 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: musica
Date: 2012-01-08 19:24
In clarinet solo at Y, Is it normally counted in 4 or 2? I've heard it both
ways but what is the norm?
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Author: davyd
Date: 2012-01-08 19:45
I've had only one opportunity to perform this lovely solo, and that was in a band transcription. It definitely felt better in 4, what with the tempo being Meno Mosso Tranquillo at that point. But I defer to the expertise of the Experts.
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Author: bethmhil
Date: 2012-01-08 20:42
I am also no expert, but hearing the solo in 2 is a little bit wonky to me. Even though the preceding section "feels" better in 2, the tempo is a bit slower at the Meno Mosso Tranquillo and therefore feels better in 4. There also doesn't seem like there's as much room for rubato in 2, because the counting can get confusing.
BMH
Illinois State University, BME and BM Performance
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Author: cigleris
Date: 2012-01-08 22:24
I personally think its a mix of both. The triplet feels better in 2 and the quavers (8th notes) in 4.
Peter Cigleris
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Author: kdk
Date: 2012-01-08 22:40
I'm not sure what you're asking. By "in two" do you mean doing it twice as fast as it would be "in four" or are you just thinking about how the rhythm should flow, in 2 large slow beats or 4 faster ones?
Karl
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Author: cigleris
Date: 2012-01-08 22:57
Karl, the OP is referring to the pulse. Should it be either 2 or 4 at the molto tranquillo. The rhythm flow really indicates both meters imo. All in 4 can make it sound too rigid while a mix can give a sense of movement while maintaining tranquil nature of the solo. All in all this needs to float and sound effortless.
Peter Cigleris
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Author: Buster
Date: 2012-01-08 23:03
I can't answering the question for anyone; that's your responsibility.
But simply playing it "in" 2 or 4 because it feels right is a bit presumptuous. Also, does the mental subdivision need to be audible in the aural realization?
As for allowing for rubato: simply painting rubato over a solo is a bit short-sighted as a 'phrasing' device. The accompanying figures in the strings should give some enlightenment as to how much rubato is allowable; or even "correct." (Couldn't interjecting rubato here actually destroy the metric division composed into the clarinet part. The delineation between the triple and duple subdivisions needs to be carefully considered.)
I do believe that the harmonic rhythm of the strings needs to be carefully viewed, along with the harp figure- which immediately precedes the clarinet solo, only to then return directly upon the solo's conclusion.
Perhaps, even why the piece is notated in 2/2 throughout (as arranged by Rimsky-Korsakov) needs to be analyzed.
Much more needs to be considered when making even a seemingly simple decision such as this. ... but I can't tell you that you are wrong as such.
http://www.free-scores.com/download-sheet-music.php?pdf=3852
-Jason
Post Edited (2012-01-08 23:08)
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Author: cigleris
Date: 2012-01-08 23:23
Jason,
Don't you think the "rubato" is actually in the solo? As opposed to someone imposing their idea of what rubato "should" be used?
Yes the strings help and the fairly slow moving harmonic rhythm is a guide for us, in fact it's the basses that really dictate the pulse. I also would throw in that the harp is a big help too.
Peter Cigleris
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Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2012-01-08 23:35
In my experience the conductor beats in four..........so I'd say FOUR.
Although if the trumpets don't know what's going on, odds are that they'll come in early :-)
................Paul Aviles
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Author: Buster
Date: 2012-01-09 00:10
Peter,
I thought I said all of that
but I guess I've been wrong before
-Jason
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Author: kdk
Date: 2012-01-09 00:35
The tempos throughout this piece are interrelated with a half-note pulse basically continuing throughout. So, looking at the score, the last tempo indication, which is at bar 381, calls for a tempo a little slower (poco meno mosso) than the animato assai that begins at 359. The animato needs to be in 2 beats (I can't imagine a conductor trying to beat in 4 here, although I've seen stranger things tried on the podium). When the tempo slows *a little* at 381, it still fits within a leisurely 2. When the clarinet solo begins the direction is to play even slower (meno mosso, Tranquillo). The accompaniment is fairly static but when there is motion, it occurs on half-note beats. Even the harp arpeggios are in groups of eight sixteenth notes (they begin on half-note beats in each measure) and are clearly meant to be a continuation from before the clarinet solo. So the overall pulse is still in half-notes. Whether the conductor moves his hands or the stick (or the clarinetist thinks) in half-notes or quarter-notes - slow 2 or faster 4, doesn't really matter much. The tempo shouldn't vary by much either way.
All of that said, of course, the clarinetist in most instances won't be the one who decides - that's what they pay the conductors the big bucks for.
Karl
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Author: kdk
Date: 2012-01-09 02:12
And to add to the idea that the actual tempo will be the conductor's, not the clarinetist's (regardless of how either is dividing the bar mentally), the solo flute plays the same thing (in major) a few bars later with no indication of a tempo change.
Karl
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Author: davyd
Date: 2012-01-09 02:52
Good point about the harp making a difference. If the transcription I played has a harp/piano part, it wasn't covered in this community band performance. (The drummer had never played chimes before, and had to be shown which tube to hit.) Fortunately, the sustained notes stayed in tune -- no small feat, considering that this lengthy and tiring number was the next-to-last work on the program.
A bit of rubato seemed appropriate. The conductor had sufficient confidence in the flautist and me that she allowed for that. My main concern was not letting the high E pop out.
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Author: Ed Palanker
Date: 2012-01-09 03:34
As I believe has been pointed out, it's the same tempo if it's in two or four. It just depends on what the conductor does. It's probably easier to think in two but it can be thought of in four as well. ESP eddiesclarinet.com
ESP eddiesclarinet.com
Post Edited (2012-01-09 17:36)
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