 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: oca
Date: 2011-11-17 13:43
Vertical rail ligatures: Bonade, BG Traditional, BG duo, BG revelations, Bay, Spriggs and much more
Horizontal rail ligatures: Vandoren Masters, Vandoren m/o, and more
Other: Vandoren Optimum, Vandoren Klassik, Luyben, Francis Bois, Rovner soft ligatures and more
I've learned alot about ligatures browsing he BB, but everytime I am about to conclude which ligature is the "best", I see a post declaring their own ligature to be preferable over the rest.
Therfore, I conclude that I was approaching the question of the "best" ligature in the wrong way. Mass produced ligatures will always have defects in which causes one to become irate about the ligature and thus negatively reviewing it on the BB. So many reviews have some sort of innaccuracy/bias.
So lets talk about ligatures by grouping them. There are 3 systems that ligatures work with: vertical rail, horizontal rail, and other(no rail at all)
Which is the best system?
Post Edited (2011-11-17 14:25)
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Author: rtmyth
Date: 2011-11-17 14:16
My preference is the velcro one- easily made, low cost (less than $1), fully adjustable, even pressure distribution which allows minute adjustment with the reed in place, etc, etc.
richard smith
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Author: JJAlbrecht
Date: 2011-11-17 14:59
The "best" one is the one that gives you the pest performance on your clarinet, using your mouthpiece and reed.
It's a simple as that.
Jeffrtmyth wrote:
“Everyone discovers their own way of destroying themselves, and some people choose the clarinet.” Kalman Opperman, 1919-2010
"A drummer is a musician's best friend."
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Author: Ed
Date: 2011-11-17 15:06
Whatever works best for you. There really is no answer. It would be no different than asking "what is the best fruit?" or "what is the best piece of music?" Everyone will have different opinions.
The most important thing is to find what you are comfortable with and then just practice and make music.
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Author: oca
Date: 2011-11-17 15:18
Although I partially agree with the posts above, I am looking for an objective answer, one that deals with physics and equations rather than one that deals with opinions.
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Author: Joseph Brenner, Jr.
Date: 2011-11-17 16:17
You seek an objective answer, but you ask "which is best." "Best" is a subjective term. I fear that you may be boring into a dry hole.
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Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2011-11-17 17:42
Well MY experience has been most favorable with the vertical rail systems. The rail idea isolates the reed from the ligature (gives you a smaller contact point that should in theory allow more vibrations). With the vertical configuration the reed is supported from the MIDDLE, out to either end. If you use a horizontal contact (usually just one toward the top and one toward the bottom of the reed) then you are NOT supporting the very middle of the reed and possibly only favoring a typical bend from the middle up that many reeds take on in the process of warping.
Of course I would not deny anyone success with the horizontal option. I only think the vertical makes more sense overall.
In addition I would assert that using the least amount of pressure possible from ANY ligature, will affectively take the 'ligature' (no matter what design) out of the equation (to varying degrees of course).
................Paul Aviles
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Author: Ed Palanker
Date: 2011-11-18 03:27
The best ligature is the one that you feel the most comfortable on and that you feel gives you the best response and tone quality. Doesn't matter which way the rails go, what color it is, or what's it's made of. String, steel, leather or what ever. ESP
eddiesclarinet.com
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Author: oca
Date: 2011-11-18 07:58
"You seek an objective answer, but you ask "which is best." "Best" is a subjective term. I fear that you may be boring into a dry hole."
That is precisely why I used quotation marks, to indicate the word is not being used in its proper context.
I believe in a "best" in that there are some things that will and always be superior to another.
I recently read an article about how ligatures plated with gold or silver do nothing to improve the sound quality, but actually worsen it contrary to what the companies advertise.
Those who have taken college physics will remember the equation that dictates how fast sound travels through a solid medium. It is the sqrt(Young's modulus/density)
Gold has one of the lowest values for Young's Modulus and one of the highest densities. For those of you who are curious it is 7.8x10^10 while the standard ligature material nickel has a value of 2.14x10^11 and a much lower density than gold. Sound will move significantly slower through gold.
THUS
Gold is a poor material for ligatures but is still marketed by the companies to get your money. They even claim that the gold gives a bright and shining tone. In reality it is a precious metal that is an excuse for companies to sell you and expensive item.
This is, in my mind, objective. You could respond that you prefer sound traveling slower through the ligature. You could also make a subjective argument about how poop tastes better than sugar, how pain is better than pleasure, but you have to understand that somethings can be easily determined as the "best".
Form example, 'Usain Bolt' is the fastest runner because his times are the lowest'. I am only trying to do the same with clarinet accessories.
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Author: William
Date: 2011-11-18 14:49
You neglected to include the ligs with independent support pinions, such as my favorite, the Winslow with its six stems that can be arranged in many different configurations to suite your own playing needs. They are bulky and require a lot of mantainance when the rubber bumpers wear out, but no other lig on the market allow the reed to resonate and produce as many overtones as this lig does. Sadly, they are no longer made, but John made sure I had a lifetime supply of replacement parts, so I continue to use them on my saxophones and Eb clarinet. For bass clarinet and my Bb & A sopranos, I use the VD Optimum lig with the parallel rails which I much prefer to the four-dot or horizontal inserts.
What lig is best?? There's no answer except, like mouthpieces, reeds and clarinets, the one that works best for you--not me, YOU.
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Author: Ken Shaw ★2017
Date: 2011-11-18 15:50
There are hundreds ligature of designs, each one weirder than the last http://images.search.yahoo.com/images/view;_ylt=A0PDoX9FisZOGTkA3.KJzbkF;_ylu=X3oDMTBlMTQ4cGxyBHNlYwNzcgRzbGsDaW1n?back=http%3A%2F%2Fimages.search.yahoo.com%2Fsearch%2Fimages%3Fp%3Dclarinet%2Bligature%26_adv_prop%3Dimage%26va%3Dclarinet%2Bligature%26fr%3Dyfp-t-471%26b%3D163%26tab%3Dorganic&w=546&h=153&imgurl=www.the-clarinets.net%2Fimages%2Fblattschrauben.png&rurl=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.the-clarinets.net%2Fenglish%2Fclarinet-mouthpiece.html&size=92.7+KB&name=The+Clarinets+-+The+Instrument+-+Mouthpiece+and+Lay&p=clarinet+ligature&oid=9722bc8bc2b51d6bb55e766ed83194ba&fr2=&fr=yfp-t-471&tt=The+Clarinets+-+The+Instrument+-+Mouthpiece+and+Lay&b=193&ni=54&no=215&tab=organic&ts=&sigr=11trr18pc&sigb=144eqt6md&sigi=11fbt7biv&.crumb=U6eXe/SsKTK.
You use what works, and the differences and improvements of any particular design are small.
My preferences:
1. My right thumb. Of course that only lets me play notes on the upper joint, and I haven't found a friend flexible enough to wrap around my body so I can play with both hands.
2. String http://www.woodwind.org/clarinet/Uploads/strnglig.html.
3. The cheapest available metal ligature, bent with needle-nose pliers so that the metal doesn't touch the edges of the reed. This is the Kalmen Opperman and Richard Stoltzman solution.
4. The Olegature http://www.olegproducts.com/olegatures-ligatures.asp. The problem is, there are hundreds of different positions and tightness variations, all impossible to duplicate. Only Oleg himself can reliably set it in the best way. Also, the screws are tiny and kill my fingers when I adjust them.
5. The Rovner Light http://www.rovnerproducts.com/ligaturesnew.htm, which blows freely and is very modestly priced.
∞ [infinity]. Fancy ligatures, in order of increasing price. The more geegaws, the more it interferes with free vibration.
The stock Buffet ligature with the metal plate) is, in my opinion, pure poison. http://forum.saxontheweb.net/showthread.php?141556-FS-FT-Cheap-Selmer-Magnitone-Bay-Buffet-amp-Berg-Larsen-Lig, photo 25.
William -
I played on a Winslow for a while, both the first and (lighter) second version. (So did Larry Combs -- maybe the only thing we have in common.) I found that they worked best with all six stems installed. However, the ends of the stems were cross-hatched, and they really tore up the bark area of the reeds. It was a tremendous relief to go back to string, or, if I'm in a hurry, the Opperman solution or the Rovner Light.
Ken Shaw
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Author: sonicbang
Date: 2011-11-18 19:34
Buster's answer got the point. Super glue also make your life easier regarding the mouthpiece and reed question too. You only have to make your choice once in a lifetime.
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Author: gsurosey
Date: 2011-11-18 20:14
I've seen a ligature out there for over $700. Either it's a typo, or it plays for you, too.
----------
Rachel
Clarinet Stash:
Bb/A: Buffet R13
Eb: Bundy
Bass: Royal Global Max
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Author: SteveG_CT
Date: 2011-11-18 21:17
gsurosey wrote:
> I've seen a ligature out there for over $700. Either it's a
> typo, or it plays for you, too.
>
Made out of solid gold perhaps?
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Author: Ed
Date: 2011-11-18 22:17
Quote:
My preferences:
1. My right thumb. Of course that only lets me play notes on the upper joint, and I haven't found a friend flexible enough to wrap around my body so I can play with both hands.
That is why I have a patent on a ligature that looks just like a big thumb. Considerable money has been spent on research to find the perfect sized thumb for optimal resonance. High tech polymers and rubber compounds were developed to replicate the feel and density of a thumb.
We are currently beta testing the design. Once this is complete we will begin selling the ligature. It will be the greatest advancement in clarinet since the invention of the reed.
Plans are in the works for the "vintage series", where one will be able to get copies of the thumbs of some of the greatest players. The "custom series" will enable a player to get an exact copy of their own thumb.
Watch the BB for the announcement of this great product.
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Author: Claire Annette
Date: 2011-11-19 15:46
Ed, that made me smile.
However, I'd like to disciss the virtues of the left thumb versus the right and whether a French manicure will dampen the overtones.
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Author: kilo
Date: 2011-11-19 17:09
I'd really appreciate a good, scientifically-based explanation — I'm not trying to dispute anyone's ligature experiences. I'd like to know how the non-moving part of the reed, which is secured to the table by the ligature, effects the perceived tone. I was under the impression that the sound was created by the vibrating tip as it closes and opens over the facing curve. The ligature is employed to keep the base of the reed stable. How do different ligatures change the perceived sound of the instrument? What are the acoustic parameters here?
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Author: annev
Date: 2011-11-19 20:16
Ed, your post made me laugh too - thank you! I'll have a thumb, please.
My preference is for a string ligature also. I've tried only a handful of ligatures (maybe six, including the Vandoren Optimum with all its plates) but I keep coming back to the string. Maybe there is something about the eveness of the pressure on the reed. I have the feeling it gives the most freedom to the reed.
Here is another link with two other demonstrations of how to use a string ligature.
http://www.clarinetpages.net/stuff-phil-recommends/the-ligature
The picaset slideshow comes from me (at Phil's request). The video below ("Phil's debut video") shows him putting the ligature on step by step. I've since adopted the twist and loop step he uses at the end and that's great because you can keep your thumb on the reed until the whole ligature is secure.
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Author: annev
Date: 2011-11-20 03:16
Hi Eric,
That's very interesting - thank you for the link. I'll have to try placing the tail in front and see how that feels!
Post Edited (2011-11-20 03:19)
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Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2011-11-20 03:45
I go with tail in front as well. The idea of pulling the ends tight at the end thus allows a better 'tug' without fear of moving the reed.
Funny they don't mention beeswax. I had always run the cord several times across 100% beeswax to give it some tackiness. At least this is the methodology handed down to me from the Netherlands Wind Ensemble of the '70s.
....................Paul Aviles
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Author: oca
Date: 2011-11-20 08:07
Time for me to scientifically debunk the "Soft ligatures choke the reed and mouthpiece by restricting vibrations"
There are three things we need to look at here.
1. The reed
2. The sound
3. The ligature
The reed creates sound waves as air zooms into the the mouthpiece and your lower lip applies pressure on the reed as if an attempt to close up the facing pf the mouthpiece. The reed vibrates as it approaches to keep the mass flow rate of air constant.
The sound comes off the tip of the reed in all directions, which can be summarized with: your mouth, the mouthpiece and down the bore.
Conclusion 1: The total sound energy is created by the thin tip of the reed. The reed creates this energy as long as it can vibrate to and away from the facing of the mouthpiece. Since the butt of the reed is sandwiched by the pressure from the ligature the butt does not vibrate, it does not PRODUCE sound energy.
Thus the ligature, which is only in contact with the butt of the reed, does not muffle the sound at all as there is no sound produced by the butt of the reed; in other words, the butt does not contribute to the sound of the clarinet.
A common misconception is that the butt of the reed PRODUCES energy but it does not PRODUCE; the butt VIBRATES as it recieves vibrations from the mouthpiece. Vibrations of the mouthpiece will be explained below.
Sound projected into your mouth dies, sound into the bore becomes the fingered note, sound into the mouthpiece is our topic of discussion.
The sound waves directed at the mouthpiece would be ideal if they bounced off toward the bore, amplifying the sound with 100% efficiency. However this is not the case. The mouthpiece, usually made of hard rubber, vibrates with the sound energy from the reed. This is called forced vibration. The vibration to the mouthpiece (which does not produce an audiable pitch due to its unresonate material) then travels to the butt of the reed which causes the butt of the reed to vibrate inaudibly, however it does not PRODUCE. Other than the butt, the vibrations from the mouthpiece is also transferred to the ligature.
The butt of the reed vibrates inaudiably and fails to be a producer of sound energy as stated in conclusion 1. What the remaining people that still believe soft ligatures muffle the sound ofnthe clarinet in general can point to the muffling of the mouthpiece by ligature or the muffling of the ligature's vibration because of its soft material.
Conclusion 2: The fraction of energy recieved by the tip of the reed by the mouthpiece does not produce audiable sounds because of its nonresonant material of hard rubber. Nonetheless, it still vibrates. Keep in mind that energy is lost from one object vibrating to another due to the energy going into the air.
The weakened vibrations then go to the ligature (in this case it will be metal). The metal then vibrates with minimal energy. This ligature metal isn't exactly vibrant to start with. Picture a turning fork minimized to 1 gram, and then the tips of the tuning fork are connected to the base of it in a circle. Take a unresonant metal, give it the least sound energy (it is the last to recieve the sound energy) and what do you have? Something along the lines of nothing. The softer ligatures dampen the nothingness even more, in other words: it makes nothing more nothing.
To sum up, the mouthpiece is extremely nonresonant, its sound does not contribute to the sound of the clarinet, and it transfers minimum sound energy to the ligature. The material of the ligature, metal or cloth, dampen the close-to-nothing vibrations to even-closer-to-nothing vibrations.
To conclude, soft ligatures do not dampen in anyway: the sound of the clarinet, the sound PRODUCING portion of the reed, or the mouthpiece.
Oca
the Debunka
Happy Thanksgiving BB
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Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2011-11-20 12:30
Dear Oca,
It is clear that you have the perspective of a scientist. Since you also have fair knowledge of the clarinet I assume you PLAY clarinet. On the other hand it also sounds as though you have NOT personally experienced any difference from one type of ligature to another at all. I find this a little hard to believe since it's as common an experience as feeling the difference from one mouthpiece to another.
It IS debatable if any difference can be picked out by a listener at some distance (in any sort of 'double blind test') but I (if not others) have come to the conclusion that there are differences that affect how the PERFORMER feels about the end result, and THIS difference can make the PERFORMER more content. This difference in 'attitude' would necessarily affect the performance and in turn the listener's experience .............none of which is measurable.
I'd also like to throw in that only until recently a purely scientific view of the bumblebee's aerodynamics would have had them completely incapable of flight ....... though they kept right on flying.
....................Paul Aviles
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Author: Mark Charette
Date: 2011-11-20 12:41
oca wrote:
> Time for me to scientifically debunk the "Soft ligatures choke
> the reed and mouthpiece by restricting vibrations"
See much conclusion. Still waiting for any crumb of science.
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Author: kilo
Date: 2011-11-20 17:35
The element of unmeasurable subjectivity has been introduced and, having read and participated in these discussions before, that sort of closes the door on science. Because whatever quantifiable detail is brought up as proving one point or another is pretty well trumped when someone says, "Well I can hear a difference." On occasion I've even detected the subtle imputation that this sensitivity implies superior musicianship — or ears at least.
One or two things still make me wonder about comparing ligatures though. If you play one reed on one mouthpiece with one ligature enough to get a pretty good feeling for its response and then you remove this ligature and secure the reed with a new one, how do you know that the reed is in the exact same position as it was before? And what about the effect of the reed softening a bit as it warms up? How do we reduce variables to the absolute minimum?
I believe Paul has mentioned before that a player he knows gets great results by only tightening his ligature enough to hold the reed on, leaving it much looser than many of us do. I've heard others say this as well. Then we read this statement on the Lomax site linked above:
Quote:
"“ A loosely held vibrator is a poor vibrator”. [...] However, whatever material is used, the important thing is that the reed must be held as firmly and securely as possible to produce the maximum tonal vibrations.
Fortunately I'm happy with all the ligatures I own — decades of working in woodshops has probably deteriorated my hearing enough so that they all sound pretty much the same.
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Author: Ken Shaw ★2017
Date: 2011-11-20 18:48
At least in my experience, Lomax is correct. If I put a ligature on loose (as advised by Rovner, for example), I feel a mushy and non-vibrant response, no matter which ligature I use. For me, any ligature (including Rovner) works best when it is tightened all the way snug and the screw(s) then backed off 1/4 turn.
All I would add is that the ligature shouldn't put too much pressure on the edges of the butt.
Ken Shaw
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Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2011-11-20 19:26
I too find the tightening/non tightening issue frustrating. Certainly in the audiophile world one needs to have a stable platform for whatever is doing the vibrating so that you get ONLY the vibrations you trying to produce (and not take away or add anything extraneous).
The reed tip IS the only thing actually getting the air column in motion so it would seem that's all that should count. In reality though many items within the clarinet system resonate, and resonate with more authority than logic or even science tells us.
My assertion about the tightness (or lack thereof) is really my way of dealing with a large portion of this audience not hearing much difference. Perhaps many of you don't screw down your reed within an inch of its life the way I usually do. When I DO address the reed delicately there is much less difference between my Rovner Light and my Charles Bay gold Baroque or the Peter Spriggs Floating Rail ligature (I wish the tightness would have affected the price of these ligatures!).
..................Paul Aviles
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