may be around 15 years old or it may be more than 50. To me, that's potentially quite old.
Noblet and Normandy also had a number of different models over the years. There were current models in production when the factory closed. But there were also older models that had been discontinued, some potentially quite old. Also, Normandy clarinets were a student, not an intermediate, line. Leblanc's intermediate line was the Noblet.
While you may be correct that the CL100 is essentially the same clarinet as the Signet 100, Yamaha would not consider you correct in making the same claim for the YCL-34. According to Yamaha, the YCL-34 (at least in the U.S.) was discontinued [their term] in 2001. It was replaced by a new intermediate model, the YCL-450 (which also replaced the YCL-52). To me it is an "older discontinued model" -- discontinued and older than the (different) current model. Quite old? Perhaps not Its dates were 1978 - 2001 -- certainly not as potentially old as a Signet, Noblet, Normandy, Boosey and Hawkes, or Evette and Schaeffer (K-series).
As you point out, the Boosey and Hawkes clarinets were discontinued in the early 1980s and the Edgware was around for quite a few years before that. I would classify them as "quite old discontinued models." I know there are some people on this Board who love to recommend them. I don't know why. IMO, the Edgware was always a very low-end (student) clarinet. I rebuilt one for a friend. It had cheesy keys, and a plastic-coated barrel and bell. I think there is a reason these clarinets almost never bring $100 on eBay and it isn't that they are undervalued.
The Evette & Schaeffer Model was re-branded the E13 in the early/mid 1980s. Was the E&S model discontinued and replaced by the E13? Probably not. For one thing, the serial number list continued unabated. The important thing to note, however, is that any clarinet marked E&S will be at least 25-30 years old -- an older model even if not technically discontinued.
Best regards,
jnk
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Author: annev
Date: 2012-03-19 21:13
Steve Sklar,
I own an Olds Studio clarinet, from the 1950s, which has the slight upward bend on the pad cup at the top of the lower joint. Phil Pedlar, who has an interest in French stencil clarinets, worked on the clarinet and helped to theorize which company might have actually made the clarinet. His theory is that it was made by SML. If you are interested, that information is posted on Phil's website at:
https://sites.google.com/a/clarinetpages.net/www/vintage-odd-brands/olds-studio
I understand that there were many small clarinet manufacturers at that time and it's possible that keywork was obtained here and the body of the clarinet made there. But it makes me wonder whether that upswept pad cup is truly indicative of a Malerne made clarinet.
Lorie,
My son's first clarinet was a Selmer from the late 1920s. His band teacher used to call it, "the impossible to play clarinet", although both my son and his private clarinet teacher seemed to do okay with it. The biggest problem was that whenever my son struggled with some aspect of his clarinet playing at home we never knew if it was the clarinet or his technique. I had very little clarinet experience at that time and didn't know either. In retrospect it would have been a much better experience if we had bought a lightly used student clarinet from the Big Four, as suggested by Jack Kissinger. A good mouthpiece on a student clarinet can go a long way in producing a very nice sounding clarinet.
Good luck to you in your search!
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Author: stevesklar
Date: 2012-03-20 15:52
Lorie,
Yes, I also wonder if the upswept pad cup is solely indicative of Malerne as my basic research has somewhat disproven ... the Martin Freres as an example. I'm more curious with the low serial number of the few Martin Freres I've looked at if they could be the early E&Ss ?
There are other identifiers that one has to look really closely. And it would really help if particular models are in one's hands for comparison. Though I don't plan on heavy research of any type as there are many brands I simply do not research as I'm not really personally interested.
Unless we get exact samples side by side, take measurements, etc we really don't know.
For example - I had a Buffet Academy model vs Buffet regular model which I had in my hands which were 275 sn #s apart. That was quite an eye opener. there is alot of info about the Academy Model, but having one in my hand and a virtual "same time" manufacturing twin really showed the real differences versus speculative.
In the end, if the clarinet plays and sounds well then it is a good playing clarinet. Proper maintenance and storage, care can make them last a long time. I've seen some 1920ish clarinets which look brand new with deep emblem imprints, etc. And they play nicely. Not the nice, thicker and sturdier keywork of today and improvements in intonation, etc. but still very nice playing clarinet.
==========
Stephen Sklar
My YouTube Channel of Clarinet Information
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Author: LMullan
Date: 2012-03-24 01:14
Hello Gentlemen,
We have decided to proceed with gifting the old E&S to our daughter, not as an upgrade to her current instrument, but as a piece of history -- and a really cool, beautiful, clarinet.
My daughter is a freshman in high school and I have been recently reminded that she has been playing for 3 1/2 years, not 2 1/2 as I previously indicated. I currently do not believe her clarinet interest is fleeting. She loves music more than anything. She practices daily and take the initiative to do so on her own. She is a straight-A student.
Considering all this, we have also decided to take the recommendations here and pursue one of the "Big 4" as an upgrade to her current clarinet. Thank you, Mr. Kissinger, for pointing out that clarinets do not improve with age. I guess I thought of them as everything else -- better with age when cared for properly (antique cars, furniture, etc., come to mind).
We've also come to the conclusion that we are probably not going to make this happen for $300-$400, but I'm sure like a lot of things in life, you get what you pay for. Our goal is really to find her something worthwhile, so we're ok adding to the bottom line if we need to, but I'd like to cap it at about $600 if its doable. But, I definitely need to be looking at wooden clarinets, correct?
Mr. Kissinger, her band instructor had mentioned upgrading her mouthpiece as well, but has said that it wouldn't make any difference unless we upgraded her clarinet. (Translation: her current clarinet is not a good instrument!) Which brings me to my next question: What's a good mouthpiece to buy? I'm asking in case we decide to purchase a lightly used clarinet that doesn't come with the original mouthpiece. I've heard that Van Doren is nice, but have the "halo effect" Steve mentioned regarding Buffets, although she does currently has a Van Doren leather ligature.
As always, thank you all for all of your input. It is so great learning from all of you and I so appreciate your comments, suggestions, and sharing your knowledge with me.
All the best to you all,
Lorie
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Author: Jack Kissinger
Date: 2012-03-26 01:12
From a standpoint of what your daughter needs, I think the answer is probably a good plastic student model clarinet and, if you had been better advised when she was starting out, and had bought her one then, we probably would not be having this discussion now.
3 1/2 years down the road, a new plastic clarinet might be a big disappointment to her even though it would likely be a big improvement and you could find one within your price range. New intermediate clarinets from major manufacturers tend to run $1,100 - $2,000. If you want something at this level, then, you pretty much have to settle for used. I'll keep my recommendation simple. I would suggest you look for a lightly used Yamaha YCL-450. Yamaha quality is generally consistently high and Yamaha is the one major manufacturer that is willing to compete on price. New Yamaha clarinets typically sell for at least a couple hundred dollars less than comparable clarinets from their competitors. The YCL-450 is popular so used ones are fairly easy to find. I've seen several examples that appeared to be in good condition sell on eBay for $350 - $550 recently. Expect to pay more at a music store, if you can find a used one there, because you don't bear as much risk as you would on eBay. As a second choice, I guess I'd suggest an E11 -- perhaps a little more status to the E11 because of the Buffet name and it is a good clarinet but IMO not as much clarinet for the money as the YCL-450.
Vandoren makes good quality mouthpieces at a reasonable price. One thing to be aware of is their wide range of variety in style. Your daughter would probably like some and hate others so you have to make sure you buy the right one. She probably should try quite a few after she has her new clarinet if you decide to go this route.
Alternatively, Clark Fobes makes an inexpensive mouthpiece for students. He keeps the cost down by using plastic. It sells for about half the price of a Vandoren. Many students use these through high school at least. It is a good middle-of-the-road design for a beginner/intermediate player. Fobes also makes an intermediate hard rubber model in the same design that sells for about the same price as a Vandoren. If you go this route, you don't have the number of options to worry about but I would still recommend a trial, if possible, to make sure it "fits" your daughter.
It would probably be a good idea to keep an open mind about buying a new mouthpiece even if one comes with her new clarinet. The one that's included may not suit her at all. Also, hang onto the Image. It is good to have a cheap plastic clarinet for marching band season when bad weather can potentially harm a good instrument and accidents are prone to happen.
Best regards,
jnk
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Author: annev
Date: 2012-03-29 20:48
I had a look at my teacher's Evette and Schaeffer today, and now I'm curious because it's clearly quite different from Lorie's Evette and Schaeffer. The clarinet has a four digit serial number beginning with 6 (no prefix). The G# and A keys have seperate posts and there is an adjusting screw on the top of the G# arm. The pad cup at the top of the lower joint is straight (no upward bend).
I put it side by side with my K-series Evette and Schaeffer (from 1970). The differences that I noticed were: The support arm to the pad cup for the alternate B/F# sliver key on the lower joint has a curve, instead of being perpendicular; the bridge key has side wings on the portion that is on the lower joint, rather then upper joint; the adjusting screw on the throat G# (which I mentioned above); silver rather then nickel plated keys. The rest of the keywork is identical to my clarinet, including a rounded support for the trill keys.
I should have had a closer look at the logo. It was in an oval and said Evette and Schaeffer around the edge but I couldn't say with any certainty what the rest of it says.
I read on Steve Sklar's site that Evette and Schaeffer clarinets with seperate supports for the A and G# keys are post 1955. The keywork also looks a lot like an R-13 from the 1950s that is posted on his site. What do you think? Would this be a four-digit no-prefix E and S that's made by Buffet?
Edited for typos
Post Edited (2012-03-30 12:10)
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Author: Jack Kissinger
Date: 2012-03-30 00:07
If you get another chance to take a close look, look for: (1) the words "Master Model" somewhere near the logo, (2) an additional digit (4 or 5) at the beginning of the serial number that is nearly worn off, (3) wood cut out under the right-hand lower joint cluster (pinky) keys. Also look at the trill key guide. Is it a triangle or a rounded cylinder? While, in general, it is not true that Evette & Schaeffer Master Models were actually R13s, rejected for some cosmetic blemish, a few have actually turned up. What distinguishes these from the other master models is: (1) no K- prefix, (2) R13, rather than E&S design, including the curved sliver key you describe and cutouts under the cluster keys. The clarinet you are describing sounds like an R13 design with an E&S label.
Best regards,
jnk
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Author: annev
Date: 2012-03-31 02:18
Thank you very much for the information, Jack. I passed your comments on to my teacher. He was quite intrigued and offered the following answers for me to post:
The logo has Evette and Schaeffer and Modele Buffet-Crampon written around the ring. There is no "Master Model" marked anywhere, nor are there any cut-outs under the right hand pinky keys. The trill key guide is a rounded cylinder. The serial number looks like it might have been re-stamped.
If the serial number follows the K-series numbers, then the clarinet would be made in 1955, which would fit with the fact that it has seperate posts for the G# and A keys.
We'll take some photos when I'm there next week for my lesson, and I can post those, if they are of interest.
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Author: annev
Date: 2012-04-06 02:02
Here are some photos of the Evette and Schaeffer clarinet. The serial number, 6XXX (no prefix) is on both the upper and lower joints. The Evette and Schaeffer logo is on the barrel, upper joint and bell.
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Author: annev
Date: 2012-04-06 02:15
Attachment: IMG_2092.JPG (1433k)
Attachment: IMG_2089.JPG (1657k)
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Attachment: IMG_2107.JPG (1355k)
That was the upper joint. Here is the lower joint. The curved arm on the alternate B/F# sliver key is one of the few features that seems different from the keywork on my 1970 K-series Evette and Schaeffer.
Post Edited (2012-04-06 02:26)
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Author: Jack Kissinger
Date: 2012-04-10 05:59
Your teacher's clarinet is something of an anomaly to me. I have never before seen an E&S between ~K3000 and somewhere between K10000 - K11000 that was not marked Master Model. Somewhere between K10000 - K11000, Buffet began limiting the designation of "Master Model" to a few E&S clarinets that performed particularly well on final inspection. The logo on your teacher's clarinet is similar to these later E&S clarinets but the keywork is different from a later one I took a quick look at (K16xxx) and a couple of earlier ones I found pictures of. The shape of the bridge link on the upper and lower joints is quite different. On K16xxx, the link is the same as an R13 from the period -- "wings" on the upper joint and small piece on the lower joint. I know I've seen something similar to the pointed wings on the lower joint of your teacher's clarinet but I can't remember where. Perhaps an old plastic Evette? Also, on the lower joint, K16xxx's rod is longer than on your teacher's instrument and, I suspect, the sliver itself is different.
I don't know the answer. Perhaps not all E&S from K3000 - K10000 were Master Models after all and perhaps the ones that weren't had a different design. But the words "Master Model" are an integral part of the logo (not a separate stamp) on those earlier E&S clarinets. Perhaps, on your teacher's, the serial number was stamped on over a previous number by an owner. But why? And how does on explain the different keywork? As usual, there are more questions than answers for me.
Best regards,
jnk
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Author: annev
Date: 2012-04-11 02:15
Thank you very much for your thoughtful response. It's interesting that the clarinet is different from both earlier and later K-series E & S clarinets. When I was taking photos I had a chance to look at the serial number more closely, and while the number on the upper joint looks like it might have been re-stamped, the number on the lower joint is relatively clear and may well be an original (it is the same number - 6XXX - with no letter prefix). I guess the clarinet is just another question-mark in the Evette and Schaeffer story! Thank you again for your insights.
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Author: Ian. C
Date: 2022-07-27 17:21
Hello, does anybody know how I find out how old a Buffet Crampton Evette Schaffer F series is? It says made in France on it. The one I am looking at is an A clarinet & I'm thinking of buying it but I'd like to know when it was made before I make a decision. Thank you.
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Author: SunnyDaze
Date: 2022-07-27 21:40
Hi,
I wondered if I could chip in a thought as an adult learner who has recently been down this route? (Sorry I haven't read the whole thread - it is an epic one.)
I started on a vintage clarinet and then bought a new one after about 2.5 years of playing.
The thing I found was that the choice was incredibly personal, and that it was only by trying clarinets in the shop that I could choose one.
When I went to the shop I tried Selmer, Yamaha and Buffet models (from Yamaha-640 up to the £2500 Buffets). There no question of thinking "maybe" about some of them, or being uncertain. For me, one of the Yamaha models was just head and shoulders above the rest, and I would never have believed it if I had not been there play-testing them.
Also, it was not the most expensive one that was best (it was cheaper than the rivals by nearly 30%).
I had the same experience with mouthpieces. The shop man gave me a dozen mouthpieces to try, and there was one that worked beautifully for me and the others were no good at all. This is a personal choice, and might have been quite a different mp choice for another person.
So for me, the most important piece of advice I would take from this thread would be to go to a shop and play test. Also take a listener as well as a player, and an electronic tuner so you can check if they play in tune right across the range of the instrument.
I would also be inclined to choose the mouthpiece first if you can, so that you can then test the instruments knowing that the good mouthpiece is in place and the same on all of them.
Good luck!
Best wishes,
Jennifer
(who plays a Yamaha Custom CX and a J&D Hite D mp.)
Adult learner, Grade 3
Equipment: Yamaha Custom CX Bb, Fobes 10K CF mp,
Legere Bb clarinet European Cut #2.5, Vandoren Optimum German Lig.
Post Edited (2022-07-27 21:42)
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