 The Clarinet BBoard
|
Author: klook
Date: 2011-11-12 01:32
Finally picked this baby up, won at a local auction.
See pics here: http://www.flickr.com/photos/65460205@N07/sets/72157628107768806/
Notice, no "Crampon" or "Auguste" in the logo. Fill me in on what this can be.
The instrument is in fantastic condition, the wood is amazingly dense and tight, no issues just needs an overhaul.
The downside is its missing the original barrel and bell. I've got a ton of donor bells, but in this case the bore size is quite small at .570" and I don't have a single barrel that size, and I checked all 50 or so here. I don't plan on keeping the instrument or I would just have one made by someone.
Seems to be Bb LP but who can say without playing it.
I'd love to know more, I'm not sure what to do with it, I mostly work on Alberts but this one seemed so interesting that I had to bid! I may just Ebay it but who knows.
mark
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: SteveG_CT
Date: 2011-11-12 03:27
Definitely an old one. It wouldn't surprise me if this one is pre-1920 judging from the style of the keywork. To that end you may want to check for any markings regarding pitch on this instrument. It may be old enough that "French Pitch" was used, meaning that it may be tuned to A=435Hz. Check to see if there are any numbers engraved near the bell joint. Some makers would engrave either an 870 or 880 there to denote whether the instrument was pitched for 435Hz or 440Hz (not sure if Buffet did this or not).
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Jack Kissinger
Date: 2011-11-12 04:12
Warning: total speculation follows.
There is a brief history of the Buffet company on the Buffet website. Some important dates, according to the information there:
1825 The company was founded by Denis Buffet-Auger.
1830 Jean-Louis Buffet (Denis' son) took over the business.
1836 Jean-Louis married Zoé Crampon resulting in the Buffet Crampon brand name.
1839 Louis-Auguste Buffet (Jean-Louis' uncle) and Theobald Boehm first exhibited their "Boehm system" clarinet.
1844 The Buffet logo used today made its first appearance. (This was for Jean-Louis' company. Remember that Louis-Auguste had his own company.)
1850 The Buffet Crampon factory was built in Mantes-la-Ville, primarily to make Boehm system clarinets.
If this clarinet was made by Jean-Louis' company, it would appear to date from between 1939 when the first Boehm clarinet appeared and 1844 when the Buffet-Crampon logo appeared. As I recall, you said the clarinet has no serial number. I think that would be consistent with its being handmade before the opening of the Buffet factory. The "dots" on keys where there are screws holding flat springs are also consistent with a very old instrument. My oldest clarinet, a Boehm system C clarinet made by Laubé no later than 1898, does not have those "dots."
Another possibility is that it was made by Auguste-Louis with an earlier logo than the one we usually see with his clarinets. If that's the case, its manufacture could have been later than 1844. Given the fact that Denis' company seems to have preceded Auguste's, I would be more inclined to associate the logo with Denis and subsequently Jean-Louis.
According to the Buffet site, Denis was known for a 13-key clarinet. Perhaps, if you can find pictures of one of his clarinets, you could verify that the logo was his. Or perhaps if you could establish that Auguste did not use a lyre in his logo, you could infer that the clarinet was made by Jean-Louis.
Best regards,
jnk
Post Edited (2011-11-12 04:14)
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: klook
Date: 2011-11-12 13:09
Yes I looked over the clarinet VERY carefully and there are no numbers, no idea of pitch HP LP etc .
I've had a hard time turning up logos on these old ones, I have found another fellow with 2 of these clarinets with the same logo, Albert system, and he also has no idea what they are, just that they are very very old.
Pretty interesting. I wish I had the original barrel, I would repad and play. I wonder what it sounds like? But if its as old as it seems it could be, well, I think I might not want to touch it, get it in the hands of someone who wants a piece of history or whatever.
Anyone else have an idea on this one?
mark
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: chris moffatt
Date: 2011-11-12 14:00
The National Music Museum lists an albert by BC with the mark you describe (NMM 4463), maybe they could tell you more about this. Looking at the keywork I'd say most probably 1890 - 1910 +/-. It looks very similar to an old BC/Carl Fischer horn I have from that era, except for the guide for the top trill key which looks a little more modern
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: klook
Date: 2011-12-01 18:38
Here we go folks, bringing this back as I still have no idea what this clarinet is but have made some headway.
http://www.flickr.com/photos/65460205@N07/sets/72157628107768806/
This is the same link as before but I added pics of the clarinet stripped down.
I initially listed the clarinet as-is on Ebay because I just am so swamped for time.
The response was lackluster and a large part of this has to do with the uncertainty of it. What is it? How old?
I got this thing for very little money and I assure you I don't think its worth a million dollars, I'm more interested in the history.
Anyway I'm going to repad the thing. This will happen in the next few days, the wood is finally oiled after being very dry. I also visited with Marc Jacobi today who has been working on clarinets for 35 years, he helped shorten the barrel socket for me.
He says he thinks this is a fake! That they wouldn't have made a clarinet like this in 1850.
This is based on the hypothesis that this could be a pre-Crampon Buffet, which would be very old.
I just don't know. Why would someone go to so much work to fake a Buffet, and why wouldn't they use the real logo as opposed to this one?
Here's something I noticed though:
The key rods are straight sided. If you've worked on Buffets (and Cousenon's too) you know the key rods have a small stepped head on them. This clarinet does not have them. Has anyone ever seen a Buffet without that feature?
Also there is one fellow I've exchanged messages with, he's on this board too, he has an old C Buffet that has this very logo, Albert system, his favorite and most used clarinet ever.
I'd love to get to the bottom of this.
Fake or not? Whatcha think?
mark
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Ken Shaw ★2017
Date: 2011-12-01 21:57
I have a pair of 1908 Buffets, which have logos pretty close to those used today, so your instrument dates from before then. One good sign is the lyre stamp, which is not identical to the design used today, but is fairy close. The left-hand keys for E/B and F#/C# have the hand-filed contour of older Buffets. On the other hand, the sliver key for the right ring finger has no "swoosh" shaped attachments.
Buffet serial numbers began in 1885 with number 1A, http://www.woodwind.org/clarinet/Equipment/HowOld/Buffet.html so your clarinet is probably older than that.
Good luck restoring it. You'll need a barrel and bell significantly different from current designs.
Ken Shaw
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: klook
Date: 2011-12-01 22:16
Ken
Any thoughts on the barrel? It didn't have one so I'm starting with one that matches the bore, which is .570". Its 67mm long.
The only other clarinet with this stamp that I have info on is an Albert system, its Bb LP and the owner tells me the barrel, which is original, is 57mm long!!
Thats a really short barrel. I can have the one I have now shortened if need be.
I just finished up repadding the upper joint and it came out pretty well. Tomorrow hopefully finish the bottom and give a play test.
mark
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: klook
Date: 2011-12-02 16:48
Okay this is exciting folks, at least for me.
Late last night I finished up working on this clarinet, my family was asleep so I couldn't play but this morning, once everyone was up, I have it a play.
Its very nice! The clarion register especially is very very sweet and singing.
I was very surprised by the intonation because I thought I might have issues with the barrel etc. The 67mm barrel I picked to use and had fit to the tenon socket (lathe work) was used based on the bore. The clarinet has a small bore .570", the closest barrel I could find was approx .575".
Anyway it plays right in tune top to bottom except for some of the throat tones which can be lipped, but I think I can also tweek this with key height openings etc.
The 12ths are very close.
I played the clarinet for a long time, as did my wife, and of course when I checked with the tuner again before I finished everything had gone sharp. I couldn't pull the barrel much because the tenon needs recorked (forgot to do that!) and it only fits snug all the way in.
So anyway, I'm not so sure about selling this one. I like it. I really only play on old Alberts but......well......this one sounds so good.
Still not what to think about its origins.
I almost forgot to add, as far as a detail for ID'ing the age of this one, the C#/G# tonehole is actually NOT just a hole in the clarinet, as it is in so many of the old clarinets. Weird!
mark
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
The Clarinet Pages
|
 |
.jpg){kind=small}
.jpg){kind=small}
.jpg){kind=small}
.jpg){kind=small}
.jpg){kind=small}
.jpg){kind=small}
