 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: sfalexi
Date: 2011-11-07 01:06
I use a Buffet Evette and Schaeffer clarinet from about 1970. The problem (not a bad problem at all actually!) is that it is AWESOME. Better than almost any other clarinet I've tried (multiple R13s, opus, festivals, prestiges, etc. etc.). It's so good, my instructor tried it and said, "I wouldn't worry about ever upgrading your horn." and "Actually, there's a lot of things about this horn I like better than my personal horn."
The problem is, the keywork is hold, platings coming off at points, and the key action is just not as nice and good as an R13. Maybe it's the lack of bluesteel springs. Maybe it's the screws that aren't flush and stick out just that much, or maybe cause everything's just 30 years old.
I'd like to save up some cash and get a REALLY REALLY good professional overhaul, but I'm wondering how MUCH money that could cost, and WHERE to get it done. Last I looked at the brannens, they state they only work on professional model horns. I understand the meaning behind their policy (so as not to be stuck trying to "polish a turd"), but you think they'd believe me if I try to explain that while in make/model it's a student horn however it certainly is NOT in playability?
Or are there other techs that could do this? I would like to even splurge to get the keys replated silver instead of nickel as I prefer the feel of silver plating.
Alexi
US Army Japan Band
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2011-11-07 01:46
If you're willing to pay the cost of a complete overhaul including a full replate, then I can't see why anyone who is capable of carrying out this kind of work on pro level instruments should refuse to work on an E&S clarinet as it'll still be the same amount of work to rebuild a '70s E&S as it is to rebuild a '70s R13 that comes in for a full rebuild and replate.
If you like this clarinet over everything else you've tried and aren't willing to part with it, then I can't see any reason not to go ahead with what you want doing as the cost of a complete rebuild is still far less than the cost of a new instrument - and you'll still have the instrument you like but now only better.
While I mostly work on pro level instruments, I still work on good quality intermediate and student instruments - if an instrument is uneconomical to repair (such as a £50 Chinese clarinet off eBay) then I'd tell them they're wasting their money. But if a customer wants their 1987 plastic Buffet B12 or Yamaha YCL-26II overhauled with cork pads and are willing to pay for it, then I won't refuse even if they could quite easily go out and buy a brand new B12 or YCL-250 for around the same price as the cost of a full overhaul.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: Franklin Liao
Date: 2011-11-07 05:41
The only time that I've the serious drive to see something like this through was that of a sudden impulse to take a Lyrique and have all the keys and posts ripped out of it so as to replace them with forged keys. The sheer economy behind such an act however totally dissuaded me from seeking that route...
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Author: SteveG_CT
Date: 2011-11-07 06:42
I would think that most good techs can significantly improve the action of your keys. You will probably want to have all of the rod screws lapped to the corresponding hinge tubes using a bench motor and lapping compound (new rod screws may need to be made). This was done on one of my saxophones during it's last overhaul and it made a huge difference in how smooth the key action felt. All of the key slop and grittiness was completely eliminated (wasn't much to begin with but you can definitely tell the difference).
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Author: Jack Kissinger
Date: 2011-11-07 12:59
If you're stationed in/near Augusta, it might make sense to find out who the clarinetists in the Atlanta Symphony use for repair work. If you want to know whether the Brannens will work on your instrument, contact them. They are the only ones who can give you a definitive answer. (And the worst they can do is say, "No.") All anybody on this board can do is speculate. A number of people on this Board have praised John Butler in Sugarland, Texas, for his work. His website currently lists a late model E&S for sale. Vytas Krass might also be worth contacting.
Sometimes, especially if swedging isn't necessary, you can dramatically improve key action on an old clarinet by removing the rods, cleaning off the gunk (and cleaning out the key tubes), and putting a drop of key oil on the rods when you reassemble the instrument.
Best regards,
jnk
Edit: BTW, every E&S, I've seen has blue steel needle springs. I wasn't aware that Buffet has ever used anything else on any of its clarinets. And I wouldn't categorize the keywork on the E&S as "student" grade.
Post Edited (2011-11-07 13:06)
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Author: sfalexi
Date: 2011-11-07 16:15
Maybe it's not the keywork and just needing of a deep clean of the rods and screws. I'll try taking them apart on my own and perhaps taking Mr. Ridenour's advice of using a little bit of teflon to smooth out some of the action. I'll try it at home and just carefully clean and replace everything. If that doesn't work as well as I'd hoped, I'll save up some $$$ and contact a tech. Never used John Butler or Vytas Krass, but I haven't seen much (if any) negative impressions of their work. At least nothing I can remember.
Still interested in silver-plating it....I know Backun does that, but I'd have to check out what other techs recommend.
Alexi
US Army Japan Band
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2011-11-07 17:20
If you're having all the keywork, pillars and other non-ferrous parts silver plated (except for the bell ring as they're permanently fixed in place), then the screws and rods will have to be refitted to the key barrels afterwards as a layer of silver will be plated inside the key barrels and countersunk ends of the long rods.
And also the insides of the pillars will also be made smaller so they'll have to be reamed out for the screws to fit unless they're worn out and the plating takes up the difference between the pillar holes and the rod screws, so the keywork should be a good fit after plating and fitting.
Trill keys are a pain in the whatsit to fit after plating - not so much the upper (B/C) trill key as that's mounted on the rod screw between the pillars as normal, but the lower (Bb) one takes more doing to refit it as it's mounted over the upper trill key barrel on most clarinets (apart from Leblanc/Noblet/Normandy/Vito and also Backun and Howarth clarinets and a few others where both trill keys are mounted separately).
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: ww.player
Date: 2011-11-07 18:26
I have an E&S from 1971. I kept it from the 100's of horns that I have bought for various students through the years because it plays so well. I use it as a backup/student loaner horn.
The K series clarinets were considered pro instruments in their day and only sold for 10% less than the R13's. The main difference is the "Master" v. the polycylindrical bore. Of course the R13 also has some improvements in the action, but nothing too significant. With a custom barrel, I find the E&S close to the equal of my 1960's R13's. While I prefer the sound and projection of my R13's slightly, the E&S plays better in tune.
As far as overhauls, I imagine anyone would do it if you're willing to pay the price. I would be cautious about putting big bucks into an overhaul, though, since the resell on them is only in the $400 range, perhaps $500 if the keywork is silver plated. If you end up finding another horn and selling the E&S, you would recoup virtually none of the cost of an expensive overhaul.
Post Edited (2011-11-07 18:34)
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Author: sfalexi
Date: 2011-11-07 21:21
I do understand about the custom barrel. I recently realized just how much of a difference a barrel can make on tone and tuning. And I believe that next to a mouthpiece, it's the best bang for the buck to getting a sound you like. I believe moreso than the clarinet. I depend on the clarinet for tuning, and this horn is GREAT!
I can see the overhaul costing more than the resale, but when you factor in that I find this clarinet better than $3000 horns, that kinda washes out a big buck overhaul.
I hadn't thought of the extra layers of plating adding enough thickness to make it troublesome. Kinda forgot about plating being LAYERS of thickness.
At least I know I'm not the only one holding a "student" model to such high regard and I'm glad there are techs out there that realize each instrument CAN be based on it's own instead of equating a brand or model with "good" and others as "not worth my time."
Alexi
US Army Japan Band
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2011-11-07 22:14
Plating only becomes troublesome if you haven't got the means to deal with it once it's been done, but the majority of woodwind specialists are usually tooled up for total rebuilds which includes refitting keys and other parts after plating.
I'm having a full Boehm Selmer CT of mine replated and the minimum thickness of silver plate the platers are doing is 25 microns (which is the standard thickness Howarth specify - it's being plated by Buffet's platers who've done excellent plating jobs for me in the past), so it will need all the screws and keys (plus a couple of pillars) refitted after plating due to the extra thickness of metal they'll all have.
But if it's your favourite clarinet and you're not planning in letting it go for a very long time, then who's to stop you doing what you think is best? While it may not seem to some people and economical thing to go over the top on having an older instrument completely rebuilt and replated, if you think it's something well worth doing and haven't found any clarinet on the market that can touch it, then go ahead and do what you consider is right for both you and the instrument.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: Jack Kissinger
Date: 2011-11-08 02:39
"The K series clarinets were considered pro instruments in their day and only sold for 10% less than the R13's."
Sorry, but that is not correct. I have a price list from 1968 (by which time, E&S clarinets had polycylindrical bores, BTW) published by Carl Fischer, Buffet's U.S. importer at the time. The price for an R13 Bb clarinet on this list is $435. The price of an E&S Bb is $250 -- a bit more than 40% less. Perhaps you are confusing the E&S with the Buffet Academy Model (R113 in the price list) that sold for $375. An E&S Master Model, in the same price list, was $299.50.
IMO, the E&S was a good quality clarinet but it was not considered a professional model. There are some differences in keywork design but, according to Buffet's advertising, the difference in price was primarily due to the amount of hand finishing and final tuning the E&S models received compared to the R13s.
Best regards,
jnk
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Author: clarnibass
Date: 2011-11-08 04:46
"Student" keys can be "upgraded" to "pro" depending on what makes them "student" keys. Is it that they are just not fit as well, this can be fixed (might not be cheap). Is the position of some of the keys not as comfortable? Mostly can be improved. Can be fixed too but can sometimes be a bit drastic. Are linkage not well designed? Can be fixed. Almost everything can be fixed or improved. Unless you have keys that are just made from a bad material and then you can't "fix" it really, you have to change them, probably not a realistic option in most cases.
The overhaul is worth it if:
1) The clarinet could benefit from an overhaul, which should make it as good as it can be pretty much.
2) You can afford it.
3) It is your favorite clarinet regardless of its cost.
Re (3), if this is your favorite clarinet it doesn't really matter if the overhaul is a good value or not money-wise, assuming it needs an overhaul. Unless you can get a clarinet like as much for the cost of this clarinet + overhaul this is the least expensive option for you. You are not investing in a resale, you are investing in what you love to do, playing that instrument.
You can have the keys related and then someone will need to refit them, not an issue except cost for you.
Since your clarinet is a decent model i.e. without inherently badly made keys, it's only a matter of figuring it what is causing problems and fixing and improving that, same as what any good repairer is always doing.
>> and perhaps taking Mr. Ridenour's advice of using a little bit of teflon to smooth out some of the action. <<
I don't like this approach. I've tried it a lot. I have used it as a band-aid on very cheap instruments. Here is what I found. When put the exact amount to make the key feel "tight" and smooth, it is very fast to develop some play again. To make it last longer, you'd have to put too much, that it feels very slightly resistant at first and even then it will develop some play after not too long. I just found it an unreliable band-aid that is ok as an emergency or extremely low budget etc. For this reason I've never charged for it.
>> You will probably want to have all of the rod screws lapped to the corresponding hinge tubes using a bench motor and lapping compound (new rod screws may need to be made). <<
If keys are loose, lapping them with their rods will do nothing but possibly make them even looser. Lapping can be done to fit a slightly too tight rod in a key. So only a resistant or a new oversized rod might be lapped. Lapping might not need to be necessary to fit keys and won't improve anything for loose keys.
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Author: ww.player
Date: 2011-11-08 16:41
Jack, I remember going to try out out Buffet clarinets for students when I first started teaching. A good friend, a woodwind rep for a very large music conglomerate at the time, and I had a long conversation about why the MSRP's of the R13's and the E&S's were so close. This was significantly later than your price list, though.
Anyway, the reason for my post wasn't to try and nail down ancient Buffet pricing. I was pointing out that these were not student clarinets to the OP. Buffet had two lines below these, the Evette wood and the Evette plastic. The E&S were at least Buffet's upper end intermediate instruments of that time period.
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