 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: MDFP
Date: 2012-02-14 21:52
Attachment: IMG_20120214_200858.jpg (179k)
Attachment: Voz 004.mp3 (38k)
Attachment: Voz 006.mp3 (107k)
Hello everyone.
I'm a young wind repair technician.
I have a problem with a Buffet Prestige clarinet.
In G5 (first note above the staff) every time I play it there is a really strange noise. Something like a bzzzzzzzzz.
I Tryed with 3 different mouthpiece, with 3 different barrels, with different reeds. I also remove all the keys and all pillars. With all the tone holes covered, the noise was still there...
Also without the lower joint...
The image is the clarinet without all the metal parts covered with plastic and adhesive tape.
Here are two little audio recording of the noise.
Can someone help me please?
Thanks...
MDFP
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Author: Bob Bernardo
Date: 2012-02-14 22:27
Somethin in the lower key hole or a piece of fish skin on a pad somewhere lower then the key hole. It could be the G but I'd look at the keys behing the G, lower register.
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Author: MDFP
Date: 2012-02-14 22:46
Hi Bob.
Thanks for your replay.
But...
I've removed all the keys and posts and played that specific note without the lower joint. And the noise still was there.
Without any metal parts and with the holes all covered....
It can´t be from a loose skin, from metal parts vibrating against each other, and i polished the tone. After cleaning it i tried bore oil, little sanding to remove any loose part of the wood, bees wax, and nothing of this solved my problem.
And only in that note. In the lower C there is no noise.
The inner surface of the wood is smooth, cleaned, oiled, and there is nothing loose.
My last suspect is some kind of frequency vibrating result of an harmonic or some of them.
I don't think is anything physical in the wood or metal parts.
I'm trying all variables of it.
And removing all the brass parts there is it yet.
So y suspect of that annoying frequency...
MDFP
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Author: sdr
Date: 2012-02-15 01:29
Have you tried playing it in a different room? When I practice, all kinds of stuff in the room can vibrate and rattle. It can drive me a little crazy looking for the source -- usually my son's snare drum.
-sdr
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Author: MDFP
Date: 2012-02-15 01:37
Yes. I did it.
Always the same.
This noise is driving me crazy!!!
Thanks for the replay.
MDFP
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Author: Ken Shaw ★2017
Date: 2012-02-15 02:17
If you have the buzz playing just on the upper joint, that's where the problem is. Give the upper joint a severe leak test: take off the keys, plug the holes and the bottom end, immerse the joint in water (after all, it's designed to get wet) and blow hard on the top end, or use compressed air.
It's odds on that you'll have a stream of bubbles coming from somewhere -- from around the register tube or the thumb hole tube, around a post or maybe even through a fault in the wood grain. If the upper joint plays the low C OK, then you should suspect the register tube.
Another possibility is that there's a nick or open wood grain in one of the pad-covered tone holes.
Have you cleaned out the register tube? Have you examined the bore to make sure no post has broken through?
You might also ask on the Yahoo Musical Instrument Technician board http://launch.groups.yahoo.com/group/musical_instrument_technician/messages.
When you solve the problem, please let us know what it was.
Ken Shaw
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Author: Joseph Brenner, Jr.
Date: 2012-02-15 02:28
Does the distortion vary with volume? I heard distortion throughout the first sample. At the outset of the second sample, the sound seemed focused and lacked distortion. As volume increased, the sound became distorted. Is your embouchure changing as you increase volume? Is the tube for the register key clear?
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Author: genekeyes ★2017
Date: 2012-02-15 03:41
Make sure that there is nothing in the vent tube. Also check the clearance of the register key....esp if it has a cork pad. If you do have a cork pad, make sure the edges of the cork are rounded.
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Author: clarnibass
Date: 2012-02-15 07:14
Since you've tried it in a different room (actually maybe go to a completely different area, just to make sure), you can try a few things.
Play this G with the register key open (normally), then while you play it close the register key, but keep playing this G (i.e. don't let it drop to the C). Is the noise still there when you do this?
After that I'd start with something mostly similar to Ken's suggestion. Plus all the tone holes and the bottom of the upper joint. Fill the joint completely with water, then spill the water out and blow to the top of the joint. Start soft and increase your blowing force. A leak will have air bubbles through the water, sounding pretty similar to blowing to a straw in a glass of water.
If that doesn't find anything, I would put the entire joint in water and blow. I use an extension hose that connects to a rubber stopper plugging the top of the joint, so I can put it there and see it. Without that, you can cut an old coke bottle to slightly longer than the joint (though remember that it will be slightly longer with the rubber stopper at the bottom) and put it there with water and blow from the top (if you don't have something big enough to put it in).
I would also suggest you let others play it. Actually at first I wouldn't tell them about the problem, just let them play it. Then tell them to check the high F-to-A area. Only then specifically the G, but without telling them what the problem is. Unless they notice the problem (or you can hear it) much sooner.
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Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2012-02-15 09:44
I like Ken's suggestion ..... except for the water part !!!
I had a frustration with a bad note on a horn, took off all the keys, plugged up the holes (to release one at a time) and just for snicks did the ol' suction test on the plugged up top joint........... IT DID NOT SEAL !!!!!
I found my leak UNDER one of the 'A' key pillars (the hole was tapped too low and actually exited (ever so slightly) into the bore.
GOOD LUCK !!!!
..............Paul Aviles
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2012-02-15 10:35
As long as it isn't submerged for too long and dried off immediately afterwards you shouldn't have anything to worry about.
I've had joints that leaked through pillar holes and these can only be discovered quickly by doing the underwater test (like you'd do when finding a puncture in a bike inner tube).
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: Tony F
Date: 2012-02-15 13:22
As long as the keys are off the joint you need have no worry about submerging it. I did exactly this recently with a porous Penzel-Mueller, and it quickly located the problem. My first thoughts are a pillar drilled into the bore or a leak around the register tube. Have you checked if the register tube is seated to the correct depth?
Tony F.
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2012-02-15 13:27
As they're often loose on Buffets, that could well be the cause.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: MDFP
Date: 2012-02-15 13:56
Ken Shaw: I've removed all the metal parts. Keys, posts, register tube and left thumb tube.
I triple check all holes, polish it with different materials and there is nothing loosing air.
The whole body wood is closed. There is nothing open. Neither grains nor under the posts. As i can see...
Joseph Brenner, Jr.: Yes. As louder as I play the distortion increases. I'm not changing anything in my embouchure and can't be from the register key.
I also tried to play this G with the key closed (harmonic) and I've removed the tube. Still buzzes.
genekeyes: There is nothing in the vent tube. Can´t be from the cork pad. Rounded edges and I've tried without this key. Removed it.
Clarnibass: I've tried it. Closing the register key.
I'll try the submerge suggestion...
I've asked to 3 different friends to try it. 4 guys played on this clarinet.
Me, the owner and 2 other work mates. All discovered the buzzing noise.
Paul Aviles: As you can see in the picture I attached on the first post I removed all the keys, posts, register tube and left thumb tube.
Then I wrapped all the joint with adherent plastic and pressed everything tightly with adhesive tape in order to seal al holes and the wood body. Nothing different. Still buzzes.
Chris: For sure I'll try the submerge thing.
There is not much danger to the wood because it is well moisturized with oil. Seems like my last resource!
The clarinet were in a overall work in another shop.
Before it there was no noise.
So, I suspect they did something to the tube and and damaged it...
Thank you all.
As soon as I found a solution I will let you know. If i can find it! :(
This is driving me nuts!
MDFP
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Author: MDFP
Date: 2012-02-15 14:06
Tony F: I removed the register tube and placed it correctly. After trying without it. The same. Buzzes.
I'll try removing this tube and leaving all the keys. Either with and without the register key.
Chris: I'll check it as said above.
Richard smith: All the pads are closing correctly. I'll try to find it by submerging the joint.
Thank you all.
MDFP
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Author: clarnibass
Date: 2012-02-15 14:33
In addition, did you also try a different barrel? Both same length and possibly shorter but slightly open.
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Author: rtmyth
Date: 2012-02-15 15:55
little more- the entire vent tube, not just the pad lip, may be the culprit.
richard smith
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Author: MDFP
Date: 2012-02-15 16:17
Clanribass: Y tried with both barrels of my own clarinet.
Richard Smith: I'll check it.
Thanks.
MDFP
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Author: MDFP
Date: 2012-02-17 17:20
Attachment: IMG_20120217_155524.jpg (143k)
Hi everyone...
I tried submerging the clarinet searching for leaks and there was not even one...
I'm driving nuts!
Any other ideas?
Thanks for all your help...
MDFP
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Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2012-02-17 21:50
I don't know how you'd even check this, but maybe there is some sliver or raised, separated, thin piece of bore on the INSIDE of the first (?) tone hole of the bottom joint. Kinda a misfire in the undercutting process???? This is just a WILD shot in the dark.
..................Paul Aviles
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Author: Bob Bernardo
Date: 2012-02-17 22:36
Could the "Buzzing," be your wife yelling at you? Sometimes I can't tell the difference if it's my wife or the horn!!!
Seriously, I'd try using cork pads with the upper register, instead of the standard skin pads. For Buffet R-13 clarinets I like the 9 mm's or sand down a tiny bit of the 9 1/2 mm's using those ladies nail sanders on those sticks. The 9 mm's drop right in, but are often just a shade too small for the tone holes. Some people may disagree, but I've been doing horns like this, using the 9 1/2mm's since the 70's. I also use the 9 mm's too, depends on the hole size.
For the record Selmer pro clarinets use 9 1/2mm, so be careful when placing an order. Cork pads are around $1 a piece.
At one time I made my one from the cork on wine bottles.That cork is so soft and really wonderful, but it takes up too much time to make them.
What I like about the slightly wider cork is you can sand, trim off just a tiny bit to help tune those stubborn notes. The same goes for notes that are sharp all of the time, a tiny bit wider pad, the 9 1/2 pads can help lower the pitch just a tad.
I've only seen this happen once, so the chances are really slim, but here it goes.
The octave key has that post going into the bore of the clarinet. First take off the octave key and see if the tube has a tight fitting. When the air is dry this is when this tube may wobbled just a tiny bit. While you are working on the tube take a pipe cleaner and stick it up the tube, Often there are assorted particals inside. I know you said you did this already, just double check for me!
Lastly, make sure the actual key, the one you press to hit the octave notes is positioned OK, pad wise. If it's too close to the tube you will hear a hiss when you press open this key. You can open this ever so slightly to fix the buzzing, which can be limiting the air flow. There is actually a greater chance of buzzing if you use skin pads. If you open it too much you will hear a grunt in the upper register when you articulate some of the notes. So if this is too closed in you will hear a buzz. Also make sure the standard skin pad has enough clearance from the tone hole. This is actually one of the cork pads I trim down. The air isn't restricted because you have sanded down the weigth/circumference of the cork. The sanded cork just covers the hole and it doesn't overlap the hole. So long story short try playing with this octive key.
I can't take credit for this, nor can I take much credit for doing quality repair. I learned how to repair from Hans Moenig in the late 1970's to the early 80's. Cool man. People have said he had a temper. I never saw it. He was always happy and fun to joke with.
Hope this helps.
Designer of - Vintage 1940 Cicero Mouthpieces and the La Vecchia mouthpieces
Yamaha Artist 2015
Post Edited (2012-02-17 23:02)
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Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2012-02-17 23:30
Wow Bob,
I wouldn't be so quick to assume your wife doesn't check the 'Board' just to see what you're up to.
...................Paul Aviles
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