 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: The Watcher
Date: 2011-11-29 08:32
I recently started taking Clarinet lessons. I am already thinking about my next and last Clarinet purchase. I currently own a Yamaha YCL 250 student clarinet. My teacher said that after I learn some more I should concider purchasing a wooden clarinet.
Since I will only be playing for my own pleasure I think it should be either a top tier intermediate or lower level professional model. I'm leaning towards the Yamaha YCL 650. But, I would like to know other peoples choices and reasons for them.
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Author: Tony M
Date: 2011-11-29 09:53
I was in a similar position to you some time ago. I'd moved from playing rhythm guitar in a rehearsal band and took up clarinet for the pleasure of it when I figured that I wouldn't be going out much anymore. I began with my daughter's school band Vito and had it serviced. It did me fine for quite some time and then I bought a Yamaha YCL-62. That's the model that preceded the YCL 650 as the entry level professional model. For me, it was a great move. I still use them both. The Yamaha comes out for 'official' practice sessions and times when I want to work on technical issues like tone, fingering, etc. The Vito tends to be set up all day and moves around the house as I work on repertoire and stuff like that (I work from home a lot). The Yamaha comes back out when I record my practice sessions once a week or once a fortnight. It's the clarinet that gives the best tone of the two.
The important thing about the two of them is that they are very reliable and, after a period of trail and error with reeds, mouthpieces, ligatures, etc., I have working set ups that allow me to concentrate on music rather than clarinet maintainence. I'll never get away from reed problems, that I know, but I've found the Yamaha to be very reliable and that suits me to the ground. I'm sure there is a lot of other advice to listen to but my limited experience says that the Yamahas keep working well enough for me not to think about buying another clarinet. And if you think that might be because I'm immune to today's consumerist ethic then just look at the string of guitars around my joint. My family can't believe I only have two clarinets. They think I'm hiding the rest somewhere.
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Author: Hank Lehrer
Date: 2011-11-29 11:25
Hi Watcher,
Having nice tools as well as instruments is always a pleasure.
I have golf clubs that are much better than I will ever be. I own several Yamaha stereos and musical instruments (Yamaha CS Custom Clarinet, a YTS Tenor, etc.).
Nothing is worse than trying to perform well with poor equipment.
HRL
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Author: Lelia Loban ★2017
Date: 2011-11-29 12:49
>> I am already thinking about my next and last Clarinet purchase. >>
Yes, I looked for the last clarinet I'd ever buy, too. (How many clarinets ago was that?) Now, don't get me wrong. I'm not one of those crackpots, oops, I mean collectors. I only own, er, a few clarinets. Very few, really, compared to how many other people own. And I didn't pay full price for new merch. I bought them all used, at flea markets and junk shops and from friends. I only bought them because I haven't quite found my last clarinet yet: the ultimate one, the perfect one....
You're doomed. [Ghoulish grin!]
Lelia
http://www.scoreexchange.com/profiles/Lelia_Loban
To hear the audio, click on the "Scorch Plug-In" box above the score.
Post Edited (2011-11-29 12:49)
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Author: annev
Date: 2011-11-29 14:03
If you have the opportunity, I'd suggest visiting a number of music stores and just trying out as many clarinets as you can. Let them know you are considering an upgrade from your current clarinet and are at the stage of gathering information to decide which model to buy. Most stores are okay with this and have a practice room where you can play. Bring your current clarinet and mouthpiece, as well as a tuner and some of your music. Play scales as well as some repertoire and listen for tone quality, intonation and response with each clarinet. If you have friends who play clarinet you could also ask if you can briefly try out their instruments. I know there is more information on this board about how to test clarinets - the search function could lead you there if you are interested.
Clarinet selection is very personal and depends a lot on what you like and "hear" in your mind as the ideal clarinet sound. I ended up buying an Evette and Schaeffer clarinet, from the serial number models that began with a "K" (mine is from the early 1970s). It's the precursor to the current Buffet E-13, a high end intermediate model (much like the Yamaha 650). It had most of what I was looking for - beautiful tone and very good response and intonation. It "hums" under my fingers and (on the good days) sings very nicely!
(edited for typos)
Post Edited (2011-11-29 14:07)
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Author: SteveG_CT
Date: 2011-11-29 14:24
The Watcher wrote:
> Since I will only be playing for my own pleasure I think it
> should be either a top tier intermediate or lower level
> professional model. I'm leaning towards the Yamaha YCL 650.
> But, I would like to know other peoples choices and reasons for
> them.
>
Personally I'd recommend that instead spending ~$1500 on a YCL-650 that you put that money toward a used professional clarinet. For that price you can usually get a higher quality used instrument, get it overhauled, and end up with a clarinet that will play as well or better than an equivalent new professional clarinet at a fraction of the cost.
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Author: ramsa
Date: 2011-11-29 15:47
Like Tony M, I am also a guitar player that kind of stumbled into clarinet playing. My first purchase was a Selmer CL300 that I'd found at a yard sale for less than $50. I took a few lessons, and got hooked. Pretty soon I had an ad on Craigslist for a trade for one of my tube guitar amps for a quality wooden clarinet. Looking back, I got lucky and didn't get ripped off. Ended up with a nice used Yamaha YCL-62 also...
Then...my niece decided to sell her Buffet Festival, and cut me a crazy deal for an acoustic guitar and some cash. I have chased guitars for 30+ years, and figured the Festival might curtail the endless hunt for the Grail of clarinets. It did.
The Selmer got sold to purchase a new Vandoren mouthpiece. The YCL-62 is a great instrument, and now in the shop for a tune-up. I'll keep the Yamaha.
The Buffet is like fine jewelry. It stays, unless times get very, very bad. I know from buying, trading, and selling MANY guitars that once you get a pro-level instrument, it's really hard to step down. Life is too short, if you can buy a really nice horn, do it.
Brand isn't as important as how you feel about ownership. Get a good one, and save yourself the trouble of wishing/wondering about what else is "out there"... If I had spent the time and money with guitar practice and lessons, instead of chasing yet another guitar, I'd have been a much better player. In the end it's really about making music, unless you are a collector...
Best of luck!
This is a genuine signature.
Post Edited (2011-11-29 15:54)
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Author: William
Date: 2011-11-29 18:40
You wsill always find a clarinet that does something better than the one you've got, and that is probably why we clarinetist's keep buying, and buying....and buying. However, you will never find the clarinet that plays perfectly in all areas--tone quality, tuning and eveness of scale. It is a better statagey to learn to control the clarinet you have, relying more on practice than on equipement.
BTW, the lasy clarinet I will ever buy is my Buffet Prestege low C bass clarinet--not because it is the ultimate playing instrument, but rather, because my wife said NO MORE CLARINETS. No logic, just fear............
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Author: Dharma
Date: 2011-11-29 19:33
I'm in a similar kind of position.
I've only been playing a short time, and have 'the other' beginner clarinet - a B12.
I certainly don't warrant a better instrument yet, but then I'm a grown up, I earn a decent wage, and there's a great deal of satisfaction in owning and playing a finely crafted instrument. So I have started to look at upgrades. It will be a year or so, I think, before I make a move, but I like to research the market.
The decision I have to make is just how extravagant to be. So I have been looking at literature and reviews for the 650, but also for the SEV, CSG and for others in between, such as the Hanson T5 (the factory is less than an hour from my home).
What I have found is that there are very, very few reviews oline. If was looking to buy a Gibson or Fender, or some other pro-level electric guitar, or even a high-level classical guitar, there are dozens of reviews available online. For clarinets in this range, outside this forum, I have found one site that reviews six or so instruments...and that's it!
-----
A horse is drawn to water, but a pencil must be lead.
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Author: Trevor M
Date: 2011-11-29 19:42
I would suggest a few things:
1) I would buy a used professional clarinet rather than a new intermediate. In the music industry trade magazines, they're always bemoaning that they're 'competing against themselves' since there's so much excellent used gear floating around or sitting closets. With a little patience and legwork, you could get a nice older R13 or Selmer series 9 or something for the price of an inferior modern horn. Generally speaking, a used instrument will go for about %50 or %60 of a new one, unless it's something extremely rare. (R13s are not extremely rare.) Also, don't be too afraid to buy a 'fixer upper' pro instrument- a full repad might be $300, but you can still come out way ahead.
2) The stock mouthpiece will probably be bad. Allocate $200 or so to get a really good mouthpiece.
Good luck!
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Author: Maria P
Date: 2011-11-29 19:56
I recently started playing again after a long gap. I have a Sonata (Hanson) at the moment which is a student clarinet - but as I'm celebrating a 'big' birthday soon, my husband said he would buy me a wooden clarinet.
After asking for advice on here, and also speaking to people who play in my ensemble, as well as sticking to the budget that I was given (approx £800) - I decided on the Yamaha 450 and it seems like a good choice. I've played it a couple of times and I'm impressed. Pity I'm not allowed to touch it til my birthday now lol.
I did invest in a better mouthpiece as well, which I'm currently using but hope to use with the Yamaha as well (Selmer C85 120). And I've now ordered a Rovner Mark III ligature to complete the package.
I've only been playing again for 3 months but I'm already getting into checking out clarinets and equipment, especially on ebay. If I was left to it I'd be buying clarinets every other week - but somehow I think my husband would have something to say about that lol.
Maria
Post Edited (2011-12-26 19:29)
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Author: Tony M
Date: 2011-11-29 20:57
Several replies to the OP have said that it would be better to buy a used professional level clarinet than the YCL 650. Yamaha label the YCL 650 as a professional level clarinet on their website. Is there something that Yamaha don't know about their instruments?
Post Edited (2011-11-30 11:33)
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Author: Maria P
Date: 2011-11-29 22:50
I always thought that the 650 was the professional model, as opposed to the intermediate 450 model.
Maria
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Author: SteveG_CT
Date: 2011-11-30 00:02
The YCL-650 is a professional level model and is a good clarinet judging from the couple I have tried. However you could probably get a used professional clarinet, and and overhaul from a good tech and still come in well under that price depending on what model you get.
My take is that if you want a new clarinet and are on a budget then the YCL-650 is a great option. I just think there are better options in the same price range if you are willing to consider used instruments.
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Author: sfalexi
Date: 2011-11-30 07:04
SteveG_CT wrote:
> The YCL-650 is a professional level model and is a good
> clarinet judging from the couple I have tried. However you
> could probably get a used professional clarinet, and and
> overhaul from a good tech and still come in well under that
> price depending on what model you get.
>
> My take is that if you want a new clarinet and are on a
> budget then the YCL-650 is a great option. I just think there
> are better options in the same price range if you are willing
> to consider used instruments.
I agree. For a new price, and in general, the 650 is a very good clarinet. I've played a few and really liked them.
But to get the best bang for your buck, I'd buy a used professional model (of pretty much any make) and send it to a REALLY good technician with instructions to make it "as good as possible". I'd wager that 9 times out of 10, you'd end up with a REALLY good instrument that cost less than, but would outperform almost any new professional model out of the box (that HASN'T been worked on by a good tech).
Alexi
US Army Japan Band
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Author: Tony M
Date: 2011-11-30 11:55
I'm in two minds here and I'm not saying this to be awkward. I genuinely have a quandary with this situation.
Scenario 1 is buy a Yamaha 650 and have a perfectly good clarinet that can be played and enjoyed (notwithstanding new mpc, lig, etc.). Scenario 2 is buy a better pro model secondhand, run it by the tech and have a better instrument for less or the same money. And then presumably play and enjoy it.
In my association with guitars I would have clearly opted for scenario 2. I still have eight guitars around the house now and I dream of the ones that I either sold or let get away. But, call it age or early onset, I'm now attracted more to scenario 1. Get a clarinet, fix it up (unfortunately this applies to new and used instruments) and just get on with making music.
Having sat on both sides of the fence I would like to have a refreshingly mature perspective but I don't. My limited experience tells me that Yamahas are reliable clarinets (I intend to buy a YTS62 tenor sax one day) and that's about as close as I get to keeping this within any kind of distance to the original thread.
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Author: sfalexi
Date: 2011-11-30 21:54
Quote:
But, call it age or early onset, I'm now attracted more to scenario 1. Get a clarinet, fix it up (unfortunately this applies to new and used instruments) and just get on with making music. Sounds like as good a plan as any! Go for it. I would try to make a trip to a store that has a bunch you can try out and see if you can test a few of them instead of just blindly ordering one. There can be differences between each individual clarinet.
US Army Japan Band
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Author: Tony M
Date: 2011-11-30 23:13
Thanks for the advice, sfalexi, but I was posing this as more of a philosophical problem. The OP was the one with questions about a new instrument. I was merely speculating on how the attraction of new instruments always seems to chip away at the resolve to just be happy with what we have and get on with making pleasant noise. Sorry if I was unintentionally misleading.
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Author: Jack Kissinger
Date: 2011-12-01 00:08
Watcher, since you are a beginner, I would highly recommend you go with the YCL-650. For around $1,500, you can buy a new clarinet with a warranty. It will be plenty of clarinet for what you want and you can grow old with it. If something isn't quite right when you get it, you and your teacher should be able to recognize that pretty quickly and the seller should make it right. And you have Yamaha standing behind the instrument, as well.
Buying a used "professional" model and having it overhauled presents a number of problems you may not want to deal with or have the expertise to deal with. First of all, out of all the clarinets that have been sold over the last hundred years, what models are acceptable? a Buffet R13? a Yamaha YCL-72? How about a Leblanc Symphonie? The point is that there are a lot of "professional" clarinets out there. Some are likely to be a good choice for you but there are many more that you should avoid. Remember the old adage, "You can't make a silk purse out of a sow's ear." If you don't have good raw material, you almost certainly won't end up with a good product. How much do you trust your judgment? your teacher's? (Aside: I'm amazed at how little many of my professional musician friends actually know about equipment. They are too busy playing and trying to make a living to become "gear sluts.")
But let's assume that you are able to narrow your choices to models that will be a good fit for you. Assuming you have a potentially appropriate clarinet, the second question is "Does this instrument have the potential to be put into condition as good as the new YCL-650 with a reasonable amount of effort?" In other words, how good are you at evaluating condition? Can you tell if a clarinet has a problem that will be difficult to repair?
But let's assume that you or your teacher can evaluate a clarinet accurately. All that's left is to take the clarinet to a "good repair tech," right? But first you have to identify one! Can you do that? And not just a repair tech who's good at day-to-day maintenance -- one who excels at restoration.
Buying a used clarinet and having it restored can provide you with a good clarinet that costs a bit less than a new YCL-650 (but, for even a 10-20 year-old Buffet R13 with a truly good overhaul, you will probably be close to the cost of a new YCL-650). In my experience, however, the upside -- perhaps a small cost savings or marginal improvement in quality that you may not be even be able to recognize -- isn't worth the downside, i.e., the greater risk that you will wind up with an expensive lemon -- something you definitely will notice.
IMO, you should be looking for a high quality instrument at a reasonable cost with little risk. For you, I think the YCL-650 fits that bill much better than a reconstructed used professional instrument.
My $.02.
Best regards and good hunting,
jnk
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Author: The Watcher
Date: 2011-12-01 01:30
Without going through the arguments of "new" vs. "used", I have come across these discussions before. I also know that I should actually try them out before I buy. I'm really more interest in your personal prefferences as to make and model. And your reasoning behind this choice. I'd also like to know what clarinets you would avoid.
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Author: sfalexi
Date: 2011-12-01 03:33
Clarinets to avoid? Easier to list makes that you don't have to worry about avoiding. Yamaha, Buffet, Leblanc, and Selmer are the top brands for availability AND quality. You should be able to find them anywhere.
Just do a little bit of searching and reading on the pros and cons of "used vs. new" on this board to get a bunch of opinions and possibly some viewpoints you haven't thought of before you commit to "I must buy new to get a warranty" or "I must buy used to get a deal". I have my opinions but if it's just you without a teacher or experienced player to help you out, best to arm yourself with lots of different ways of looking at a situation.
Enjoy the board!
Alexi
US Army Japan Band
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Author: The Watcher
Date: 2011-12-02 04:46
It is interesting to note that you play with the US Army Signal Corps Band.
While my usual teacher was rehersing for a concert I had a leason with a woman who was a principle clarinetist with the Naval Academy Band.
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Author: The Watcher
Date: 2011-12-08 06:27
My teacher last week noticed that my ligature had a tendency to move the reed out of line. I purchased a new Rovner ligature tonight and surprisingly, to me anyway, I noticed a difference, for the better right away.
Even very small changes can effect your playing.
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Author: Buster
Date: 2011-12-08 06:31
All I can say is thankfully Sir Shackleton never uttered those words!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
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Author: msroboto
Date: 2011-12-10 06:47
The ultimate clarinet can be found next to the perfect box of reeds.
Oh there is no perfect box of reeds.
And now you have the answer.
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Author: The Watcher
Date: 2011-12-16 07:40
OK, so I just won an E-Bay auction, which I didn't expect to. And, I am now waiting for a Normandy by LeBlanc 4 to arrive. I believe I got a good deal on it. I'll see when it arrives. Worse case - I will trade it in on a better one later.
I don't know much about them. I suspect it was an intermediate level clarinet.
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Author: SteveG_CT
Date: 2011-12-16 20:04
The Normandy 4 was probably the longest lived Normandy model. I believe you could buy them new until about 5 years ago. If it actually says "Leblanc" on it then it is one of the later ones. It was Leblanc's entry-level wood clarinet, pretty much a lower-intermediate or high-end student model.
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Author: The Watcher
Date: 2011-12-26 08:47
I am rather cheaply learning the hard leassons in Musical instrument etc. purchases. Try before you buy. I won an ebay auction for a Normandy 4, at a very cheap price. It needs some very minor repair work. But, I'm not that thrilled with it. I'll either sell it when I find my Last clarinet. Or trade it in. I bought a Selmer mouthpiece, at a good clearence price. But, it is a little harder to blow that the other two. I think I will still hang on to this though.
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Author: The Watcher
Date: 2012-01-04 07:19
I had the minor repairs made today to the Normandy 4. I'm still not really thrilled with it. But, I am getting experience with a wooden instrument using it.
The repair tech gave me a ball park estimate of three hundred dollars for it's resale value.
I don't think I want to put any more money into this one though.
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Author: The Watcher
Date: 2012-01-15 07:55
One of the managers of the Music Store where I bought everything, except the Normandy, asked how I liked the Selmer mouthpeice. I told her I wasn't exactly thrilled with it. She said she would be glad to exchange it for me. I really didn't expect this because it was a clearence item - you usually can not bring back a clearence item anywhere. And, the gold lettering did something when I gave it a quick wash so it discolored a good bit of the mouthpeice. I did exchange it for a much better mouth piece for me - after I showed her the Selmer. I did not want to take advantage of her kind offer without her knowning about the discoloration first.
You just can not find good customer service like this any more!
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Author: Ursa
Date: 2012-01-15 09:22
I'm surprised the music store exchanged a discolored mouthpiece. That's quite above and beyond what one could reasonably expect!
Regarding your Normandy 4, some play better than others--as is the case with any model of clarinet.
A suggestion: Barrels that have dimensionally shifted out of round and/or that were made with less than top-quality wood are often the culprit when I encounter a Normandy that doesn't play as it should. Before you give up on your Normandy, try a different barrel on it, and test play the instrument--a different barrel may suddenly improve the response. The barrel from your Yamaha YCL-250 could be used for this.
Cheers...Ursa
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Author: The Watcher
Date: 2012-01-28 08:35
I haven't given up on the Normandy. I just want to eventually get a "Low Level" pro clarinet that I will keep.
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Author: The Watcher
Date: 2012-01-28 08:40
I would really like to find a local music store that carries professional brands besides Buffet.
I would really like to look at, hold, and test some other makers Clarinets. But, the only thing I can find in the stores is the R13. I particularly want to look at some LeBlancs and Yamahas.
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Author: Trevor M
Date: 2012-01-28 09:23
It might be worth the big drive to a store with more of a selection. Good luck with that, though... it's really hard to find shops these days with a lot of clarinets of different makes that are in properly set-up condition. In fact, it might be worth devoting a thread to such shops on this board.
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Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2012-01-28 12:05
Here's a 'trick' you might try with Yamaha. Of course this is easier with a store that actually carries some of their student model clarinets but ANY dealer of Yamaha musical products should be able to help.
You ask to have a clarinet (a specific model you want to try) brought in on a trial basis. That is, if you don't like it, you are NOT obligated to purchase the instrument. Of course you won't have a selection of instruments to try but I did this with the Yamaha CSG-H and traded my R13 on the spot !!!!
Good Luck !
...............Paul Aviles
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Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2012-04-27 08:43
I place the SEV and CSG into the same category of wonderfully made clarinets with very even intonation. The SEV is a slightly brighter sounding horn, but certainly not more so than the Buffet Tosca. So if you're looking for a Buffet alternative and not comfortable with the design of the CSG, look to the SEV.
..............Paul Aviles
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Author: MrJozzerBeast
Date: 2012-04-27 19:02
Hey
My best advice would be to either search long and hard for a good quality used Buffet r13 or go all out and buy a new buffet r13. They are extremely reliable.
I know that is a lot of money, but it is best to be able to have equipment that will last for a long time if you don't want to have to buy another.
Hope this helps
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Author: The Watcher
Date: 2012-05-04 09:53
I think I'm going to give in to the urge to buy a new Buffet E11. The music store that I take my lessons at has a great price on the German made E11's.
I actually tried an E11, R13, and Yamaha YCL-450 very recently. I was actually more impressed with how the E11 felt and played than I was with the other two.
I not to sure that the newer French version, of the E11, is any improvement over the German one.
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Author: The Watcher
Date: 2012-05-04 09:57
One more thing. I contacted all the Music Stores within 50 miles of my home, and not one of them had more than one or two clarinets not made by Buffet. And, all of them said that after I tried the others they carried I'd end up buying the Buffet anyway. They are just that good.
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Author: SteveG_CT
Date: 2012-05-04 13:27
The Watcher wrote:
> One more thing. I contacted all the Music Stores within 50
> miles of my home, and not one of them had more than one or two
> clarinets not made by Buffet. And, all of them said that after
> I tried the others they carried I'd end up buying the Buffet
> anyway. They are just that good.
Do you really expect them to even suggest that something else might be better than the instruments they carry and risk having you shop somewhere else?
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Author: tictactux ★2017
Date: 2012-05-04 13:50
"We have exactly what you need. And if we don't have it, you don't need it." ![[tongue]](http://test.woodwind.org/clarinet/BBoard/smileys/smilie6.gif)
--
Ben
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Author: The Watcher
Date: 2012-05-05 06:45
I just bought a Buffet E11, the Greman version not the new French one. I can't truely say that it will be my last Clarinet purchase. But, for right now I am happy with it. I concider it to be about three times better than my Normandy 4. So that is a great improvement. And, I got it for a good price from the shop I usually deal with.
It sounds right. It feels right. And, the price was right. What more could I ask for.
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