 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: VCMM
Date: 2012-02-19 23:21
Any more experiences with this new model, particularly in comparison with the old CSG? Also, does the CSG-II come in Hamilton plating?
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Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2012-02-19 23:30
Only a brief chat with a Yamaha rep, but it's my understanding that the ONLY difference is the low E/F vent key..........certainly a welcome addition to the Boehm clarinet.
THEY SHOULD ALL HAVE ONE !!!!!!
.....................Paul Aviles
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Author: ttay1122
Date: 2012-02-20 03:50
I tried the CSG-II in a local music dealer here in Idaho. I regularly play a CSG-H so I was able to compare mine against the new CSG. My opinion, they were okay. They didn't respond as well or as quickly as my horn. You can definitely feel the added weight from the extra vent key and the left hand Ab/Eb lever. The lack of response could have been from the keys being so new that they weren't quite broken in yet. The vent was noticeable but not enough to make me want to sell my horn and buy one. So I guess they are pretty good but I don't think they are worth the extra $$ just for a few keys that make the instrument heavier. My teacher also had the opportunity to try them and had a similar opinion. She plays a Rossi so her comparisons weren't quite the same as mine but I say save a few hundred and stay with the original CSG.
Taylor
P.S. I believe they are also available in the Hamilton plate too. The ones I tried were silver plate.
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Author: JamesOrlandoGarcia
Date: 2012-02-20 19:04
As I had stated in my previous thread, I had the opportunity to try to the CSGIIH-L. To clarify that is the CSGII with hamilton plate and the low E/F correction. I was absolutely in love with the clarinet and played on it for nearly an hour at Midwest. There are very few available right now and I have yet to try the A clarinet version.
There is a difference between the hamilton plate and silver plated keys. There a better response and darker sound with the hamilton plate. I've experienced this comparing the regular csg and csg-h.
The CSGIIH-L that I tried was still lighter than my R-13. As far as CSG versus the II. There is a difference but I can tell you that playing with really good players and needing a strong Low F in orchestral and chamber rep is a must. I'm sick of having to "back off and push up" when playing the low F in Mozart, Brahms and beyond.
Once I have the set to play with Orchestra and doing chamber music, I'll write a comprehensive review and upload some recordings on to youtube. I'll also have some very good repertoire that I will be playing before the season is out to test these horns out with: Le Tombeau, Dvorak 8, Mozart 39, and Tchaik 5 to name a few.
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Author: clarnibass
Date: 2012-02-21 03:46
I've tried both CSG and CSG-II, each in Bb and A and each with silver plating and Hamilton plating. I've tried the CSG a few times but then it was a year apart until I tried the CSG-II, without an original CSG to compare side by side. I thought both were great. If something happened to my clarinet it would definitely be one of the models I would consider to replace it with. IMO there was no consistent difference between silver and hamilton plating. I would recommend the model with the extra key for those who want it. It does help. I personally would prefer not to have this extra key.
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Author: ttay1122
Date: 2012-02-21 09:18
The horns in themselves were very nice in general. And even with the added keys they still felt lighter than my backup R13. I wasn't able to try the CSGII in Hamilton although I would have liked to. They were beautiful horns, and yamaha never gives us any reason to doubt them anyways. I think they are #1 in comparison against other clarinets boasting the same features from Buffet or LeBlanc.
Taylor
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Author: VCMM
Date: 2012-02-21 11:21
There certainly is a fairly substantial price point difference between the CSGH and the CSGIIH, but the low E/F key sounds interesting.
Living in Baltimore I've yet to find a good brick-and-mortar music instrument store that carries Yamahas to try. Perhaps a trip up to the NY Atelier is in order. I've not done this before; does one just call in advance to schedule an appointment? Reading old posts in this forum, it seems like Yamaha had been receptive toward non-professional musicians visiting the Atelier. Is this still the case?
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Author: Tobin
Date: 2012-02-21 17:13
What is the price point of the new model?
James
Gnothi Seauton
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Author: Tobin
Date: 2012-02-24 23:00
What's the timetable with the seller you're using?
James
Gnothi Seauton
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Author: Bradley Wong
Date: 2012-02-25 18:04
I've had a set of CSG's for a while. Silver B-flat and Hamilton A, which for me (and a few others I know) make a great match. At last year's ClarinetFest I tried the CSGII's, and bought the A (again, Hamilton) on the spot. Tomoji Harakata, the Yamaha tech out of NY, said they had been working on improving the already excellent acoustics of the A clarinet, and they really nailed it. He did say that the difference between the CSG and CSGII in the B-flat is minimal as far as the acoustics, and that the big difference is the keywork. I found this to be true - the new keywork on the CSGII B-flat was an improvement, but the sound was close enough to my CSG that I didn't feel compelled to make a change there (yet!), but the CSGII A clarinet was dramatically better. I've since had a chance to do the Mozart Concerto with the new horn, and was thrilled with how comfortable I felt with the sound, projection and flexibility - no problem at all playing over the orchestra.
Since becoming a Yamaha artist, I have used these instruments for solo recitals (including traditional rep and contemporary), chamber music (wind quintet and with strings), orchestral playing, and concerto performances with orchestra and band. I couldn't be happier with how they play in all of these circumstances.
My previous instruments were Buffet R-13; Selmer Recital; Leblanc Opus; Rossi French bore. I have appreciated all of these instruments (still do), but for now, the Yamaha CSG and CSGII are the right clarinets for me.
Disclaimer - as noted, I am a Yamaha Performing Artist.
Brad Wong
Western Michigan University
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Author: JamesOrlandoGarcia
Date: 2012-02-25 20:18
I just got a set of csgii's on trial including only Hamilton csgiiah in the country. I'll report back after I have spent some time with them.
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Author: JamesOrlandoGarcia
Date: 2012-03-01 03:54
These CSG 2's are the most satisfying clarinets I have ever tried. They respond and feel different from my Buffets. You have to get to know them sort of speak but it is well worth it. I still plan on writing a comprehensive review but right now playing these clarinets is utter euphoric. Best intonation, consistent sound, hold and a whole new ability to express myself.
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Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2012-03-01 08:35
Dear Bradley Wong,
Not that this is particularly germane to the current discussion but I am curious as to the barrel length that you use on your horns. Currently I use a 54mm (53.8 in Yamaha speak).
................Paul Aviles
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Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2012-03-02 06:31
Thank you Brad.
I always thought the 'longer' barrel that comes with the horns to be a bit optimistic on their part.
...............Paul Aviles
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Author: JamesOrlandoGarcia
Date: 2012-03-08 23:15
Oddly enough. I'm using both of the longer barrels on the clarinets with my M30 13 series mouthpiece and I'm comfortably at 440 all the way around.
I'm still working on my review but these clarinets are just fantastic. I feel like I have found my voice for the very first time.
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Author: The_Clarinetist
Date: 2012-03-28 09:02
I am actually thinking of getting a set of these clarinets as I have heard a lot of great things about them.
It might be a detail of low significance but about that extra low F/E vent key, is the Bb clarinet case adapted to fit a lower joint with this extra lever and how about the double case that the A clarinet comes in?
I have only seen one photo of the yamaha A and Bb double case for the csg:s but would certainly prefer the buffet prestige case. I know I might have to modify the case a little to accomodate the longer upper joints but will the F/E vent key also become a problem?
Just out of curiosity, any one happens to know the bore diameter of the csg compared to lets say an ordinary buffet, is the csg smaller? Or is it just the shorter barrel that allows yamaha to call the csg half-german?
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Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2012-03-28 17:50
Shouldn't be an issue throwing the CSGs in most any case. I switch amogst standard Leblanc and Buffet cases regularly. The correction key is fairly flush witht the back of the body.........also should not be an issue though I have only had experience with Wurlitzers on this score.
The bore is a 'hybrid' acoustically. I believe this is why the low E and F are a little flatter actully. But don't expect a German sound. It is merely a different take on the standard French Boehm.
.....................Paul Aviles
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Author: JamesOrlandoGarcia
Date: 2012-03-28 21:31
Attachment: Photo Mar 28, 4 30 38 PM.jpg (48k)
Keep in mind that CSGII in the USA is the CSGIII in Europe. I believe the CSGII/III is being sold with a new double case. It's much like the Buffet Pouchette case but with separate spacesfor the bells, a much needed improvement on the design. It also comes with a really nice case cover that is study and has tons of storage space.
I really like look of the case but I don't use it. I much prefer my Marcus Bonna case as it can be made into an ad hoc triple case. I'll attach a pic of the Bonna case.
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Author: The_Clarinetist
Date: 2012-03-29 12:30
Thanks for the info!
I actually opened up my ordinary buffet case and discovered that the lower joint had some moving space as it lay and an extra vent key should indeed not be any bigger problem.
My ideal packaging configuration would be mouthpiece barrel and UJ as one unit and LJ/Barrel as one. That way you can pack/unpack your clarinets faster, you tear less on key mechanism and emblems. In additon you might build the case more compact. When you split an assembled non-full bohem clarinet in half you actually get to halves of exactly the same length allowing you to make use of the space in the case more efficiently. If you have a case that can carry the clarinets in that configuration you hardly ever have to disengage the other parts.
If I am correct the pouchette case lacks an internal storage which seems thoughtless to me. The bonna though might be the thing for me even though it is not as elegant as buffet's prestige double case...
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Author: The_Clarinetist
Date: 2013-02-22 13:32
I recently got to try some csg clarinets at my local store.
What are your impressions of the extra vent key? It did alter the pitch, but in my case and with both of the clarinets there that had this key the tone became very stuffy. I did not have any tuner with me to check the intonation but I was not bothered by any intonation problems with low E and F as they were. Any comments?
I think I can see in James' photo that his clarinets have a metal tenon on the upper joint, a detail the newer clarinets I tested lacked. Wonder why...
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Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2013-02-22 16:08
Ya know, someone else recently made mention of the "stuffiness" with the vent. I find this affect really odd, since the vent itself should "open" up the sound more in priniciple. I must add that I have not had the opportunity to try this horn but have had Wurlitzer 100c clarinets with the same gizm and there was no ill affect (no affect at all other than bringing up the pitch) to the low "E" and "F." It must be noted that the Wurlitzer vent hole is rather large (equal to that of the other lower notes) and is located at the upper end of the bell. From a promo shot of the Yamaha it looks to be located on the body of the lower joint itself - NOT an optimal placement!
I still look forward to trying these out myself someday
..................Paul Aviles
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Author: Pappy
Date: 2013-02-23 13:51
I played a set of CSG-II's for several days as well as a set of CSV's. I agree about the stuffiness with the extra vent key. It DID bring the pitch up but the quality of the note was odd. They both also had very stuffy C#s. The Ab in the clarion were fine but the chalumeau C# was consistently stuffy. Great instruments though. Liked them a lot. In the end I decided on a pair of CSV's which I am very happy with.
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Author: clarinetfixer
Date: 2013-03-02 00:15
In regard to the fuzzy/stuffy low E and F with the vent. Have Tomoji put a "W" in the tone hole. It's a trick used on bassoons, but it works wonders with the CSG-II. On the set I was trying for a few months, a simple piece of brass that looked like a W did the trick.
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Author: The_Clarinetist
Date: 2013-03-02 07:27
Interesting. And the pitch altering function still works with this W?
Perhaps my local repair technician knows about this trick as well.
Do you have to compensate a lot for the flatness of the low E/F if not using this vent key? It does cost some extra so I was wondering if it's actually worth it for my new set. Will bring a tuner with me next time to figure out...
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Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2013-03-02 15:49
The lower pitch is more noticeable on the "A."
Coming from Europe though, you must be familiar with the German makers that have the optional vent key on their top line horns. It is only necessary if you feel a need to belt out a low F or a low E.
................Paul Aviles
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Author: The_Clarinetist
Date: 2013-03-03 07:47
I have never played on a German horn but yes I am familiar with their design.
So the vent is only necesseray for the low notes when playing forstissimo? Pardon my ignorance, but is it because you have to "bite" softer on the reed in order to play louder and hence decreasing the pitch?
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Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2013-03-03 14:43
Dear "The Clarinetist,"
Biting is taboo on any system in any country.
Just to back track a bit, the Boehm system achieved some of it's nouveau fingerings by allowing the "B" in the middle of the staff to be somewhat high in pitch and allowing the low E and F to be slightly flat. We (perhaps more subconsciously these days) make up for this by "adjusting" on the fly. You can do this adjustment for the "B" by making the tension of your embouchure less tense (all around the mouthpiece like a rubberband) or creating a shift in air speed using "voicing" techniques.
The German System horns maintain an even scale across the break and just allow the low E and low F to be fairly flat. You can increase embouchure support somewhat (or voice them differently) and not play these notes too terribly loud and get away with it. However to make a full correction at a good moderate volume, the only solution it to add the thumb trigger.
.................Paul Aviles
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Author: JamesOrlandoGarcia
Date: 2013-03-05 20:52
The low E/F mechanism is all confined to the lower joint. This helps minimize cost and allows for a flexibility in changing out bells in the future. I did notice a slight fuzziness in the corrected low F however it is never audible in any recordings that I make, I think it is more of a feeling that the player perceives. The mechanism just gives a you a flexibility that makes the experience more enjoyable.
Any clarinet of this custom caliber will need to be worked to meet the needs of the specific player that uses them. We have different mouthpieces, oral cavities and beyond that influence how clarinets play.
For myself, I needed to line the throat tones and had Yamaha make a shorter bell for me for my Bb. The A needed some linings in the right hand notes. When my colleague tried my horns, these corrections for me became problems for him. Everyone is different.
I'm still 100% crazy about my CSGII clarinets.
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Author: afmdoclaw
Date: 2013-12-25 13:02
Paul
Your amazing (maybe).
So many comments yet you say "I still look forward to trying these out myself someday" Wish I could opine on an instrument without playing.
Nevertheless you must explain "creating a shift in air speed using "voicing" techniques."
Voicing-- involves adjusting your lips and/or your tongue and/or your throat and/or your abdominal muscles and/or a sphincter yet to be named.
Thanks in advance.
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