 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: oca
Date: 2011-12-11 23:12
I think C clarinets are brilliant! Having played in Bb all my life, I feel inferior to C instruments as their pitch are the concert pitches. A two step flat ear is too muh of a con to outweigh the "same fingerings throughout the instrument family" pro.
I have even gone to reteach myself the fingerings e.g. the C on the clarinet would be changed to the D fingering so I would have to buy a new instrument just to be in the same key as the concert instruments.
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Author: Ralph Katz
Date: 2011-12-12 00:25
A C clarinet can be a very handy thing to have. Even if you can transpose in your head, there will be times you may be better off not having to do this.
On the other hand, the is sound much, much brighter than a Bb, although not so much as a Eb.
Caveat Emptor: Intonation may be questionable, for for any maker, no matter how good their Bb's are. If you are playing a professional Bb instrument, you must verify intonation on your choices carefully. Make sure they play in tune throughout the entire range, with your mouthpiece, as many will not. Much the same as some Eb's, intonation in the altissimo register may only be accomplished on some C's with alternate fingerings and a lot of lip.
Suggestions:
- If you have a hefty budget, want a super instrument, and can wait, consider the Stephen Fox.
- In the middle price range would be a Buffet E11C, but you will need to have Morrie Backun "work his mojo" on it.
- And if your budget is more modest, consider Tom Ridenour's C instrument.
This information is *not* up-to-date:
http://ralphkatz.pbworks.com/CClarinets
Post Edited (2011-12-12 00:27)
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Author: Trevor M
Date: 2011-12-12 00:26
If you can afford one, I say get one. They have a slightly more nasal character than the Bb and are – like harp guitars and mandocellos and alto trombones – experiencing a happy revival. The ones being made currently are better than those previously available, which were usually stuffy and full of intonation problems. Good ones go for about %40 more than a comparable Bb, and will involve you in arguments about mouthpieces. I recommend you purchase one, tire of it, and then sell it to me at a fair price.
Ralph: could you elaborate on the Backun 'magic'-ization of the E11? That might be just what I'm looking for.
Post Edited (2011-12-12 00:28)
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Author: JJAlbrecht
Date: 2011-12-12 00:39
You can *play* any music you want on a Bb, no matter what instrument it was written for, IF you are playing unaccompanied. Transposition only becomes an issue when you would play with other instruments.
A friend recently purchased aC E11 and is quite happy with it. Ihave also heard very nice thing sabout the Lyrique. It all depends what you want and howmuch cash you have on hand.
Jeff
“Everyone discovers their own way of destroying themselves, and some people choose the clarinet.” Kalman Opperman, 1919-2010
"A drummer is a musician's best friend."
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Author: Gregory Smith ★2017
Date: 2011-12-12 00:57
(the usual disclaimers)
That's funny. I have a Buffet R13 pitched in C, serviced by Brannen Woodwinds and fitted with a properly customized Chadash C barrel with a regular Bb mouthpiece. I've played it so many times in the CSO I've lost track.
It's relatively easy to play in tune and without sounding that terribly much different than the Buffet R13 Bb. All I have to do is perhaps add the R.H. fork key for a slightly lowish altissimo note now and then but that's about it.
Beginning to wonder why there seems to be so many problems with C clarinets continually discussed in threads here unless there's a disproportionately high number of poorly made C's due to ?
Gregory Smith
http://gregory-smith.com
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Author: davyd
Date: 2011-12-12 01:28
You might go the secondhand route. But you have to be careful.
I have a C clarinet of unknown vintage (I'm informed that it might be a Selmer) that I bought secondhand many years ago. Intonation and tone are OK. But it always seems to be having mechanical problems: keys going out of adjustment, pads not closing properly, etc. So it's not reliable enough to use all that often.
The mouthpiece that came with it, a Buffet with a C at the bottom, takes German cut reeds.
Bohemian Rhapsody on clarinet ... I'll have to ponder that one.
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Author: Trevor M
Date: 2011-12-12 01:53
Greg said: "Beginning to wonder why there seems to be so many problems with C clarinets continually discussed in threads here unless there's a disproportionately high number of poorly made C's due to ? "
All the Cs I've gotten to play (maybe, like, four of them?) have been like 'the village bicycle', and freely loaned around to those in need for pieces like the Strauss wind symphony. They were all older specimens and played pretty badly, but I imagine part of that is that they were never really maintained properly. Maybe others have had similar experiences, leading to a dim opinion of all Cs?
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Author: bethmhil
Date: 2011-12-12 02:54
I second what davyd said, but you must be careful... much more careful than when buying a Bb clarinet secondhand. Because C clarinets are not nearly as common as Bb clarinets, they aren't always as well made, and if they are, they're pretty expensive for what you're getting.
I was lucky enough to find an unmarked plastic one a few years ago at a flea market for $15... pads completely intact, nothing broken (besides the barrel in 3 pieces), but keywork bent and completely out of adjustment. I don't know if I'll ever be able to get it working. It's playable, but intonation is still ridiculously bad and the tone is rather wonky. I was considering using it for orchestra for the Mozart Requiem this next spring, but not so sure now...
BMH
Illinois State University, BME and BM Performance
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Author: Gregory Smith ★2017
Date: 2011-12-12 03:51
I think that if you start with a decent instrument and then have it properly adjusted/serviced, dispense with the factory barrel (which is what I did) and have one made that is the proper length and inside dimensions, put your regular mthpc in place (you can't be changing mthpc/reeds on the same piece), there shouldn't be a problem.
That's UNLESS they (Buffet, etc.) have already begun sending the proper barrel with their instruments already.
The barrel that came with the instrument I have is what probably put off a decade worth of clarinetists who assumed that it was hopelessly out of tune. Perhaps Buffet at the time WAS really making a barrel for the smaller C clarinet mthpc.
I remember calling up Weiner Music when we were on tour in NYC asking if he had any C's in stock. At first he said no. But then he hesitated a moment and said he had a couple 10 year old Buffet R13's that were virtually worthless sitting out in a warehouse and asked if I wanted to see what the heck was wrong with them.
They were brought to the main store to try and because they played so flat, I could tell immediately that the barrels were way too long and big inside. After getting Chadash to make me a barrel to compensate for my Bb mouthpiece, they both played beautifully!
I could tell that with the usual job that the Brannens do servicing them that they would be very fine instruments to have in the orchestra - which they indeed have been. (My wife is a clarinetist and we have played 1st and 2nd clarinet with these two instruments in several CSO concerts).
Gregory Smith
http://gregory-smith.com
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Author: Wes
Date: 2011-12-12 05:19
A Marcel Deleau C clarinet that I have plays well in tune and sounds a lot like my R13 Buffet. I use an old stock ML M3 mouthpiece on it. It is a stencil instrument originally sold by Baxter Northrup in Los Angeles from a French maker. The late great Glen Johnston overhauled and tuned it many years ago, drilling a hole in the bell. A Chadash barrel might be very good for it. Yet, I have little use for it as when I need to play C parts, it is at home and not available.
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Author: Ralph Katz
Date: 2011-12-12 21:36
Mr. Smith,
Well, that is cool information, but should we have to commission a custom barrel for a professional-level instrument? The biggest problem is that the manufacturers never tell you what mouthpiece they had in mind when they arrived at their acoustic design. Visiting Guy Chadash is pretty simple, but not convenient for lots of us.
Regards,
Ralph
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Author: Gregory Smith ★2017
Date: 2011-12-13 00:24
Ralph -
Actually, if you just call Guy and describe what you have, he'll probably be able to make a barrel for you. He's one of the finest acousticians I've known over the years.
Each manufacturer has their own small group of testers whom they rely on.
Buffet also works closely with Vandoren mthpcs. I know that most all the testers for Buffet play Vandoren. Vandoren B44 Eb mthpcs are included with every new Eb clarinet. At one time Buffet even contemplated providing a credit slip in place of their own mthpc toward the purchase of a new Vandoren mouthpiece.
Selmer has their own testers and line of mouthpieces which I assume they design clarinets around but they have to also take into account Vandoren mthpcs because they are as ubiquitous as KFC's.
What those testers use for mthpc/reed combinations is truly anyone's guess, but for continuity's sake I imagine they keep scrupulously close records to keep track from whence they came.
There's an added benefit for both the manufacturer and the player to custom fit (as much as possible via standard manufacturing) accessories like barrels which prove to be such important components.
As far as I've been able to discern, the standard barrels that come with professional level line-manufactured clarinets are about as useful as the mouthpiece they provide with their logo stamped on it. Hence the huge aftermarket for everything except perhaps the body of the instrument itself.
There is one exception that I'm aware of and that is Buffet who includes two differing barrels for particular types/models of their clarinets. Perhaps other manufacturers are beginning to do the same.
Gregory Smith
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Author: DaveF
Date: 2011-12-13 06:29
I bought a Forte C clarinet a few years ago, from the Doctors Products. It played fairly well, but after an overhaul job by Morrie Backun, it's now so easy to play, and decently in tune. I ended up liking the stock barrel and bell, keeping them over ones Morrie had made for it.
David
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Author: Lelia Loban ★2017
Date: 2011-12-13 12:31
davyd wrote,
>>I have a C clarinet of unknown vintage (I'm informed that it might be a Selmer) that I bought secondhand many years ago.
and
>>The mouthpiece that came with it, a Buffet with a C at the bottom, takes German cut reeds. >>
Then Beth Huldenbrand wrote,
>I was lucky enough to find an unmarked plastic one a few years ago at a flea market for $15... pads completely intact, nothing broken (besides the barrel in 3 pieces), but keywork bent and completely out of adjustment. >
Interesting, because I think I've seen other messages in the past about plastic clarinets in C that have no maker's mark on them. Does anybody know anything definite about these?
Usually I see the lack of a brand name as a big red flag that probably means an instrument is a "marriage" of parts from different instruments, possibly from different eras and/or different makers who put the company logos on different sections (meaning the "marriage" just happens to be made up of parts without company names on them). Such an instrument probably never will play in tune. But this past Sunday, at a flea market, I broke my own rule and bought an unmarked clarinet in C. Except for the corks and pads, which have gone brittle with age, it's in excellent condition, though some plate wear on the forged brass, nickel-plated keys shows it's been played a lot. A previous owner took good care of it and kept it clean. That's unusual for a flea market clarinet.
Davyd's comment especially interests me because he wonders whether his clarinet is a Selmer. Aha! -- almost everything about the one I bought screams Selmer, specifically Bundy. The keywork and the contours of the tenon bands exactly match those on my Selmer Signet Special and Bundy B-flat clarinets, except for the fact that the clarinet in C has is no metal band around the bottom of the bell. It's possible that bell is a replacement, as the plastic is a very slightly more brownish shade of black than the rest of the clarinet, though the tenon band and the bore diameter match perfectly. The case, which stores the instrument assembled except for the mouthpuece, is identical to some that Selmer was selling in the 1930s and 1940s (I have Selmer catalogues and other instruments from the period), and the serial number, the only marking of any kind on this instrument, is a 1934 Selmer number -- though the number could mean nothing if this was a stencil horn, made for music stores, that for some reason never got stencilled.
Without that number, I'd have guessed this clarinet dates more recently than 1934. The 1935 Selmer catalogue I've got doesn't list any plastic clarinets in C at all -- and every clarinet in there has the upper key stack and the lower key stack in separate sections, with the conventional center joint, while the clarinet I bought has both key stacks on one section. That's a big reason I bought the instrument, because I've found that putting all the keys on one section improves intonation.
Davyd's comment about the Buffet mouthpiece also interests me, because the instrument I bought came with a hard rubber Selmer HS** mouthpiece that will require German-type reeds (after I replace the corks and pads). I'm curious to try this clarinet out.
Lelia
http://www.scoreexchange.com/profiles/Lelia_Loban
To hear the audio, click on the "Scorch Plug-In" box above the score.
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Author: William
Date: 2011-12-13 18:07
I have a Buffet E11 that plays very nicely with a Chadash barrel and my Chicago Kaspar mpc. It was the best of five I auditioned at the old IMS store in Evanston.
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Author: JamesOrlandoGarcia
Date: 2012-02-09 18:37
Tom Ridenour's Lyrique C clarinet would be one to try. I've heard that they most consistent C clarinets ever made and they are half to a third of the price of some other C's on the market that I can promise you will have consistency issues the Lyrique will not. Here is a link:
http://www.ridenourclarinetproducts.com/ACclarpg.html
James Garcia
Bass Clarinet/Clarinet III, Des Moines Symphony Orchestra
Post Edited (2013-02-12 07:28)
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Author: davyd
Date: 2012-02-09 19:37
@Lelia: there's no cereal number on my C-fer. Someone must have put milk on it an eaten it. Seriously: looking at it under a bright lamp with a magnifying glass, I can almost make out what might be 6224 at the bottom of each of the two main sections. I'm currently using it to cover an oboe part in Royal Fireworks Music, and so far, it's cooperating.
One thing that's unusual (at least to me) about this C's keywork: the hole for the left ring finger has a ring around it. Closing this hole also closes the pad between the holes for the left index and middle fingers. I've never figured out exactly what result that has.
I wish there was such a thing as a bass clarinet in C. It would come in handy when there are only concert-pitch parts to be had and the player isn't a great transposer.
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Author: gsurosey
Date: 2012-02-09 21:02
The ring allows you to play Eb/Bb with a fork fingering (LH 1 and 3 plus thumb and register as needed). I used to play a Buffet A clarinet that had that feature; it also had the larger LH 2 donut key.
Mmm, donuts...
----------
Rachel
Clarinet Stash:
Bb/A: Buffet R13
Eb: Bundy
Bass: Royal Global Max
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Author: Tom Puwalski
Date: 2012-02-09 21:06
The Buffet E 11 C is the best C out there right now. It plays better than the RC prestige that I had. Both Cs were "Backunized" and they both had backun Bells and barrels, both shorter than the ones that came with the instruments. As I don't really use my C for klezmer concerts that much anymore. I've decided that I would forgo the Fox C and and get a Taragoto instead.
Tom Puwalski
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Author: Barry Vincent
Date: 2012-02-10 01:17
An interesting comment in Anthony Baines "Woodwind Instruments and Their History" Page 119 (The Clarinet) that states :- "The reasons for abandoning the C. apart from the fact that it is comparatively seldom demanded, were firstly that its tone lacks the dignified mellowness of the Bb, being in comparison hard and chirping; and secondly that it needs a different mouthpiece, since its bore is over a millimetre smaller".
Is this the reason why so many have problems with intonation of the C Clarinet, in that they are playing this type of Clarinet with the wrong mouthpiece.
The correct mouthpiece would be smaller than the Bb and therefore would also need a special smaller reed as well.
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Author: Carol Dutcher
Date: 2012-02-10 01:34
I have a Noblet which I bought new about five years ago. It plays like a dream. No problems there.
Carol
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Author: Caroline Smale
Date: 2012-02-10 21:12
Barry, I believe all modern French C clarinets have bores vitually identical to their Bb counterparts. I have a Noblet C about 25 years old and that certainly has a Bb bore and uses a standard mouthpiece.
I understand that German system C clarinets do have a smaller bore and need a separate mouthpiece.
I think the intonation problems stem from the same issues as the Ebs problem only not as severe.
An additional factor is probably that as a very small volume seller there has never been the effort put in by manufacturers to research and ameliorate these intonation issues.
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Author: dgclarinet
Date: 2012-03-01 00:40
After reading this thread a while back, I ordered a C barrel from Guy Chadash. He sent it about as quick as I could get the money up to him. The barrel totally changed my E11 C clarinet. Before, the tuning was so bad that I had never really played it with anyone else, but with the Chadash barrel, there are only a couple of notes that need a little tug. For a cheap Ebay C clarinet, the thing plays darn well now.
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