 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: oca
Date: 2011-11-30 07:37
This may be too much to ask but:
Can anyone post a video on how a Vandoren Optimum ligature works?
How does it tighten from both directions using one screw?
How do you change plates and how is it stable afterwards?
A text description is also welcome
Post Edited (2011-11-30 07:38)
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Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2011-11-30 10:03
Changing the plates is just a matter of pulling on the plate while you "unscrew" the bolt. Putting on the new plate is a matter of applying a slight pressure to the new plate while "tightening" the bolt.
Without the ligature in front of me I can't remember the mechanics behind the bolt workings but the bottom line is that it tightens to the center unlike the standard configuration where one side is passive (that's why all other ligatures - besides the MASTERS really only presses from 'one side').
.................Paul Aviles
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Author: tictactux ★2017
Date: 2011-11-30 14:24
> How does it tighten from both directions using one screw?
One part of the screw is left-threaded, the other part is right-threaded, and in the middle there is no thread at all in order to accomodate the plate.
--
Ben
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Author: Sean.Perrin
Date: 2011-11-30 14:47
I lost all my extra plates so I can't explain that. :(
The screw seems to be dual threaded, so when you tighten it tightens "in" from both directions. It's quite brilliant.
I use the Optimum on my E-flat though, it's a great ligature. I still prefer my bonade on the B-flat/A though.
Founder and host of the Clarineat Podcast: http://www.clarineat.com
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Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2011-11-30 15:45
Thanks for the expanation of the threading !!!
One thing that may be a 'down side,' is that the double threading limits the amount of adjustment. I had to place the Optimum VERY low on some thin mouthpieces on which it reached its tightening limit too soon.
.....................Paul Aviles
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Author: oca
Date: 2011-12-03 02:27
Can anyone explain how the plate system works?
The Optimum seems to have too much mass down there because of the plate changing system.
Can someone post of a picture of the plating system?
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Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2011-12-03 03:52
You're right about the amount of mass (at least as I see it). It produces a nice tight sound but it is just a little too dead for my taste. The screw is heavy, the plate is heavy (due to the perpendicular part that attaches it to the screw and the rest of the ligature is pretty dense itself. This behaves like the 'mass load' system of the latest Rovner ligature without any of the Rovner's saving graces.
...................Paul Aviles
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Author: Caroline Smale
Date: 2011-12-03 23:21
A piece of thin leather e.g. from an old sax pad, glued inside the ligature can help it work better on a thin mouthpiece.
It also makes it work on my VD crystal whereas without the leather it easily slips.
Only problem here is the opposite to above as crystal mouthpieces tend to be rather fatter than most hard rubber.
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Author: oca
Date: 2011-12-04 08:12
In what way is the 'mass loading' similarity a blessing and when is it a curse?
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Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2011-12-05 01:38
Sorry, I was a bit too brief on the last post. The Optimum is all metal, all heavy and all dense. So everything about it (to me) dampens the sound.
The Rovner ligatures that use the added metal plate (which to my mind gets at the whole damping aspect) is a light material that allows a bit more of the reed to vibrate (like the Rovner Light as opposed to the Rovner Dark). So Rovner adds a bit if that 'solidity' to their light pouch design.
I did try to convey that I like the Optimum enough though. It's a step up from many ordinary ligatures. It's not 'cursed,' it's just flawed.
..................Paul Aviles
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Author: Buster
Date: 2011-12-05 03:52
leaving sound quality/frequency/materials out of it........
Newton's Third Law: Every action has an equal and opposite reaction.
Newton's Second Law: F=ma (force=mass x acceleration)
acceleration is the rate of change in velocity
Newton's Laws hold true on the non-quantum level. (Or as it is generally stated- Newton's Laws of Physics are the sum average of all the quantum states predicted by Schrodinger's equation.)
-Leaving the tightness of the ligature out of it for now. And disregarding the requisite energy loss necessary to not violate the laws of thermodynamics (there is no true closed system):
The stationary reed has a constant (for this moment) force applied to it. Upon application of said force- air pressure- the reed is accelerated at a rate proportional to its' mass. Commonly this is discussed as the amount of tip acceleration (vibration) in comparison to that of the heel- the often cited diving board analogy. That is a bit over-stated, but due to its' simplicity will serve adequately for this.
The thinner portion of the reed, which can visibly accelerate, transmits energy to the heel. As the heel has a much higher mass, it's acceleration is much smaller- though not invisible on the microscopic level.
As every action has an equal and opposite reaction, the acceleration of the heel conversely also accelerates the tip. The amount of acceleration received in the tip from the heel is much smaller as the mass of the heel is greater. (a=F/m)
Adding mass to the heel by way of the ligature also has an effect- greater mass in the a=F/m equation. (Though, we can say the heel vibrates the ligature, and the ligature vibrates the heel. But, that is going off on a tangent- figuratively and literally.)
An over-stated argument of "efficiency of energy transfer", which seems to be the implied crux of many ligature discussions found here, can be made by the simple ratio of tip acceleration to heel acceleration. The applied force remains constant while acceleration varies due to the varied masses.
This is why mass can have an effect on the playing experience. Simple Physics explains the basic relationship. This "efficiency" also plays a part in the "Why heavier ligatures are darker" argument. This does require us to dip a toe in the realm of frequencies.
The resultant sound of any note contains a composite of integer frequencies per the harmonic series. The higher the harmonic, the less present in the tone it is; also the greater presence of high harmonics in a tone adds to what many term "brightness."
As higher harmonics/frequencies grow progressively weaker, they are progressively "filtered" more and more by the mass of the ligature. Thus, the very weak, "bright" frequencies, are weakened to the point where they have little to no presence in the resultant tone produced, and we transmit a darker sound. A more massive ligature will filter out more high frequencies.
------------------------------------------------------------------
I apologize for my doubtless confusingly written post. I cannot write of Physics any better than I can dance about architecture.
However, much is written here about ligatures and why/how important they are. It is much over-estimated. I have had to ignore the energy transfer of the heel to the ligature, the energy loss in the ligature, the effect of the xylems of the reed, ligature tightness, ligature material etc..... to simply make for a semi-readable post. To actually sit and write every single equation of ligature effect, in and of itself, would be very long and a semi-pointless pursuit.
Also, when weighing the co-relationship of the vibrating reed with the standing wave in the bore, and the co-relation of the vibrating reed with the oral/vocal tract, the ligature effect is further reduced: many other aspects have far greater weight on matters.
The argument is not if ligatures have an effect; or even how much and why. The argument, to my mind, should be: Why do we put so much weight on the effect of a ligature when there so many other physically mutable aspects we can change in the midst of playing?
YMMV is not applicable in my mind.
But I do apologize for the speech
-Jason
Post Edited (2011-12-05 04:00)
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Author: Buster
Date: 2011-12-05 04:39
After thought, I should have stated what I wrote is not a proper first-order "experiment" or explanation.
But for our needs here, I believe we can take the presentation of certain aspects of Physics as accepted fact.
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Author: clarnibass
Date: 2011-12-05 04:45
>> Newton's Third Law <<
The best demonstration of this, or maybe it was thesecond, can't remember, is from Mark Steel on Open2 but I can't find the video online unfortunately...
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Author: Buster
Date: 2011-12-05 18:26
clarinbass,
If it's the reference in his stand-up routine to his Swiss boyfriend, the clip can be found on YouTube.
I test Newton's laws every-time I give my reed the wall test. The wall has yet to fail to prove the reed's inadequacy.
My "good" reeds are not subjected to the wall, but surely they would withstand.
-Post hoc ergo propter hoc
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Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2011-12-05 19:19
Dear 'Buster,'
Thanks for the thoughtful post. I personally don't view the ligature perse as having greater (or less) weight amongst all the constituant parts to the clarinet sound. HOWEVER, if the point of any particular quest happens to be the ligature, than it is more than appropriate to be particular about one's assesment. Naturally our musicianship comes first and foremost in the grand scheme of things, but forums like this are a handy way to hash out minutia. And it is up to the individual readers to find whether there is any merit to the hash.
Thanks again for your great post !!!!!
.....................Paul Aviles
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Author: oca
Date: 2011-12-07 09:08
Buster, I have earlier concluded that because of the mass of the clarinet attached, the ligature mass seems to be ineffective. What do you think of the clarinet's effect on the reed?
You might also be delighted to know that by the equation for the speed of the sound through a solid medium, that sound travels slower through gold-plated ligatures than brass and nickel. Maybe they are marketing to non-physics majors.
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