 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: Elkwoman46
Date: 2011-11-18 18:40
My playing still lacks...grin...and have a really ignorant question to ask...just in case it is true or not true...
If someone is playing in the key of C, and a clarinetist was playing same sheet music coming forth in two semi-tones lower of course, Bb. My question, is this still harmonic or not? As you can see, my question is really ignorant, but my skill levels at this point demonstrate that I am not sure...grin. I was trying to play something way too fast to know for sure. And I still remain a bit ignorant about harmonics in general...although my knowledge of sheet music notation has greatly increased recently. Furthermore, I may have been playing along with something that was not in C actually but improvised as well; hence, my curious question about all of this. Sounded some what good, but hummm, type of thing.
Thanks for your help on this matter, and would love to know if this works, anyway, being two semi-tones off...is this good for some notes, but not all? Or are all notes harmonic in this scheme? Or fairly good, or way off, don't even bother?
Input greatly appreciated.
Thanks.
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Author: EEBaum
Date: 2011-11-18 19:09
You're playing something with a tonic of Bb against something with the tonic of C. It can work in improvisatory contexts, but will sound "off." Whether you like that kind of "off" is up to you. The two keys share a lot of chords, but not all of them, so it will probably meander between sounding right and sounding wrong.
I wouldn't do this all the time (it would get old), but for a song or a solo once in a while, it can be a cool sound.
-Alex
www.mostlydifferent.com
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Author: Buster
Date: 2011-11-18 21:56
Elkwoman46,
Your question is not out of place and quite valid. It can be said that any combination of notes are harmonic so I do believe that notion can be tossed out.
What you speak of is a form of bi-tonality; a device used at times by many a famous composer. Just for a few examples:
-The Poulenc clarinet/bassoon duet has many sections where the 2 voices are playing in differing tonal centers.
-Stravinsky used it quite often during certain "periods" of his composition. Quite starkly when the 2 tonal centers where a tritone apart. That same relationship can be found in an early Suite of short Schoenberg piano compositions. (op. 5 or 12, I cannot remember.)
-I have seen an harmonic analysis of the Prelude to Wagner's Tristan and Isolde applying the technique of bi-tonality.
the usage of differing tonal centers in post "hard-bop" improvisation is quite prevalent. Take a listen to late Coltrane, Freddie Hubbard and particularly Woody Shaw.
(I'll keep everything in concert key for simplicity.)
While your usage of a tonal center below a whole step below the "true" tonic is less used, it is quite interesting.
If you have a Cdom7 chord and you are playing with a Bb scale, you are simply emphasizing upper extensions of the C chord.
-Let's take the scale Bb-C-D-Eb-F-G-A
now what do we have: Bb-the 7th, C-tonic, D-the 9th, Eb-#9, F-the 11th (must be treated with care), G- the 5th, A- the 13th.
Change that Eb to E (now a Lydian scale) and you have the 3rd of Cdom7
You have an entirely different palette of colors available to you now which will not sound discordant to current jazz ears.
-Bb whole tone over Cdom7
Bb-7th, C-tonic, D-9th, E-3rd, F#-#11(tri-tone), G#-#5
-Now Eb dorian over Cdom7
Eb-#9, F-11th, Gb-#11(tri-tone), Ab-#5, Bb-7th, C-tonic, Db-b9
-Now let's get more "out": D major pentatonic over Cmaj7
D-9th, E-3rd, F#-#11 (gives a lydian sound), A-13th, B-7th
-E major pentatonic over Cmaj7
E-3rd, F#-#11, G#-#5, B-7th, C#-b9 (But careful with that one). Add a D and you get the 9th of C which makes the C# much more easily treated
-G major pentatonic over C
G-5th, A-9th, B-5th, D-9th, E-3rd
-Way "out"- F# maj pentatonic over Cdom7
F#-#11, G#-#5, A#-7th, C#-b9, D#-#9
I have lots more devices that are quite apt, but that should at least give you an idea of what encompasses harmonic. And more importantly dispel some of the myths about what jazz improvisation truly is.
Also, for a good example: Find a copy of Dexter Gordon's "Homecoming" album w/ Woody Shaw on trumpet. Listen to the first track "Gingerbread Boy"...... what Woody is doing in his "improvised" solo demonstrates some of these harmonic relations. Perhaps do some transcribing of his solo as well- at the very least it will help your aural development.
-Jason
Post Edited (2011-11-18 22:08)
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Author: Elkwoman46
Date: 2011-11-18 22:11
THANK YOU BOTH SO MUCH!
Jason, thank you for those details...I am going to print this out and study it closely. I so very much appreciate this. Thanks again.
Also, will be looking for the things you recommended to listen to.
Very much appreciated as well. Thanks!!!!!!!!!!
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Author: Buster
Date: 2011-11-18 22:29
Share the wealth and level the playing field!- why hoard information?!?
And it should be said that I did not invent, nor "discover" these things. I merely observed. What we speak of here is not truly the "intellectual property" of anybody.
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2011-11-18 22:32
Not completely unrelated to this topic, but I had a very toe-curling experience with an amateur orchestra and choir years ago where the leader gave the tenor singer the tonic note of 'Londonderry Air', but the tenor singer took this tonic note as their starting note (the tune begins on the leading note) and ended up singing the whole song a semitone higher than it should have been, regardless of the leader and other orchestra members trying in vain to put him right.
Similar thing happened to me on a Pickle night the other week when one of the organisers (who was feeling the effects of the rum barrel plus other drinks by this time) started up and roused everyone into singing a sea shanty before I gave them all the intro and ended up a minor 3rd out. Some of the diners went with me but there were many that didn't, so 'Drunken Sailor' sounded very drunken.
'Satin Doll' is another song where some singers can end up singing a 4th or 5th out if they're not careful.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: Bob Bernardo
Date: 2011-11-18 23:18
I didn't read the other posts for a reason. Electronic music usually doesn't have harmonics.
Except for that every note contains harmonic's. At Peabody Conservatory we had to try writng down the harmonics and it started off bad for me, but after a few weeks you could pretty much zero in on the overtones. It was kind of fun.
So in your case there are harmonic's and it wasn't a silly question, actually an excellent question. Play the same notes that you are playing, but do this on a piano.
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Author: Buster
Date: 2011-11-19 01:40
ummmm.........
Yes every note does sound harmonics/over-tones. If focused on, your ear can pick them out. They are most evident to mine on (writing in terms of a Bb clarinet.) A3, C4, and D4.
In dictating Bach chorales I inadvertently found myself writing down the difference tones/harmonics that resulted at times.
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This is all beside the point.
It does help to read the ensuing posts at times, or the original a bit more closely. The writer was asking about "harmonic" in terms of tonality- or better, how they relate in the harmony of any given passage.
The usage of 'harmonic' was not the correct term perhaps, but by passing over what was written you may be confusing matters for the original poster as what you are addressing has nothing to do with what was asked.
-Jason
Post Edited (2011-11-19 01:53)
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Author: Tony F
Date: 2011-11-19 03:18
There's no such thing as a dumb question, just dumb answers.
Tony F.
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Author: Bob Phillips
Date: 2011-11-19 04:10
So far, and forever, Elk you have yet to ask a dumb question.
I, however, don't have a clear understanding of your question. If the C-instrument (say a piano or flute) is playing right off of the sheet music, and the Bb clarinet is reading the same music, the clarinet always sounds 2 semi-tones low, and the combined sound can be grating.
If the clarinetist playing a Bb clarinet wants to match the pitch of the C-instrument, she much play notes that are 2-semi tones HIGHER than what is being played by the C-instrument. AND, to get all of the semi-tones in the scale in their correct place, must remove 2 flats from the written key signature. Removing 2 flats has the same effect as adding 2 sharps.
Another way to look at this key signature issue is that the Bb clarinetist must raise all of the notes played by 2 semitones, but also the key signature. If the C-instrument's music is in the key of C, the clarinet will have to play in the key of D, two steps up from C, which has the key signature F#/C#. An example is that the Bb clarinetist reading a B natural on the C-instrument's music will need to play a C#. You can think of the C# as "a note higher with the key signature corrected," or as 2 semi-tones up B 1/2 step to C then a second half step to C#. The F# takes care of the missing half step between E and F, as E 1/2 step to F and a second half step to F#.
If the C-instrument's music is in the key of Bb (Bb/Eb), the Bb clarinet's key will be 2 semitones higher, or C (Bb 1/2 step to BNatural, second half step to C.
So, a Bb clarinet is pretty handy for reducing the complexity of keys with flats in their key signature.
An A clarinet has to come up 3 semitones to match the pitch of the C-instruments and it looses 3 sharps in its key signature. So, the A clarinet removes 3 sharps from the C-instrument's key signature. The A clarinet removes 5#s from the Bb clarinet's key signature. You gotta love that.
Bob Phillips
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Author: Elkwoman46
Date: 2011-11-19 17:56
THANK YOU everyone!!!!!!!!!! For the awesome information.
I am so grateful.
I am printing off the rest of this topic and will also study it carefully.
I am actually blown away by it all...hard to explain...but first, I just need to completely comprehend what has been written here.
Thank you everyone again.
Thanks so much.
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Author: Buster
Date: 2011-11-19 20:26
Just for your own clarity, the word 'harmonic' can encompass differing meanings for some.
The 'harmonic series', which deals with wavelength and the subsequent divisions which provide overtones, is one. The clarinet can only play the odd-numbered divisions of the harmonic series.
'Harmonic', how I think you are attempting to apply it, deals with how certain notes correspond/fit with any given chordal structure. This is in the realm of music theory- analysis.
Unfortunately our limited verbal vocabulary sometimes confuses matters with inadvertent/unavoidable double meanings.
Hope all of this helps.
-Jason
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