 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: EEBaum
Date: 2011-12-23 20:10
Once in a while, I'll hear someone say that clarinet playing (or any instrument for that matter) is an intensely physical activity, and that we should train like athletes. However, the discussion usually ends with that anecdote, and perhaps a handful of stretching and breathing exercises, or some push-ups and laps in band camp.
Does anyone have any experience ACTUALLY training a musician, whether themselves or a student, like an athlete? I'm not looking for cases where a musician is also an athlete and it carries over, but rather a bona fide athletic-style regimen aimed at the musician, either as part of the practice session or as a targeted supplemental session.
-Alex
www.mostlydifferent.com
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Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2011-12-23 20:18
I think you might be missing the point.
Let's take the Olympics as an example. Athletes train hours upon hours on ONE routine for YEARS to be able to be 'super human' at this one event that may last all of thirty seconds.
Musicians practice hours of scales and hours and hours on just one or two really hairy bits of a solo or orchestral snippet only to have it disappear in the air in one audition or one performance.
The analogy is sound, but much more global in scope.
..................Paul Aviles
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Author: EEBaum
Date: 2011-12-23 20:25
That's not how I've heard the analogy used. I think you're suggesting that the parallel is between years of preparation for one moment of truth. I'm suggesting a parallel between the necessity for intense, focused physical involvement.
-Alex
www.mostlydifferent.com
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Author: EEBaum
Date: 2011-12-23 20:33
Indeed, David... that's a bit closer to what I'm talking about.
Further in that direction, I'm wondering if anyone has ever put together an actual regimen for themselves or their students, focused on improving various aspects of the physicality of performance.
-Alex
www.mostlydifferent.com
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Author: knotty
Date: 2011-12-23 21:36
I should think a general fitness program is the most logical. Strengthening the core, a bit of upper body light weights, a bit of aerobics, a bit of stretching. Just to improve the whole body strength and flexibility.
If I had to chose just one, it'd probably be a aerobics class.
~ Musical Progress: None ~
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Author: Bob Bernardo
Date: 2011-12-23 23:58
If this helps, when I was in the Air Force, (DC branch if that matters, some bands hardly ever march,) we had to march in parades sometimes. It is pretty hard to march and play. Your breathing is all over the place, most of the time it's in the wrong place!
I ran around 2 or so miles everyday and it helped a lot. So in a sense the clarinet of course requires excellent breathing exercises and technique.
I still run everyday, more like 1 mile now and walk 1 mile. California weather is pretty special, so I believe this training allows me to play several hours a day, if needed.
I'm sure everyone has different thoughts, but this works for me, because I have the lung power to not only control playing at "ff" but also, in my opinion, control "pp," which is sometimes harder to produce a beautiful even sound.
Designer of - Vintage 1940 Cicero Mouthpieces and the La Vecchia mouthpieces
Yamaha Artist 2015
Post Edited (2011-12-24 00:31)
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Author: Bob Bernardo
Date: 2011-12-24 00:24
Paul, I pretty much totally agree with everything you post. But people in the Olympics usually do other forms of exercises, sometimes just to get away from their daily specialty. For example weight lifters sometimes do some running and perhaps aerobics, but now that I think about it perhaps running and aerobics are part of their training.
Paul, while writing this I think I've sorta changed my thoughts. lol Although I may run to support clarinet playing, is it really needed?
Hmmm - Perhaps this question can't really be answered. Everytime I ran into Bob Marcellus, not that often for sure, and Iggie Gennusa, about 3 times a week, they were smoking! Iggie with cigarettes, Bob with cigars. Needless to say they were both fantastic musicians and I'm sure they didn't get out every morning or any time of the day to exercise!
So Paul, I guess I do agree, because these amazing players simply practiced and played in symphonies. I also know Iggie liked his Vodka! Maybe that was part of his practice routine!
Kind of a funny and maybe interesting story. Every Christmas Iggie would have a party. Pretty much everyone bought vodka as his Christmas gift.
Designer of - Vintage 1940 Cicero Mouthpieces and the La Vecchia mouthpieces
Yamaha Artist 2015
Post Edited (2011-12-24 00:34)
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Author: EEBaum
Date: 2011-12-24 03:03
These are the sorts of things I've generally heard advised. I'm curious, though, about possibilities that are more targeted to the particulars of the instrument, such that a practice session could be treated as a physical training regimen, integrating the performance aspect and the athletic aspect rather than tackling the two separately.
I'm interested both in an enhancement of the physicality of performing, and also in applying athletic training protocols to the types of exercises we already do (e.g. long tones, articulation, scales).
-Alex
www.mostlydifferent.com
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Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2011-12-24 03:25
Gosh Alex,
This sounds a bit confusing as a musical discipline. I do recall a documentary on the Philadelphia Orchestra in which a young (newer) member who played horn, started running to improve his breath control. Over time he became a competitive long distance runner.
Of course ............. just look at us.
Eventually you're gonna be fat and bald...............period.
.............................Paul Aviles
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Author: Buster
Date: 2011-12-24 03:28
contact Yehuda Gilad.
He does various things employing the use of an exercise bike while practicing.
Never tried it myself though
-Jason
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Author: oca
Date: 2011-12-24 03:48
Clarinet playing should be an Olympic sport
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Author: EEBaum
Date: 2011-12-24 04:31
Buster:
Playing on an exercise bike seems more gimmicky than anything else.
Paul:
My concern isn't with becoming fat and bald (though I have no intention to become fat). It's with different training benefits and methodologies that I think could be applied to clarinet playing. I don't know if they'd be effective, but I think they may be worth exploring.
Look at athletic training regimens, perhaps in the gym for starters. You typically do a handful of sets of repetitions, with prescribed rest periods in between. Attention is paid to how much you do and when you do it, to avoid overtraining, and to stagger said exercises on different days for maximal benefit, with different body parts responding better to higher or lower volume. Various types of exercises can offer different benefits, both direct and indirect. More obviously, stretches enhance flexibility, and dynamic warmups ensure engagement of various muscle groups. Further, bodyweight balancing skills and plyometrics fire up the nervous system, engage the core and various stabilizer muscles, etc.
So my interest is:
1) The exercises we do already -- long tones, articulation, scales, etc. -- we generally prescribe "do them" and just check in on them once in a while. I'm interested in seeing whether more athletically-minded approaches may be more effective.
2) Can exercises NOT in our repertoire be successfully integrated into the practice/performance environment as a routine, a routine that's progressive with targeted, relevant goals and measurable progress?
-Alex
www.mostlydifferent.com
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Author: EEBaum
Date: 2011-12-24 04:58
Maybe I spoke too soon about Yehuda... I'm just a bit biased against exercise bikes. I'll poke around, see what he's up to.
[edit: typo]
-Alex
www.mostlydifferent.com
Post Edited (2011-12-24 04:58)
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Author: Kride
Date: 2011-12-24 05:07
I easily spend an hour a day on my body. (57) I walk or swim for 35 to 40 minutes a day, do core work at night for 20 minutes and lift light weights for 10 minutes a day. Why? Walk is cardio and just general health, core is so my back can handle blowing a clarinet or sax for 3 hours a day. And the light weights are to prevent RSI's and tendonitus that tends to happen with overused muscles/joints. I couldn't play as much as I do without all this. Plus, I like feeling in some kind of shape. i doubt I'd do this if it didn't directly effect my playing. Ksaxman.com
Ksaxman.com
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Author: Buster
Date: 2011-12-24 05:52
Alex,
It involves varying the resistance of the bike at varying points; gimmicky- I'll leave it to the jury. Perhaps give it a try before dismissing it out-right. ......or contact Mr. Gilad for more info....
-----------------------------
Apparently I seem to be misunderstanding exactly what your aim is then:
Incorporating intense cardio (high-resistance on the bike for instance) while practicing something which requites great breath control would seem to fit part of your bill. The strengthening of the diaphragm (if close attention is paid to how the breath is inhaled and exhaled) would result from this, along with ab-system strengthening.
Away from the clarinet, core stability (strengthening, conditioning of the rectus abdominus muscles, internal and external obliques, transversus abdominus, latissimus dorsi) can be accomplished with a myriad of various style crunches, back extensions, squats etc... But you seem to want something to incorporate while actually playing so these wouldn't appear to fit what you are looking for either.
Quote:
I'm interested both in an enhancement of the physicality of performing, and also in applying athletic training protocols to the types of exercises we already do (e.g. long tones, articulation, scales).
I don't quite understand exactly what you are looking for.
Various isometric "poses" which would require core strength could be employed while playing. Same with various yoga poses. I suppose you could do a variation of crunches while playing. There are quite expensive "isometric breath exercisers" sold meant to strengthen the "breath system", but those are used away from the instrument.
I would have thought stationary bike cardio- would accomplish part of what you are after, but apparently is not an athletic protocol.
I guess I don't understand the "physicality of playing" as you mean it.
Quote:
So my interest is:
1) The exercises we do already -- long tones, articulation, scales, etc. -- we generally prescribe "do them" and just check in on them once in a while. I'm interested in seeing whether more athletically-minded approaches may be more effective.
2) Can exercises NOT in our repertoire be successfully integrated into the practice/performance environment as a routine, a routine that's progressive with targeted, relevant goals and measurable progress?
*On the 1st point- I don't apply scales, etc... in this manner so I am not quite sure what you are speaking of, but it doesn't really pertain to this discussion so we can dismiss it.
****On the 2nd point- What goals do you want quantified and measured? "Clarinet" goals? "Athletic" goals? Some combination that you have not really explained? Until those are explained a bit more in depth I am not sure how I/we can aid you.
---------------
I don't dissuade from weight lifting, cardio- or anything.... but if said exercises are not performed correctly you can harm your body. Wrist curls can reap havoc if done improperly; the same with push-ups if hand/wrist placement is not carefully watched. ---- However neither of these extracted exercises seem to be what you are looking for.
I partially tore my left latissimus dorsi (back muscle) 5 years ago, and never let it heal properly. It still hurts at times- I can "tweak" it very easily, and yes when "tweaked" I can feel it spasm while playing. -So I can speak with a hair of knowledge on the front of "weight-lift with care."
-------------------
But at the core of all of this, either I am confused at what you're actually attempting to get at, or I need a more specific question to actually offer more than gimmicky answers.
-Jason
Post Edited (2011-12-24 05:54)
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Author: Buster
Date: 2011-12-24 06:20
Just for a background:
I ran track in High-school. 400 meter: 52-something was my best. I could run a 5:40-ish mile. But that was 1996- 6ft., 145 lbs.
1996-2000; did a lot of ground work at a golf-course but didn't really exercise and I smoked. 6ft., 175 lbs. 12% body-fat. Nothing great
2000-2002; sort of hazy, but nothing specific to note re. work-out. Around 180 I would guess.
2002-2004; Started to work-out again, but with more focus on weight-training. Fairly strict diet, but not extreme. 6ft, 170 lbs., 4% body-fat.
2004; Moved to Mexico and got a little lazy with work-out regime. Actually lost weight- down to 160 lbs.
2007; Had some health issues I don't want to discuss; fell to 145 lbs. but was all tight muscle and sinew.
2008-ish; Got to the point where I left my job, had to stop playing for over a year. Then, I kind of played once a week or so for a year but was just treading water, not doing anything. Not working out at all, erratic diet at best.
2010-2011 Currently weigh 175-180. Health is much better. Don't know body-fat %, but I'm not "flabby." Try to keep active (always walk when I golf), walk when I mow the yard, shovel my and 3 neighbors' driveways in the Winter (and I hate snow), but don't actually work-out.
Been getting back in playing shape over the past 6 months or so. My breath control, and over-all physical control over the instrument are better than they ever were. Go figure. (Plus my knowledge beyond the realm of the "clarinet" is a heck of a lot more intelligent.)
2012- Considering we now have less than a year left, according to the Mayan calendar, I'm not sure what my work-out regimen will come to consist of.
What to make of it... I don't know. That's just my history for what it is worth; and if it illuminates at all. I actively practiced and performed for the entire period (was professionally employed for 4 1/2 years) save the mentioned "break" post-2008.
-Jason
[edited for clarity]
Post Edited (2011-12-24 06:32)
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Author: EEBaum
Date: 2011-12-24 07:03
Yeah, I'm not terribly sure what I'm going for either, the thought just dawned on me earlier today, still working out what it would entail and look like.
I wasn't thinking as much about things like playing while doing cardio. A few angles that I'd have in mind...
- An exercise program, outside of the clarinet context, but designed with the needs of a performer in mind. Extra attention to exercises that counteract problems typically brought about by clarinet playing. Lots of face pulls, wrist mobility, grip work, etc., along with a more well-rounded protocol. Make the player better able to meet the physical demands of performing.
- A program that either integrates with clarinet playing or is done at the start of a practice session, including warm-ups for flexibility/mobility/injury prevention/activation, but also, what I consider more important, to get the player into an active physical space while playing. So often, performing an instrument becomes so much a mental game that the physical aspect of it is neglected or treated as a liability ("my fingers just weren't there today"), and I'm interested in the possibilities in treating the physicality as an asset, especially for reactiveness to the situation and handling of nerves. I would guess that, typically, a person's physicality while playing doesn't increase much over time, and would like to investigate jump starting the process.
- Exploring protocols for existing practice. Rather than "prepare this page for next time", actually investigate and prescribe different ways about things like long tones, etc., measure their effectiveness quantitatively (or as close as we can get), adjust accordingly. You might do long tones at 12 seconds per breath then rest 6 seconds, then add a second per week for the next month, then switch to 8 seconds per breath with 2 second rests and work up from there. Not a great example, but that's the neighborhood I'm thinking, protocol-wise.
As for what I mean by physicality, I guess it comes from recent experience... I can't say if I've discovered something awesome, if I'm just finding out something everyone else has always known, or if I have some disorder that I should see a specialist about. What I do know is that I find myself in different sorts of physical/mental spaces when I'm playing. Sometimes I'll be out of control, completely on autopilot, with what seems like little say on the goings-on of the moment. Other times, it's like I'm making plans, but the actual execution is a conditioned response. Still other times, I'm completely involved in the moment, actively and physically contributing to every key press, every slight nuance of the embouchre, all as an immediate experience of the moment.
A bit hard to describe, and I've been trying to figure it all out myself lately. It does seem very closely related to how much I treat playing like something I'm physically involved in the immediate workings of, rather than something I've practiced and conditioned myself into regurgitating. I will say that, in that space, the music I make is a hell of a lot better.
-Alex
www.mostlydifferent.com
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Author: EEBaum
Date: 2011-12-24 07:44
Another angle of physicality, too, is to expand out of your comfort zone and maximize your capabilities on purely physical elements of performing.
I've found myself, in moments of need, able to dig deep. I'll get another 5 seconds of breath on a note, I'll tongue 16ths at 20bpm faster than normal, or I'll find that I have a dynamic level beyond my usual loudest. But it will take an occasion that necessitates it to get there. Accessing and expanding those limits is worth investigating. You should be able to dig deep every time, not only when it's thrust upon you by surprise.
-Alex
www.mostlydifferent.com
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Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2011-12-24 10:40
You say:
"Extra attention to exercises that counteract problems typically brought about by clarinet playing."
Ok, there are physical aspects to playing the instrument, granted. Perhaps it might help to hear an anecdote of a great player with a student getting more and more frustrated with the teacher's insistence on being more relaxed when playing. The student finally shot back, "So you want me to play as if I didn't care ??" To which the teacher answered, "Exactly !!"
There may be WAY more physicality involved if the player is mistakenly placing isometric tension in all the areas were you CAN put tension while sitting and playing the clarinet: neck muscles, jaw muscles, shoulder muscles, arm muscles, finger muscles, muscles in the legs, feet toes.......... EVERYWHERE. And by tension I mean the kind of tension one might see from a two year old having a 'fit,' tensing up their entire little body - BAD tension.
As far as I see it, the only constant muscle engagement that happens throughout playing should be the lip muscles forming the embouchure with EVERYTHING else being relaxed (relaxed as in NOT crazy, isometrically tensed that is..........I always get so much grief from Tony Pay on this one).
Of course I have seen documentaries of the great piano competitions where the students are hammering away at their pieces for ten hours or more per day which IS extremely physical (with some students actually doing physical damage to their fingers and wrists). I just don't see clarinetists having to place their bodies under enough stress to warrant any particular physical preparedness. Quite frankly I see that sort of attention just taking time away from my practice.
.....................Paul Aviles
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Author: EEBaum
Date: 2011-12-24 15:39
Paul:
You're equating physical involvement with tension and assuming I would advocate things that I would not, such as isometrics while playing. I know it's easy to conjure up images of training montages from films where a character is doing all sorts of crazy things while performing their sport, activity, or whatever, but that's not what I'm going for... that's what I would describe as gimmicky.
What I'm aiming for is a more effective use of the body when it's called for. Improvement of reflexes. Freedom of motion. Postural correction. Ability to physically "bring it" when necessary. Relaxation through treating the body as an ally, not an adversary.
Check out an athlete as they're about to sprint. They're at alert, at the ready to go full blast, focused. At the same time, they're not tensing up every muscle in their body, rather they're loose and relaxed. Then they bring it, then they relax afterwards.
Playing like you don't care is a step toward relaxation, and can be helpful especially for particularly tense performers. However, it can also lead to *sounding* like you don't care, creating a disconnect where you can only play effectively when you don't care. I was in this space for years, and it was a huge barrier to me musically (I could either care and screw up, or not care and sound blah). Embracing the physical process of playing the clarinet has been effective for me in breaking through that, to where an opportunity to play music is an adventure to delight in head-on.
-Alex
www.mostlydifferent.com
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Author: Bob Phillips
Date: 2011-12-24 16:06
At the root of this issue is the recognition that playing (and singing) is athletic. Quick, precise, perfectly timed muscle coordination is required. Complete control (for us windies and singers) of breathing.
"Grooved in" or "myelinated" habituation to "automate" basic athletic moves are required.
The ability to react to "the play" you are involved in at the minute --to nuance a "standardized" gesture.
And cardio-vascular endurance.
I've still got (at my age) that endorphin problem and put up a couple thousand aerobic points a week on Nordic skis, bike or kayak. BUT my focused athletic teacher --who's training is focused on his clarinet playing has better breath control than I. HE can play the Bach Cello suites without being brought to his knees or gasping for a "gap in the bowing."
I'd say that his clarinet athleticism is more focused, and his training more successful than mine.
Bob Phillips
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Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2011-12-24 16:51
Well, I don't wish to imply that you are doing the 'wrong things,' I'm only warning against them (for those following along).
Bob's comment, "quick, precise, myelinated" serve to bring us to a point where we may converge on this topic. I am a strong proponent of reading "The Inner Game Of Tennis" by Gallwey. Which is something that may fall under pre-audition ritual - a topic of another current thread.
...............Paul Aviles
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Author: Bob Phillips
Date: 2011-12-24 20:12
I was troubled by the implication, recently encountered, that I' might not become virtuosic (if not virtuous) in Malcolm Gladwell's "Outliers" 10,000 hours of practice.
Since that low point, I've read "The Talent Code," and restored my hope. The latter is out on "inter-friend" loan, so you're on your own to find the author...
Recommended reading. It shows the cerebral correlation between musicianship and athleticism.
Bob Phillips
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Author: sdr
Date: 2011-12-24 20:15
Perhaps martial arts training is a better comparison --- tai ch'i (an "internal form" of martial arts training) is not about strength and endurance in the usual brute force sense, but focus, relaxation, mental clarity, receptive awareness, and application of energy only when and where it will have the desired and greatest effect. I find these capacities directly applicable to making music.
-sdr
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Author: Buster
Date: 2011-12-24 21:12
I don't have much too time today to write..
But if an exercises away from the clarinet are to be of any substance, some knowledge of physiology is needed.
Much of the precise motions we need are controlled by opposing groups of muscles, sometimes quite small muscles at that.
-Abs/diaphragm for breath support.
-Flexors/extensors in the fingers/hands/forearms used for precise finger motion and control.
-The opposed muscles groups in the embouchure are too numerous to coherently describe.
These are just a few examples of the relationships that need be considered.
Alex, I think I understand what you mean by being in the moment physically in part, but it is a bit contradictory by nature.
We learn "grooved" motions and strengthen neural pathways in our motor system, which can lie in the "auto-pilot" sphere; some of that is necessary. What is also necessary is the ability to adapt our small motor functions for anything that may arise in the time of actual performance- or the ability to veer away from those deeply engrained acts. For me that lies outside the realm of auto-pilot completely. A balance must be struck of engrained motion with the ability to change it at a moment's notice. Often these small changes are made without actually knowing the full extent of the physiological act involved- our bodies are extremely complex.
*This is being in the moment for me, both physically in my total address to the instrument, but also in incorporating that into the musical collaboration/conversation that I am part of. Small quick "adjustments" to the physical approach must be made according to the environment I am in, and any changes to that environment that occur. Again-balance.
As for pure exercise, or quantification of this, I am at a bit of a loss for explanation. Much of what we do relies on application in a setting outside of the "laboratory", in a true musical setting. Thus, the reason why I don't view "fundamentals" to be a separate entity from the "musicality" side; it is some sort of false-dichotomy in my mind. I do not practice, nor attempt to teach, in this manner of separation.
I am not attempting to dodge the question and will think more in-depth about it, but that is all I can muster right now.
Happy HoliHannuKwanzMas...... and Festivus for the rest of us.
-Jason
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Author: Buster
Date: 2011-12-24 21:57
Alex,
I had one more quick thought.
You stated that an athlete ready to sprint is "loose and relaxed" and then "they bring it."
Quite the opposite, a sprinter is not completely relaxed, nor tense, but is flexing the proper muscles to put them physically at the ready; and they place their minds at the ready to activate other muscles groups when the gun sounds.
For examples of actual muscular activation pre-gun watch some runners whom lose their balance, often resulting in a false-start. It is not always a mental miss-cue when that occurs. Losing the balanced flexion of muscles groups can be the root cause also.
If that is the relaxed-GO-relaxed state you seek in clarinet playin', then I think you are trying to find something which does not exist.
As I said, I ran track. 52 in the 400m is in no way world-class, but is moving at a fair clip for a non-elite type sprinter.
Just my 2 cents. or sense.
-J
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Author: EEBaum
Date: 2011-12-24 22:43
Buster:
"Quite the opposite, a sprinter is not completely relaxed, nor tense, but is flexing the proper muscles to put them physically at the ready; and they place their minds at the ready to activate other muscles groups when the gun sounds. "
I like that description. And I think that's what I'm aiming for in the physicality aspect. A sense of being "at the ready", as opposed to a relaxed-tense-relaxed-tense cycle that I often see (and have been guilty of myself) while performing.
"If that is the relaxed-GO-relaxed state you seek in clarinet playin', then I think you are trying to find something which does not exist."
But that's what I've been experiencing lately, or at least something in its vicinity that feels like a close parallel. It's been incredibly liberating, and it's what sparked this topic.
I realize the body is far to complex to control (or even WANT to control) all the physical intricacies that happen while playing the clarinet, and that a significant measure of conditioning is required. In my experience, though, an acknowledgement and encouragement of these processes is invaluable. It is, I suppose, a quest for a more actively guided autopilot, one that takes care of the minutiae but allows for an integrated steering of the process. For me, this is something that occurs when I keep myself physically involved in the process, refusing to allow the disconnect to form between what I've practiced and how I want it to go at the moment.
I'm torn as to whether actual athletic training is effective to apply directly, or just "a good idea" for the benefits conferred by being in good physical shape. What interests me greatly, though, is the application of an athletic mindset/framework for practicing and performing. As it stands, I'll often see practice approached in much the same way someone memorizes facts for a quiz. The instrument is almost always practiced as an intellectual and artistic exercise with a happenstance physical component, and it's that approach that I'm interested in challenging.
-Alex
www.mostlydifferent.com
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Author: EEBaum
Date: 2011-12-24 22:55
sdr:
That analogy makes good sense. And, really, I think there won't be a perfect analogy because it's a different kind of endeavor to sports and martial arts and such (as far as martial arts go, perhaps Capoeira is closest?)
My concern is that I typically see the physical aspect of clarinet playing as something that must be beaten into submission, an obstacle to get out of the way so you can make your music, rather than something to embrace. That's the disconnect I find between playing an instrument and playing football or sparring Brazilian Jiu Jitsu or sprinting. They all celebrate the athletic aspect, while on clarinet it feels like we try to overcome it. Any physical attention typically comes about only to solve problems or prevent further problems from happening. If you could just "think" a piece and it would happen perfectly, exactly as you planned, in autopilot, you'd probably do it, but a sprint has no parallel--it's all about what you actually do, not just what you intend to do.
-Alex
www.mostlydifferent.com
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