 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: Roxann
Date: 2012-01-11 03:47
How much of the mouthpiece should I be seeing over the end of the reed once I have the reed in place? Should I always line up the ligature on the lines engraved in the mouthpiece so it's not too high or low? Thank you for your expertise.
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Author: Tony F
Date: 2012-01-11 06:11
I carefully centre the reed on the table, with the tip pretty well lined up with the end of the mouthpiece. When looked at from the back, or the beak side of the mouthpiece, there should be a barely visible crescent of reed showing. The ligature lines on the m/p are for guidance only to aid you in consistently placing the ligature in the same spot. Where this spot is will be decided by you when you experiment and find out what works best for you.
Tony F.
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Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2012-01-11 09:40
Depends on what you call 'lining up' from the tip rail standpoint. I've had more than a few mouthpieces that had (as you look from the side) a slanting tip BEFORE it reached the actual rail. To get the reed just covering the rail itself meant lowing the reed much more than a typical mouthpiece. So that said, I aim for just covering the FLAT surface of the tip rail, but this can be varied UP as the reed becomes less resistant with use.
...........Paul Aviles
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Author: dansil
Date: 2012-01-11 12:16
I usually sight the position but adjust it when I put my tongue onto the tip of the read. I don't like any reed protruding from the top rail and I don't like any top rail above the tip of the reed. And I also use my tongue to feel how centred the reed is on the table as I find this even more reliable than looking! (just my weird way of doing things).
However I'm just as curious to learn how far up or down the reed/mouthpiece other players push their ligature and how the position affects the tone and intonation. Interestingly I've never seen any discussion about this issue and have always wondered how important it is. I've tried keeping the ligature as high as possible and as low as possible and have experimented with in the extremes but haven't found a personal answer (if there is one) to this supposedly simple issue!
Danny Silver
a family doctor in Castlemaine, rural Victoria, Australia for the past 30+ years, also a plucked string musician (mandolin, classical guitar) for far too long before discovering the clarinet - what a missed opportunity!
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Author: ramsa
Date: 2012-01-11 13:08
I'm also having the same issues, and will be watching the posts to see if any hints I can use will show up. The variables of MP, ligatures, reeds, and positions of these together keep me pulling my hair out. Some days everything goes great, and the sound is awesome, and the next day the same exact set-up will squalk, be too hard to blow, or suddenly produce dull or shrill notes. There must be some voodoo that I'm not aware of yet...
Thanks!
This is a genuine signature.
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Author: Bob Phillips
Date: 2012-01-11 16:06
I have a very reed-friendly Lee Livengood facing on an M30/13 blank. I think that it is very symmetrical left/right --that the side rails have the same curve.
This gives me a wonderful reference for positioning the reed. I'm using Austrian French Cut PL brand reeds, and they seem, with my symmetrical mouthpiece, to be amazingly well balanced. The left and right edges are equally hard.
That means that my starting point is to center the reed on the mouthpiece. I make sure that the butt of the reed is centered on the reed table and that the reed is very accurately centered at the tip.
With the end of the reed matching the mouthpiece tip, I test the reed for balance by rotating the horn to press first one side of the reed and then the other hard against my lower lip so that only the OTHER side of the reed can vibrate. I then do a very sharp attack, playing an open G. I use both a hard breath attack and an ffz tonguing. Usually, this test shows that the reed is balanced. If it is not, I'll remove it and use the Ridnenour ATG system to thin the side of the reed that does not vibrate as willingly as the other.
Alternatively, you can balance the reed by shifting it toward the stiff side. I don't like to do that and prefer to balance the reed and use it centered.
When the reed is well balanced when centered, I then pick the vertical position of the reed. That lets me change the stiffness of the reed a bit.
As an old-timey mechanical vibrations engineer, I truly believe that the ligature position doesn't matter much. The basis for this is that I think that the reed is held flat to the table almost independent of where the lig presses on it. BUT, thinking of the reed as a simple "diving" board flapping at the end turns out to be terribly simplistic; and I have found substantial differences between ligatures.
Fiddle with it.
Bob Phillips
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Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2012-01-11 19:22
Ligature position depends on the ligature for me and perhaps makes less difference to those who have shorter lay mouthpieces. I wish there was a consistent design criteria that would make it easier to just throw a new ligature on CORRECTLY, but alas it's not the case. Many sound better lower, but some are particular about being UP (I never got my Eddie Daniels to sound good low and NEVER could figure that one out!).
..................Paul Aviles
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Author: Ed Palanker
Date: 2012-01-11 23:51
The main problem is how you look at the reed placed on the MP. I've seen this problem often. I like the reed to be even with the tip of the MP so I hold it up so I'm looking straight on at it. The reed and MP are in a straight line with my eyes. If you have it higher than your eyes the reed will look straight on the tip but will actually be lower. If the reed - MP is lower than your eyes the reed will appear to be straight but will actually be lower on the MP than you realize. You must look straight as if there is a line between your eyes and the reed-MP.
It doesn't bother me if the reed shape is slightly different from the tip shape of the mouthpiece. If the sides are overlapping the MP I may gently sand the reed to the shape of the MP but it doesn't usually make a difference in how it plays, it just looks better so I think it plays better. In many cases if the reed is just a bit soft you can place it just a bit higher, if it is just a bit hard you can place it just a bit lower. This will change the pressure point of where your lower lip presses on the reed and also allows the reed to vibrate a little more or less making it respond slightly different, sometimes for the good, sometimes not so much. ESP eddiesclarinet.com
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Author: Ken Shaw ★2017
Date: 2012-01-12 00:50
The most important thing is that can be no leaks. Many mouthpiece makers file the angle where the side wall and baffle meet, particularly at the tip, leaving very little flat area at the corners. If the reed is even slightly more curved than the mouthpiece tip, a leak is difficult to avoid. For the terminology, see http://www.clarinetmouthpiece.com/nomenclature.asp.
I use a Revlon Diamond Dust nail file to shape the reed tip so that it matches the mouthpiece tip exactly, and I also put the reed in a (Cordier) trimmer and maneuver it from side to side to get the tip shape right.
If you put the reed tip exactly even with the mouthpiece tip, it ends up slightly lower when it closes, because the curve of the lay is longer than the straight line it's in when you put it on the mouthpiece. Especially on low clarinets, you need to put the reed tip very slightly above the mouthpiece tip, and I do that even on soprano to make sure there's a tight seal at the corners.
Kalmen Opperman taught me to put the edges of the reed on a large flat file or fine sandpaper and sand it down to be very slightly narrower than the tip, perhaps 2/10 of a millimeter. Then, when you put the reed on, hold it with your thumb and move the tip microscopic amounts left and right until you get a resonant "ping." The difference is not subtle.
As to ligature position, the scribed lines are only suggestions. You experiment to find out what works for you and your setup.
Stanley Drucker puts his ligature as low as it will go. Elsa Ludewig-Verdeher puts hers as high as it will go.
My own experience is that with the ligature in the "Stanley" position, the tone is uncontrolled. In the "Elsa" position it's choked. Your results will almost certainly vary.
Ken Shaw
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Author: Claire Annette
Date: 2012-01-12 00:52
As for a ligature, I've never been a personal fan of tightening the thing to the point that the screw is hard to move.
Must a ligature have a choke hold on a reed? In college, I used to keep my ligature only tight enough so the reed wouldn't fall off the mouthpiece. These days, I use it slightly tighter.
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Author: Ken Shaw ★2017
Date: 2012-01-12 01:15
If you leave the ligature loose, you risk leakage underneath the reed. What's worked for me for over 50 years is to tighten the screws up snug and then back them off 1/4 turn.
Ken Shaw
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Author: Roxann
Date: 2012-01-12 03:35
ALL of you have given me a tremendous amount of information and I am most grateful. I will go through each of your suggestions and see what works! Thank you.
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Author: Bob Bernardo
Date: 2012-01-12 04:08
Mitchell Lurie always had the tip of the reed slightly above the mouthpiece opening. Sadly I never asked him why, but I'm sure he had a valid reason since he did this all of the time. This is just a guess so here it goes. I think he liked the reed in this position for tonguing. The tip of his reeds were only 5 thousandths of an inch thick, so he may have not liked the tonguing sound of the tip.
I would say he did it because the reeds were soft, but not in this case, because he always did it
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Author: gsurosey
Date: 2012-01-12 04:26
I put my reed tip slightly above the tip of the mouthpiece with everything at eye level. I have to be careful not to put it too high because if I'm not careful, I have ended up bleeding on reeds (I tongue very high on the reed and sometimes even end up tonguing above the mouthpiece; bad habit I've been trying to rectify for quite awhile).
----------
Rachel
Clarinet Stash:
Bb/A: Buffet R13
Eb: Bundy
Bass: Royal Global Max
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Author: salzo
Date: 2012-01-13 15:54
Wherever it plays best. Use your ears to figure that out.
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Author: clarinettist1104
Date: 2012-01-13 20:54
my teacher says the reed should stick out over the top. I didn't believe him at first, but after recording myself, there is A LOT more core to the tone, and it makes articulation and projection easier.
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Author: Ed Palanker
Date: 2012-01-16 16:51
Everyone is different and every mouthpiece and ligature is different. As I've always said about just about anything. EXPERIMENT. Try it in different positions, the same with the ligatures. Don't forget, metal ligatures will choke of the vibrations a heck of a lot more than material ligatures. I use Rovners and I tighten them snug but not overly tight, it all depends on the result you get. I keep it just below the bark, that works for me. ESP
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Author: gwie
Date: 2012-01-16 19:38
Ben Armato suggested this trick at one of his clinics...when the reed is wet, I push it towards the tip until it contacts, and look to ensure there is just a sliver of wood above the end of the tip (aka "sticking out over the top").
In my experience, most of the students I see initially usually have their reeds down too low on their mouthpieces, which really kills their sound.
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Author: miclew
Date: 2012-01-16 20:03
What an interesting thread! I had always been taught to have a sliver of the mouthpiece showing, certainly not putting the reed ABOVE the end of the MP but several people have said that is exactly what they do and I am guessing they are better players than I am!
Michele
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