 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: cornellouis
Date: 2012-01-04 03:54
Hello,
I've been getting back into playing my clarinet after putting it down for 8 years. I've regained my embouchure a lot faster than I thought I would, but I still have a ways to go. I'm playing every day for about an hour. I think of it like weight lifting for my lips.
Today I'm using a jewel concert mouthpiece, a rovner eddie daniels ii ligature, and an unadjusted Steuer S900 3.5 reed (significantly stronger than a Vandoren 3.5). I noticed that on the low B (the alternate fingering using the pointer and ring finger of the right hand) that the clarinet hisses when that pad is opened. I did some searching and I've come to the conclusion that this is what is happening:
1. The stiffer reed requires more air power to vibrate.
2. More air is going through the open pad than is usual.
3. When that much air goes through the pad, it hisses.
The mouthpiece description says, "The Concert model is available in one medium facing that comfortably plays a VanDoren #2.5, 3 or comparable reed."
I am not a mouthpiece design expert, but it seems to me that perhaps a different mouthpiece might work better with stronger reeds. Perhaps one where the tip of the mouthpiece is closer to the tip of the reed? I've tried adjusting my embouchure, but the hissing is always present, and only in that fingering.
Is this correct? I don't know anything about mouthpieces. Will reed strength outgrow a mouthpiece? Are there any suggestions for the "next" mouthpiece that works well with stiffer reeds? Money isn't an issue. I've been very happy with the jewel, but I have no problem changing if it will eliminate the hissing. Some of my tone issues with the 3.5 are related to embouchure, but this isn't one of them.
Post Edited (2012-01-04 04:00)
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Author: Tony M
Date: 2012-01-04 11:25
I think you state the problem clearly enough but why not change the reed strength?
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Author: Tony F
Date: 2012-01-04 11:42
It looks as though you may have reached some sort of limit to the capabilities of the combination of that m/p, reed and your current embouchure. As a first measure, why not try reducing the stiffness of the reed. It's the cheapest option. You may find that the whole ensemble will work perfectly well with a more flexible reed. Playing a hard reed shouldn't be seen as an end in itself.
Tony F.
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Author: Tobin
Date: 2012-01-04 12:10
Hi Cornellouis,
Changing the reed/mouthpiece combination you're using isn't the appropriate prescription to solve the problem you're experiencing. Most clarinetists have a note or two on their clarinet that don't play particularly well -- there's no magical reed/mouthpiece combination that's going to satisfy every note.
This is especially true because the problem that you're describing sounds more like an adjustment problem: the pad of the RH sliver key doesn't lift enough, and it isn't venting properly. Take it to a repair tech!
If I'm right -- changing you're reed/mouthpiece to solve this is like changing the headlights on your car to improve gas mileage.
If you like the reed/mouthpiece combo you've been using for all the other notes -- keep using it.
James
Gnothi Seauton
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Author: kdk ★2017
Date: 2012-01-04 12:28
Tobin wrote:
> This is especially true because the problem that you're
> describing sounds more like an adjustment problem: the pad of
> the RH sliver key doesn't lift enough, and it isn't venting
> properly.
>
> If I'm right -- changing you're reed/mouthpiece to solve this
> is like changing the headlights on your car to improve gas
> mileage.
This was my first reaction, too, and I agree with James's advice. But a reed/mouthpiece that's generally too resistant *will* aggravate problems with unresponsive individual notes. So I'd also agree with the others that experimenting with lighter reeds on your current mouthpiece is also appropriate - especially true if other notes, like C#/G#, regular B/F# (rh 2nd finger), throat (lh 1st finger) F#, also tend toward fuzziness.
I wouldn't start looking for a mouthpiece based on the problem you describe.
Karl
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Author: cornellouis
Date: 2012-01-04 13:33
The reason I'm looking to play on harder reeds is that my feeling is is harder reed would ultimately assist in overall tone quality - but especially altissimo performance - once my embouchure/breath support is up to snuff. For example, my suspicion is that intentionally belting out a high E or high A (same fingering) would be easier on a thicker reed because the differences in embouchure and initial air pressure would be greater on a thicker reed. Also, I think a thicker Rees would allow me to Sound better on these notes and have more control of how they sound. A stiffer reed also has I think a steeper cliff, so it starts and stops vibrating in a shorter time period, so as long as you have the breath and embouchure, the high notes can be more responsive.
Certainly in the short term I can "downgrade" to a 3 (I have a big box of them on the way). I sound great on a Steuer 3 / Vandorren 3.5 and although endurance is still an issue, I have the chops to play and control that well through most of the chromatic range. Tone quality has been the main focus of my playing since I first started. I'm looking to play copland's concerto in the next year... And there a lot of high notes. If this is a common thing that once people get to a Vandorren strength of around 4, they often must change the mouthpiece - I'd rather know that now rather than struggling to control the tone of squeaks on a reed that's a bit too weak or leak like the titanic on a reed that requires an air pressure that's a bit too much.
I'm playing on an R13.
I posted on here to try and confirm my understanding of what is happening is correct. I'm all for solutions that don't involve swapping equipment. I just want to know how to sound better!
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Author: rdc
Date: 2012-01-04 13:34
I agree with the advice you have been given.
Does the low C also hiss? If not, check to see how far the pad on the right-hand ring keys opens and compare it to the opening of your right-hand sliver-key pad. If the sliver-key pad does not open as much as the ring-key pad, then more venting of the sliver key will help the problem.
If you can still obtain the Steuer reeds, perhaps you could try a number 3 strength. While it is true that a player with a developed embouchure can probably use a slightly harder reed than the mouthpiece description you quoted, the facing of the mouthpiece limits how far you can go. If you try to play on a reed too hard for the mouthpiece, you have to work too hard to blow air through the clarinet and you may develop the bad habit of biting on the reed with the embouchure. Playing the clarinet should not be a physical endurance contest!
While I think there are definite advantages to playing on a mouthpiece with a more closed tip and a longer facing (not everyone thinks so, however!), it is difficult to suggest a particular mouthpiece for you without knowing the facing measurements of your current mouthpiece and hearing you play. The terminology and nomenclature of describing mouthpiece facings varies too much from manufacturer to manufacturer, and there are other aspects of the mouthpiece design that affect reed strength.
If you are set on a new mouthpiece and harder reeds, I advise you to seek the help of someone (a teacher or mouthpiece craftsman) who can measure your mouthpiece (as a starting point) and help you from there. Good luck!
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Author: rdc
Date: 2012-01-04 13:54
Cornellouis,
We cross-posted.
It is true that the high notes take a reed strong enough to resist the increased embouchure pressure required to play them, but I think you have already gone farther than you need to achieve that goal.
I have found that a balanced reed, especially near its tip, will do more for your high notes than sheer strength. For the high E to A, try switching from the right-hand A-flat/E-flat key on the E to the left-hand F#/C# key for the A. The A will generally respond easier (and be a little sharper). The goal is to learn where these notes lie in the embouchure so you don't have to "belt them out." With a well-balanced reed, you should be able to go back and forth from E to A at a very soft dynamic level almost effortlessly.
I hope this helps!
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Author: cornellouis
Date: 2012-01-04 14:34
The low C also hisses (low D does not) and a few other notes I can't remember offhand. The low B was just the easiest to troubleshoot immediately and confirm it wasn't anything but the pad hole. Thanks for the fingering tip. I am feeling like I have to bite a bit on these harder reeds. A relief to know severing my lower lip isn't the only option to control a harder reed. I played on reeds in the 3.5-4 range for my last year of playing in high school, and I felt like I hit a ceiling with it in the sense that I was never able to adapt to the 4 the same way I had moved up to 3 and 3.5. With those, I sounded fuzzy for about the space of time it takes to wear out 5 reeds playing 1.5 hours a day. Most of the time I'm playing on something equivalent to a Vandoren 3.5. On the thicker reed, certain notes do sound better (e.g. The lowest E, open G). The throat tone F isn't very stable, but I suspect that might just be a quirk of that particular reed. I'll do some google searches and see what mouthpieces people are talking about, and I'll keep playing and see what more I can accomplish with practice on softer reeds.
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Author: BartHx
Date: 2012-01-04 15:19
I have to agree with rdc. In my experience, the balance of the reed is more important to tone and elimination of squeaks than is the strength. The balance of the reed seems to get more critical as you move to a softer reed. There are a number of sources of information on how to balance and adjust a reed. A balanced reed and lots of breath support are necessary to get the optimum performance from any reed/mouthpiece combination. A quality performance does not automatically equate to a stiff reed. It is well worth the time to learn to adjust a reed with precision before searching for new equipment. I speak from a similar perspective to yours. I put my clarinet down for 40 years before getting back to it.
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Author: DrewSorensenMusic
Date: 2012-01-04 16:44
I agree with rdc and Bart on balanced reeds, and I would like to add:
I believe it is important to have a reed shaped to fit the mouthpiece. I don't personally work on single reeds, but I achieved the right shape for me by trying every type of reed on the market. I noticed that even though they were the same "strength", they all performed quite differently on my mouthpiece. It's an expensive approach, and I now have lots of unusable reeds sitting in my room, but that's just what I needed to do.
A side note, one way I limited my selections was to choose only reeds that were filed. Filed reeds are supposed to make it easier for the extreme registers to speak. I don't know if that is fact or falsity, but It is a bit much to try EVERY reed out there.
R-13 Greenline
Clark Fobes Cicero 13
Rovner Dark
Rico Grand Concert Select Thick Blank 4.5
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Author: kdk ★2017
Date: 2012-01-04 18:33
DrewSorensenMusic wrote:
> A side note, one way I limited my selections was to choose only
> reeds that were filed. Filed reeds are supposed to make it
> easier for the extreme registers to speak.
I assume you mean that the bark is cut straight across, which I prefer as well, but there are a lot of "single-cut" reeds (with the bark edge left curved) even among major brands (so there must be a lot of players who prefer them). Vandoren, for example, covers both bases - Traditional and V12 are double-cut and 56 Rue Lepic reeds are single-cut. The Gonzalez reeds and all of the Ricos I've tried are single-cut, while the new Rigotti Gold reeds I've been trying this week are double-cut (despite the picture on the box, which shows a single-cut reed).
Drew, I'm honestly curious, since you used the straight-filed cut as a criterion, how you knew which were filed and which weren't before you bought them.
Karl
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Author: Tobin
Date: 2012-01-04 18:35
I agree with rdc's comments above concerning balanced reeds. As someone who switched to double-lip three years ago: I never realized how much an unbalanced reed was working against me until the switch. I have to adjust my reeds for balance.
In relation to reed strength and altissimo playing -- I frequently have students who can play the length and breadth of the instrument on strength 3 Vandorens -- if they've learned the proper embouchure and tongue position fundamentals.
It is beyond the scope of the BB to determine whether you and I would call the same thing a "good sound", but what I'm trying to deliver is that a stiff reed isn't needed to play high notes.
James
Gnothi Seauton
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Author: Trevor M
Date: 2012-01-04 18:45
I agree with everybody that suggests you have your horn looked at... if I had a single weird hiss on a low note, I'd immediately suspect that something was leaking rather than that my mouthpiece and reed were out of whack. What kind of clarinet are you using?
But... even if it's the clarinet instead of the mouthpiece, you should consider whether your mouthpiece is working for you, and, finances permitting, have the nerve to try some others out. Trying mouthpieces is a horrible chore and full of self-doubt. But, I personally think that hard reeds do sound different from softer reeds, and some mouthpiece accommodate them better.
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Author: DrewSorensenMusic
Date: 2012-01-04 19:00
Hi Karl,
Yea, I'm not saying that unfiled (single cut) reeds aren't good, I just had to limit somehow. I dunno, it's just something I read, and it seemed fine for me, so I stuck with it.
I really don't know how I found out, a lot of WWBW research. I spend a lot of money there last year. I should own the company.
I just looked at my box of discarded, and I only found Rico Grand Concert Select Thick Blank and Mitchell Lurie Premium. I use Thick Blank currently (the ones in the box are softer strengths) and the Mitchell Luries are great as well, but didn't have as nice a low end as the Thick Blanks. I use a short facing, medium tip opening. I use a Rovner Dark to take back some of the highs from the shorter facing.
Try the Rico Website, they should list filed or not. I think that's where I learned the intention of filing reeds. Vandoren probably tells you as well. I have tried Alexander as well, but didn't suit me.
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