 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: LJBraaten
Date: 2011-12-20 21:13
On my Bb clarinet I have primarily been using a Rico inverted H (Harrison knock off), and occasionally a Rovner Dark. I just obtained a used BG Super Revelation. I like the sound, but I notice that when I tighten it similar to my other ligatures, which is not much ( just a little beyond the point where the ligature makes firm contact with the reed), the top portion of the reed is very loose, and easily moves from side to side. I have tried moving the ligature up and down on the mouthpiece and it doesn't change the fit much. I have to crank the BG down fairly hard to get a stable reed. When I do this I feel like I am over tightening.
Is this normal for the GB SR, or is it possible that mine is stretched out (from its use on a different shaped mouthpiece)? If this is not normal I am thinking about trying to make some adjustments by experimenting with small shims (thin cardboard) at various points on the top of the mouthpiece (and under the ligature) to make the ligature "pull" a little more evenly. Or is there something I can do to stretch/shrink the ligature back into shape?
Laurie
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Author: oca
Date: 2011-12-21 04:01
Two things
One, BG Revelations are extremely "grippy" on the sides of the clarinet. Sometimes your ligature will grip the mouthpiece so hard that only the top half of the leather is tightening and the lower half of the ligature is still limp, thus causing your looseness.
So, to solve this problem you have two choices. The preferred method requires some liquid. Dip your finger in water and dab it on the sides of the mouthpiece. Be sure the water is not excessive to the point where the water is dripping from the mouthpiece onto your water fearing wood clarinet. Then tighten the ligature normally. An alternate to this method would to apply leather friendly lubricant.
The second method to doing this is to use force to "help" the ligature. By flicking the stressed points on the sides of the ligature, the energy sent through the mouthpiece may be enough to temporarily overcome the static friction that is restraining it. In combination, pull up on the screw of the ligature as this will aid in moving it.
Two, you should get a regular brass Revelation. The sound travels faster through brass than or silver gold (speed through a medium is equal to Young's modulus divided by the density of the material).
Good luck fellow BG Revelation user!
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Author: ramsa
Date: 2011-12-21 16:24
My ears perked up on this post. I'm about to be gifted a BG Super Revelation for Christmas from my wife. The standard Buffet ligatures that I have been using seem to "bottom out" when tightening the screws, and if there's enough meat on the reed to get a good grip, the ligature seems way too low on the MP.
I have read both good and bad on the BG SR, and looking forward to trying it out on my 5RV13...
Are some reeds cut more flat than others? I figured a typical Vandoren MP with a typical Vandoren reed would surely work alright with a stock Buffet ligature. Maybe the BG will solve this issue...
This is a genuine signature.
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Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2011-12-21 16:54
For 'lubrication' of leather (or leatherette) ligatures I have had success using talc (Johnson's Baby Powder).
................Paul Aviles
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Author: Jack Kissinger
Date: 2011-12-21 20:12
Note that with the Rovner and Rico ligatures, you have more ligature surface area contacting the reed and contacting the outer edges of the reed than you have with a Super Revelation, which effectively holds the reed with two thin center rails. It therefore doesn't surprise me that you might have to tighten the Revelation a bit more to make the reed secure. If the fabric (and the ligature is fabric, not leather) is stretched a bit, certainly a possibility, that could require even further tightening.
If you are not seeing grooves in your reeds from the BG rails, the ligature must still be somewhat loose. But with this kind of ligature, I wouldn't worry if I did see some indentation.
Finally IMNSHO, the comment about the brass vs. gold vs. silver, is a load of horse hockey.
Best regards,
jnk
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Author: stevesklar
Date: 2011-12-22 17:40
I used a BG revelation alot, and also my vintage harrison alot too.
The BG does need a bit more tightening by comparison to prevent reed slippage that you mention. But if I put the harrison lightly too I also get reed slippage.
As mentioned, it's just different (the screw mechanisms are drastically different as the harrison has more screw drag vs the BG - if that makes any sense which I'm sure a little oil would solve too)
I'm curious about the baby powder though as I've never thought of the higher grip of the leather part of the ligature on the mpc itself.
btw, I use my silver harrison ligature vs the gold one. Reason ... I dont want to wear the gold one out, thought I would save it for when I'm older
==========
Stephen Sklar
My YouTube Channel of Clarinet Information
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Author: oca
Date: 2011-12-23 07:32
@JNK
I stand corrected. The BG Revelaion ligatures do not use leather, they indeed use fabric, Arundo Donax wild caneFabric if anyone was interested in the specifics. (Source: WWBW)
However, I would like to address the claim that "you might have to tighten the Revelation a bit more to make the reed secure".
Surface area is only relevant when dealing with pressure, as in guage and absolute pressure (F=PA). However, we are dealing with force, a totally different subject which is not dependent on surface area at all. For example, you wouldn't weigh less because you are tip-toeing or wearing smaller shoes. Forces do not care the area. In my example, only mass and acceleration due to gravity matter. In the context of the BG ligature, only tension matters.
In discussion of the metal debate, I'm not confident in saying that one metal is better than the other, but I do know for a fact that sound travels faster through brass than the other two metals. Even though the only difference in the three ligatures is the less-than-one-hundredth-of-a-milimeter of coating of varying materials, I take pride in knowing I will be able to not hear the ligature produced vibrations before you do, haha I guess you are right. Even though the sound by the ligature travels through the ligature at different speeds, it would take a million dollar microphone to detect the difference.
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Author: Jack Kissinger
Date: 2011-12-24 05:05
You write: "Surface area is only relevant when dealing with pressure, as in guage [sic] and absolute pressure (F=PA). However, we are dealing with force, a totally different subject which is not dependent on surface area at all."
Are we dealing with force? I don't think you know that. First of all why would you even mention the concept of gauge pressure in this conversation? But that aside, I think you are too cavalier in your dismissal of pressure. Pressure and force are closely related. The metric, "pressure," is a derived measurement used to specify force per unit of surface area. You give the equation, F(orce) = P(ressure) x A(rea). This equation is simply a manipulation of the definition of pressure: P = F/A. The question is, when Laurie tightens each of her ligatures just beyond the point where they make firm contact with the reed, is she applying the same amount of total force or the same amount of pressure to the reed? I would say, pressure. If she was applying constant force, the amount at which the Rovner just makes firm contact could conceivably be enough to dig Revelation's rails into the reed. (You will feel considerably more pain if I stand on you on my tip toes, than you will if I stand on you flat footed. Even though my weight (normal force) doesn't change, the pressure I'm putting on your internal organs does, though the force (and pressure) cover a smaller area.)
If Laurie is holding pressure constant among the three ligatures, then she is applying the greatest total force against the reed with the Rovner, the next greatest with the Rico and the least with the Revelation. By itself, this could explain why the reed isn't as stable with the Revelation as it is with the other two but, I must admit, there are other factors at work. Laurie observes that, with the Revelation, the reed "moves easily from side to side." To eliminate the lateral movement, one must create sufficient friction between the reed and the mouthpiece, and the reed and the ligature to overcome lateral forces the reed will encounter. (Static) friction force, in this case, will be a function of the force exerted on the reed by the ligature and the ligature material (and its coefficient of friction). The Rovner dark has the highest coefficient of friction of the three so it should require the least amount of force to eliminate lateral motion in the reed. But, at a given amount of pressure, it is actually transmitting the greatest amount of force to the reed. So, we should expect it to do the best job of eliminating lateral motion. The coefficient of friction for the Rico and Revelation ligatures should be pretty much the same but the Rico's greater surface area implies greater total force given a specific amount of pressure and it should also be more effective than the Revelation (but not nearly as effective as the Rovner).
As for the metals issue, while I'm pleased to see you now understand that the distance sound would actually travel in the metal renders the metals' relative influence inconsequential, I think you've missed the larger point. The fact that sound travels about 45% faster through brass than gold and a bit less than 30% faster through brass than through silver is irrelevant here not just because we're only talking about a few microns of thickness. The purpose of the ligature is to secure the reed so that its business end acts as a springboard. The purpose is not to create or transmit sound. And what are these "ligature-produced vibrations" you are talking about, anyway? Surely not the sound waves generated by the vibration of the portion of the reed above the ligature? The ligature is located below the mouthpiece window. Are you saying that the sound waves in the clarinet are transmitted through the mouthpiece table, the reed and then the ligature? Or are you talking about some spurious vibrations the ligature is creating on its own -- while it is damping vibration of the mouthpiece and the reed?
Here's what I've seen so far. It appears you want us to believe you have some expertise in this area. Perhaps you do. Yet, (1) despite playing a Revelation, you apparently couldn't tell that it was fabric rather than leather (and, as a result, gave potentially bad advice -- something that works for leather e.g., "leather friendly lubricant" which would include shoe polish, will not necessarily work for fabric). (2) you've tossed around a number of scientific technical terms (e.g., Young's modulus and Gauge Pressure) that may sound impressive but are totally inapplicable to the issue at hand, and (3) you recommended someone spend money for a specious reason. I think you are trying to help but I don't think you are going about it the right way.
Best regards,
jnk
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Author: oca
Date: 2011-12-25 05:44
@jnk
"is she applying the same amount of total force or the same amount of pressure to the reed? I would say, pressure."
This is the distinguishing difference in our discussion. You define pressure perfectly, force per area. Note that it does factor in area. The Rovner has a different area compared to the BG. Thus for the pressure to be the same, the force applied to the Rovner must be greater and the force applied to the BG smaller. In other words, the force applied is unequal in your interpretation (according to your stated equation P=F/A). Set P1=P2. You get F1/A1=F2/A2. For the purpose of simplicity, lets make the area of the Rovner 2 and the area of the BG 1 and F1 the force on the BG. F1=F2/2. You can now see that F2 (Rovner) has a greater force, and that it is divided by 2 because of its area to match the force of F1 (BG). The main point of this is to prove that when pressure is equal and area is different, force is different. This is important for the next paragraph.
The source of the force, in which I hope we can agree, is the turning of the screw, which reduces the radius of the ligature thus resulting in a force/pressure on the reed due to the tension of the ligature. In my example in which force of the the Rovner must be twice as much the BG, you can see that Laurie must turn the screw twice as much as the BG to achieve equal pressure, given that the radius and the rate of radius change per revolution are the same for both ligatures. You can now see the inconsistency in your theory. I quote from the above post "The question is, when Laurie tightens each of her ligatures just beyond the point where they make firm contact with the reed". Here arises the contradiction. You must reduce the radius of the Rovner twice as much as the BG to achieve the same pressure, yet you state she tightens it "just beyond the point where they make firm contact with the reed".
I hope that is enough to disprove that. Now I present my argument. Force is the one that is equal and not the pressure. F1=F2. F=PA. P1A1=P2A2. P1=2*P2. This is consistent as you point out when you stand on your toes it hurts more. In our case, the BG (P1) does in fact have greater pressure. Also it fits the situation in which both ligatures are truly tightened equally by the same amount of turns of the screw.
On to our next point. You state that "one must create sufficient friction between the reed and the mouthpiece". This is completely correct; the problem is that you use the coefficient of friction of the Rovner LIGATURE to increase the the friction between MOUTHPIECE and the REED. The coefficient of friction of the ligature has nothing to do with how the surface of the reed and the surface of the mouthpiece interact. You could easily use a ligature made of solid lubricant and it would work to keep the reed in place. Friction is equal to the normal force between the objects multiplied by the coefficient of friction. As proved above, the magnitude of force of acting on the reed by the ligature is constant; furthermore, the coefficient of the reed and the mouthpiece is also constant between the two ligatures as the ligature has nothing to do with it. Thus it does not matter what ligature Laurie uses, as long as the force on the reed is the sufficient.
For Laurie: The looseness of the BG ligature on the reed may be because something is obstructing the tension force of the ligature. The main suspect of this is the high friction between the BG and the mouthpiece on the sides. Leather-friendly lubricant might work, but since it is really a fabric, you may need another kind.
Back to JNK.
The secondary reason that I prize the brass BG Revelation is that it is made out of a harder material than the others (the information to this can be found all over the internet). Also I recommend it to others because it actually costs less than the other models. Not that I want to make them buy a whole new ligature as it may seem in my earlier post.
My reference to the "ligature produced vibrations" is a result of sympathetic vibrations passed from the tip of the reed, to the butt of the reed, to the ligature. Each ligature vibrates close to the same frequency as the reed, but produce different harmonics, contributing to the sound of the clarinet. For example: Rovner ligatured clarinets sound different than traditional metal ligatured clarinets.
Responses to your points:
1. The BG material looks very much like leather, feels very much like leather, but is indeed not leather. Sorry.
2. My "tossing" around of scientific terms was to discuss the matter scientifically and objectively. "Gauge pressure" was only to debunk your theory. "Sympathetic vibrations" is to explain my theory. It is only added for clarification. I appreciate your addition of coefficient of friction to the discussion, but it seems ironic how you oppose my use of scientific words but include it in your response.
3. Sorry.
I've tried to explain this ligature situation as clearly as I can using science to make this as objective as possible. I try to not make it about the person, but rather the argument. Please if you see a flaw in my science or math please point that out rather than other aspects unrelated such as my character. You are closely approaching ad hominem. There goes another pretentious word
...Is pretentious a pretentious word?
Happy Holidays
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Author: LJBraaten
Date: 2011-12-27 04:12
Thanks all for the suggestions. Once the problem was identified it was an easy fix.
Problem: "Grippy" sides, resulting in ligature rails not seating properly on the reed, with less tension on the top half of the reed allowing it to move easily.
Solution: 1) A very small amount of talc on the sides of the ligature (so far one application has lasted several practice sessions).
2) Hold plate area (ligature "rails") flat on the reed with left thumb while tightening with right hand. This seats the ligature rails on the reed and forces any movement in the ligature to take place on the top, near the tightening screw.
I now use much less tension on the ligature, and have a more stable reed. (For those interested, the Mpc is an M13 Lyre, 88)
One additional note: since I don't want the ligature rails scratching the table of the mouthpiece while in the case, I have started leaving an old reed on it. I leave the reed a little low at the tip to allow ventilation.
LJ
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Author: oca
Date: 2011-12-27 05:45
The old-reed-to-prevent-scratching is GENIUS!
My old reeds now have a use!
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Author: LJBraaten
Date: 2011-12-27 05:53
oca wrote:
> The old-reed-to-prevent-scratching is GENIUS!
>
> My old reeds now have a use!
I agree, but I can't take credit for this, I saw this suggestion somewhere else on this board. This is the only ligature that I have that it looks like this might be a real problem. A bit ironic, however, since I remember my grade school band director training us not to do this (for good reason, of course, since we were just leaving our playing reeds on and not swabbing our mouthpieces).
Laurie (he/him)
Post Edited (2011-12-27 06:06)
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Author: DrewSorensenMusic
Date: 2011-12-28 02:41
Keeping an old reed on the mouthpiece should also help the ligature keep consistent shape I'd assume. I never had a problem with my BG super revelation, maybe because of this fact. Glad you were able to fix the problem.
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