 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: Tony M
Date: 2011-12-01 23:51
This is a spin off from the jazz clarinet thread because, although it is related, I think it is sufficiently different to warrant a different header.
Notwithstanding the problems of calling a mouthpiece a jazz mpc, one of the features, at least from manufacturers, that jazz mpcs seem to display is a wider opening. Is this what makes a mpc more free blowing? My concern is that I often get frustrated with a difficulty in making loud vibrant tones when just the day before I might have been blowing my head off with ease. And as a remedy to that I'm getting drawn towards mpcs with a larger opening on the (possibly misguided) belief that that will give me a more free blowing set up.
So I'm asking for advice on what does give a more free blowing feel. My current set up is a Hite Premier mpc with a Vandoren V12 reed, #3, and a Vandoren M/O ligature on a Yamaha YCL-62. I like to play jazz standards and popular melodies with forays into guidetone based blues.
I nearly bought a Pomarico Jazz** mpc last night, would that be a stroll in the right direction?
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Author: Bob Phillips
Date: 2011-12-02 03:07
Tony,
The first thing that occurs to me is that, perhaps, from day-to-day, you are not taking the same amount of mouthpiece into your mouth.
I just had this problem come back to bite me. I was fiddling with my tonguing for a couple of weeks. Improved my tonguing --in part by shifting the mouthpiece, but killed my tone quality.
My teacher suggested taking a bigger "chonk" of mpc. I was surprised to find that I had barely any reed working for me --I was pinching off most of it.
I did the trick I learned here of playing an open G and taking more and more mouthpiece until I squeaked. Doing that, I was surprised at how little reed I had and how far I'd pulled the mouthpiece out trying to get easier access to the tip of the reed.
Anyhow, its a simple thing to check.
Bob Phillips
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Author: Trevor M
Date: 2011-12-02 05:27
I don't know if any classical mouthpiece is going to make it clear how free-blowing a mouthpiece can be: have you tried a White Diamond by Beechler? All the Mexican brass band guys around here love 'em... you need a really soft read to get any sound out of them but then they're ungodly loud and the resistance feels totally different from any other 'respectable' mouthpiece I've tried. They're way, way too raucous for anything I'd ever play, but I do recommend trying one, just for the experience. (They might make super trad-jazz mouthpieces, too.)
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Author: Bob Bernardo
Date: 2011-12-02 06:45
Tony M -one of the features, at least from manufacturers, that jazz mpcs seem to display is a wider opening.
There's plenty more to the design of a jazz mouthpiece, besides the tip opening. The baffle is perhaps the second adjustment needed.
Reeds are almost really soft. I'm not wild about the sounds, but some of those players have the fastest finger techniques. It's really fun to see them play.
Designer of - Vintage 1940 Cicero Mouthpieces and the La Vecchia mouthpieces
Yamaha Artist 2015
Post Edited (2011-12-02 07:43)
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Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2011-12-02 11:18
I think 'free blowing' is a term that may be loaded with too many conotations these days to be helpful. In terms of the more open mouthpieces with weaker reeds vs. smaller tip opennings and harder reeds, one finds that (from a CLASSICAL MUSIC STANDPOINT) there is more control and focus with the smaller openning. The down side is that you are much more subject to the quality of the reed. A more open mouthpiece gives your more variety in tone color (and even pitch) and allows a wider quality of reed to work, BUT you are as a matter of course less focused in sound.
I have found 'free blowing' and 'resistant' set ups on both ends of the spectrum. For me 'free blowing' also entails how quickly you get a sure footed attack. Response is EVERYTHING.
...........Paul Aviles
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Author: Tony M
Date: 2011-12-02 23:56
Paul wrote "For me 'free blowing' also entails how quickly you get a sure footed attack." and I think that expresses things much better than the notion of open. I'm still looking for a mpc/reed combo that will assist in this.
Bob - your tip about taking more mpc in the mouth certainly assisted. I have become conscious of where the patch on the top touchs my lip and that is helping with becoming more sesnitive to the amount of mpc in my mouth.
Thanks for the replies so far. Still wondering about more a open mpc and the Pomarico Jazz.
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Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2011-12-03 04:04
Two more things:
I often quote Tom Puwolski about determining the best spot to place the mouthpiece, which is to play an open "G" starting with less mouthpiece in your mouth and continually adding mouthpiece until it "SQUAWKS." Back off slightly from this point and this will be THE spot on your mouthpiece (with the way you form your embouchure) to place your teeth.
I say this because many posts seem to imply that the mouthpiece placement is arbitrary at best or at worst imply that it is always better further into the mouth. Telling someone to just take in more mouthpiece arbitrarily could be absolutely wrong. Of course I you CAN get sound with too little mouthpiece (for the lay) and more insertion will help that certainly, so.......... I can see why it isn't necessarily bad advice, just that you NEED to know why.
The other thing worth mentioning (from my standpoint anyway) is that mouthpieces with thinner rails (both side rails and particularly the tip rail) will respond quicker than if the very same mouthpiece had thicker rails.
..................Paul Aviles
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Author: Tony M
Date: 2011-12-03 04:24
Thanks, Paul. I've been following the 'open G to squawking' advice and feeling better about the sound. The advice about rails is welcome but that isn't information that is readily available when reading specs online, unfortunately. At present I'm hunting down a Pomarico Jazz** and a Yamaha YAC-1208 mpc. the first is easy to get, the second not so easy to find.
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Author: Ursa
Date: 2011-12-03 09:02
Tony, I have a YAC-1208 and think they are well worth the trouble to find. They are open and free-blowing, yet retain much of the refined tone and dependable control of a more classical mouthpiece. For jazz and big band situations, the YAC-1208 works very well for me. I usually go with a Lurie 2.5 reed and plain old 2-screw metal ligature on this piece.
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Author: Tony M
Date: 2011-12-03 11:33
Ursa, thanks for the tip (no pun intended). That seems to be a holy grail, free-blowing and dependable control. I started lookng for a Yamaha YAC-1208 because of your earlier post. So, double thanks.
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Author: Buster
Date: 2011-12-04 05:27
Tony M. and Paul
I apologize for my "candor" in the/a previous thread. It was misguided and made for an environment that could lead nowhere.
Tony,
take care with the Pomarico Jazz..... or at least make sure that you have many at hand to choose from. Crystals are by nature quite inconsistent; and they are tricky to put a facing on. Some you try could be quite free-blowing, and others quite stuffy.
That being said, if you do find one that is 'just right' they can be quite good.
As others mentioned, much more than the tip opening/curve length will determine how free-blowing a 'piece will be. Window size, in addition to rail thickness has a large effect on the feel of "free-blowing."
Many current Pomaricos I've seen (I have not tried the jazz as it is far too open for me, even for jazz work) have mis-shapened windows that are very inconsistent from mouthpiece to mouthpiece. Also, the baffle right behind the tip is quite high and can "choke off" the air for lack of a better term if improperly shaped.
(A re-did a G.G. (early Pomarico) that turned out quite well, but it took far too much work using very fine diamond abrasives trying to fix all the "errors." But it did show me where the Pomaricos can err.) So simply tread with caution.
Someone earlier mentioned Beechler mouthpieces. I lived in Mexico for 5 years and tried that set-up first hand. It is simply a tip opening so big you can park a Cadillac in it (think 1.40 or more) with a #2 Rico Plasticover. You bite the $%^& out of it and blow your brains out. Makes all lot of sound, but the quality.............well search 'banda sinaloense' on YouTube and I'll leave the judgement up to you.
-Jason
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Author: ww.player
Date: 2011-12-04 14:06
Tony M, if you're using a 3 on a Hite Premier, you may not be ready to control a jazz mouthpiece quite yet. FWIW, I have found the old Brilhart Ebolin 3*'s to be excellent mouthpieces for jazz while still having the playability of an open classical mouthpiece. Personally, for jazz, I just use my classical set up with a different reed and it works just fine, but I'm already playing a more open mouthpiece (14) than you are.
Free blowing can mean different things to different people because there are two related factors that affect it, the amount of air a mouthpiece can take and the amount of resistance. Most people generally think a bigger tip opening is freer blowing because it will take more air, but some will say it's less free blowing because it takes more effort to get the same amount sound with the same reed, all other things being equal. The amount of resistance is mainly affected by tip rail thickness, facing length, reed strength and cut, baffle height behind the tip, and mouthpiece chamber/horn bore size and shape. Yes, it's complicated, which is one reason why you just have to try a lot of different set ups to see what works for you.
I'm not sure I necessarily agree that bigger tip openings get a less focused sound. Bigger tip openings get a bigger, fuller sound. Focus is much more affected by tip rail thickness, facing length, baffle, and chamber design. I do agree that a bigger unfocused tone sounds more unfocused than a smaller one. However, one example to back up my point would be jazz mouthpieces. They generally have larger tip openings and yet most have a much more focused sound than classical mouthpieces.
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Author: Tony M
Date: 2011-12-04 18:32
Thank you Jason and thank you ww.player. I'm learning a lot from this thread. And I'm trying to assimilate all the information as it comes in.
ww.player, I am confused (only confused, certainly not in disaggreement) with your statement "if you're using a 3 on a Hite Premier, you may not be ready to control a jazz mouthpiece quite yet." Can you explain your deduction here so that I can work out when I will be ready to control a jazz mouthpiece, please?
Post Edited (2011-12-04 20:55)
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Author: tictactux ★2017
Date: 2011-12-04 19:43
> if you're using a 3 on a Hite Premier, you may not be ready to
> control a jazz mouthpiece quite yet.
That's as generalising a statement as to claim that if you happened to drive an Austin Metro you might not be ready to "control" a Triumph Spitfire.
I mean, some day one simply has to try out what it is all about. No use to make big voodoo about it.
--
Ben
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Author: ww.player
Date: 2011-12-04 20:36
Exactly, tictactux. Because jazz mouthpieces are more open and designed to play louder and brighter, they are harder to control and there is generally a smaller margin for error. The embouchure has to be strong yet flexible and air stream has to be very dynamic and consistent. Otherwise, you'll find yourself with serious intonation issues and possibly the occasional squeak.
Your current set up is just at the opposite end of the spectrum from a typical jazz one so you will probably need to make some adjustments at first. You'll never know until you try, though.
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Author: Tony M
Date: 2011-12-04 21:03
Again, I'm trying to get some clarity here. My apologies for not catching on quicker than this. I hadn't thought of my set up as at the end of any spectrum. I would have thought that a very closed mpc with a very hard reed would be at the opposite end of the spectrum to a jazz set up (as I would have understood it). I would have thought a Vandoren V12 #3 on a Hite Premier would been very middle of the road. What am I missing here?
When you say "Because jazz mouthpieces are more open and designed to play louder and brighter, they are harder to control and there is generally a smaller margin for error. The embouchure has to be strong yet flexible and air stream has to be very dynamic and consistent. Otherwise, you'll find yourself with serious intonation issues and possibly the occasional squeak." That is very clear. But I'm failing to see what you are saying through the spectrum analogy.
Apologies for needing clarification but this is very interesting to me.
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Author: tictactux ★2017
Date: 2011-12-04 21:44
Tony M wrote:
> I hadn't thought of my set up as at the end of any spectrum. (...)
> I would have thought a Vandoren V12 #3 on a Hite Premier would
> been very middle of the road. What am I missing here?
I wouldn't know. Yours is quite an average setup, good for weddings and funerals alike, even for Jazz and "legit" music.
Don't be intimidated by the material battle before your eyes. Your sound starts behind them, not in front of you.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JjS2iCb3qsc
--
Ben
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Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2011-12-05 01:24
I don't really know of ANY Hite mouthpieces that have a particularly OPEN tip, since that was not what his approach to making mouthpieces was all about. So perhaps I too would say that the Premiere is on the more close end ...... once you get to a B45, you are looking at a more open set up.
That said I would caution that this 'can be' a slippery slope. Once you get used to a more open mouthpiece it is a bit harder to go DOWN in tip size opening (while being much easier to go UP in size). Just be sure that is what you want.
Caveat: I speak from a 'classical music discipline' side of the house.
.....................Paul Aviles
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Author: ww.player
Date: 2011-12-05 02:46
The Hite Premier is a medium to medium close tip mouthpiece, around 1.05 if I remember correctly, with a medium length facing. Most jazz mouthpieces have very open tips with longer facings. This means you will need to take more mouthpiece, exert more embouchure pressure (without biting), and blow more air. On top of this, the thinner tip rail and higher baffle excite the reed more, making it harder to control.
It's a major change, but one that some people can make easily. Like I said, you will never know until you try.
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Author: Tony M
Date: 2012-01-06 06:08
Just reviving this to thank Ursa. I finally got a YAC-1208 Yamaha 3 mouthpiece today and it is just as you described. It is very free blowing but remains quite focussed. It's just what I was looking for so thank you very much for the advice.
I tried it with a Legere Signature but it still doesn't do it for me. I wish I could get the tone out of Legere but, now the mouthpiece issue is settled, I'm happy to stay with cane. (Rico Reserve and Vandoren M/O ligature)
Thanks, Ursa, for the solid advice.
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Author: Ursa
Date: 2012-01-06 09:23
Glad to be of assistance, Tony M! I've also tried to get Legeres to work with this mouthpiece without success.
I'm now tempted to audition a Vandoren M/O ligature on my YAC-1208. What finish is your M/O?
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Author: Tony M
Date: 2012-01-06 09:32
Silver, that seemed to be the anonymous finish when I bought it. When I first bought it, the screw mechanism ws very smooth. After a short time it developed a click but that hasn't inhibited the operation in any way. I much prefer it to the Rovner I was using before.
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Author: hautboy
Date: 2012-01-07 00:27
Hi, I'm a doubler looking for a good mouthpiece and saw this thread. I saw a YAC-1208 Yamaha 3 for sale for a great price and was wondering if I should try it. Also wondering about ligatures if anyone has suggestions. I've used rovner and the standard cheap metal ones with the 2 adjusting screws, but was just curious about options for ligatures (as well as mouthpieces). I'm a doubler and clarinet is a secondary instrument. Being primarily an oboe player, I could use more education regarding mouthpieces and ligatures. As for reeds, I like Michell Lure. They don't seem too bright for me which is good in the pit.
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Author: Ursa
Date: 2012-01-07 09:18
Hautboy...what clarinet mouthpiece and reed setup are you using now, and what don't you like about it?
The 1208 certainly isn't for everyone, and I'd hesitate to recommend it to doublers. I think of this model as a solution for certain playing situations, rather than as a general-purpose mouthpiece. For example, playing technical passages from classical literature in the altissimo register would be a very tiring exercise for me on a mouthpiece such as this one.
I echo Ken's thoughts on ligatures, in particular with this mouthpiece: A generic 2-screw metal ligature, in good condition, plays very well with this model. With the softish reeds required by this mouthpiece, you'll find the response depends much more on the particular reed in use than the ligature used to hold it.
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Author: Arnoldstang
Date: 2012-01-08 23:17
I'm missing something. What is a 1208? I haven't found a mouthpiece with this nomenclature.
Freelance woodwind performer
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Author: Tony M
Date: 2012-01-08 23:24
Yamaha Hard Rubber mouthpiece YAC 1208 #3. They come in 2, 2* (custom facing) and 3. The 3 is the most open at 1.32mm with a facing of 18.26mm.
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Author: Arnoldstang
Date: 2012-01-09 03:13
Try the Jody jazz clarinet mouthpiece or Portnoy. These are "free" in my estimation.
Freelance woodwind performer
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