 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: alanporter
Date: 2011-11-05 01:44
I have seen it said on this board that the moisture that forms in the bore is condensation from lung moisture, not spit.
However, my dentist gave me some red lozenges to dissolve in my mouth, to stain any placque that I may have, and I decided to play my clarinet before rinsing my mouth out, after sucking on them, (deliberately, I may add). When I swabbed out my horn with a white swab, it came out slightly pink, showing, I believe, that the moisture in the bore was not only lung condensation, but also saliva.
While this researech will not gain me a Nobel Prize, I can, at least, tell my dentist that it did not stain my teeth.
Alan
tiaroa@shaw.ca
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Author: SteveG_CT
Date: 2011-11-05 01:52
Seems pretty reasonable that there will be at least some cast-off saliva from the reed collecting in the bore.
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Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2011-11-05 16:15
Some particulates are getting through........... and might I add that's a good sign that you're at least applying an adequate amount of force to your airstream - Bravo!. However, what is accumulating in your bore is ALREADY there. It is the moisture in the air that is condensing because you've just heated the air (quite substantially) over the temperature of the surrounding air (outside the bore) and as a result made it warmer than the inside surface of you clarinet. Thus the hot, moist air becomes liquid against the cold(er) bore wall.
Ever leave your car outside (and uncovered) overnight and find on a 48 degree day with a dew point of 45 that the car is covered in water?
Same thing.
.....................Paul Aviles
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Author: Ed Palanker
Date: 2011-11-06 02:29
This has been a controversial subject here for some time. It is my belief that at least with some of us, me included, play with a lot of saliva in the bore. I said this many times and I'll repeat it. I play wet, I have to swab my clarinet, and bass clarinet I may add, constantly because it get a lot of saliva in it when I play. My dentist confirms that I build up an unusually large amount of saliva. It doesn't matter if my clarinet is cold or warm, if the environment is warm, cold, humid or dry once I begin to play I have to constantly swab. When I'm practicing I have to swab out every 10-15 minutes and even then after an hour or two I have to dry my pads. No way is that simply "moisture". Some people play wet and some people don't. I've seen players play a half recital and never swab, I have to swab after every couple of movement or I start to get bubbles in the pads. I sit next to other players in the same concert hall and I have to swab out 3-4 times as much as they do. One player hardly swabs out at all, the other two swab but not nearly as much a I do. We all play in the same place all the time.
You just can't convince people that don't play wet that a good deal of the moisture in the clarinet, more like big bubbles then simply moisture, is saliva and they will never believe it because they don't have that problem It's like someone that is not afraid of hights can't understand how someone else can panic when they go up high. So I'm not going to try to convince them, but I play with a lot of salvia and I agree with you Alan because you're right. ESP eddiesclarinet.com
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Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2011-11-06 02:48
Fair enough Ed, but I think yours is the exception to the rule. I have had what I call "slurp moments." I'm not entirely sure what I do, or how it exactly happens, but sometimes when I'm overextending myself on some phrase I'll stop and a good stream of saliva has just dribbled down the side of my mouthpiece clear across the barrel and the top part of the first joint. To me though if this amount of saliva ever tried to make its way past the vibrating reed, there would be complete stoppage of sound.
...................Paul Aviles
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Author: Dharma
Date: 2011-11-06 16:27
After about ten minutes of playing, a slow but steady stream of drips exudes from the bell of my clarinet.
I am a complete beginner, though, so that has to be considered.
-----
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A horse is drawn to water, but a pencil must be lead.
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Author: Ed Palanker
Date: 2011-11-06 17:18
Paul, that is strange, never seen that with a student. I think in that case it builds up and has to go someplace, in your case it doesn't go into the horn. In my case it's a steady stream so there's no build up, just a continuous stream that I can't control or even notice but it never interferes with the vibration of the reed because it never builds up. I've had a few students with the same problem. I've had students that played a whole lesson without having to swab and I've had some that if they didn't swab there would be drips coming out of the bell and the pads all soaked so I would encourage them to swab at least half way through. ESP
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Author: EEBaum
Date: 2011-11-06 20:07
In regards to the experiment, I'd be interested to see the results if you swabbed each segment of the horn separately. How much of the pink made it to the bell, compared to the mouthpiece, and everywhere in between.
On occasion, I'll play about 10 minutes solid of throat growls, spit noises, and other heavily mouth-gunk-goes-into-instrument noises into a bass clarinet. This produces an extremely viscous substance that lingers in strands like drool off a baby's chin. Very different from pure condensation. However, I don't know how much is saliva and how much is something else (phlegm, mucus, breakfast, whatever). Actually, have we considered the possibility of non-saliva fluids in the instrument? Perhaps we're arguing whether something is A or B when in fact it has a measure of C.
Different people's concentrations of saliva can differ, but if a liquid is coming out of your instrument in rivers rather than strands, I'd guess there's a dominating component of condensation. Granted, I don't know the condensation:saliva threshold between runny and gooey. And it could very well be that, in the case of people like Ed, the saliva is much less viscous than mine, and having not examined others' saliva, I can't be sure.
In any case, a bass clarinet can accumulate liquid throughout the bore, liquid that, due to the neck, cannot possibly be saliva if you've kept the instrument upright. You might try comparing that liquid to the stuff that comes out of your soprano clarinet, and compare those to a loogie.
-Alex
www.mostlydifferent.com
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Author: saxlite
Date: 2011-11-07 15:01
The moisture forming in your clarinet (saxophone or whatever) is mostly condensation of the moisture contained in the air expelled from your lungs. You can easily demonstrate this by simply breathing on a mirror- it will quickly fog as the lung moisture condenses on the cold mirror surface. Or, go outdoors on a cold day and exhale through your mouth- notice the cloud that forms. You should be aware that this is certainly not due to saliva. Of course, it is also possible to add some saliva to the air expelled while playing as well, which may vary with the player.
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Author: Caroline Smale
Date: 2011-11-07 16:25
I have seen descriptions in the past of the different blowing techniques used by wind players refered to as "warm" breath and "cold" breath.
There are also varying degrees of embouchure and air stream strength which must have some bearing on the amount of condensation produced.
Myself I tend to use a fairly close set up with firm (and double) embouchure and a relatively high pressure airsteam.
I also tend to produce a higher than average amount of condensation if you look at the moisture puddles below my clarinet compared to many colleagues.
According to my hygenist I produce a relatively copious flow of saliva (which she declares a good thing) but this is easily stripped away from my embouchure and doesn't get in the way of playing.
I swab regularly throughout sessions and inspecting the bore before swabbing shows an even film of moisture all around the bore, particularly in colder conditions. Saliva would not produce this effect I am convinced.
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Author: dansil
Date: 2011-11-09 02:43
This is a recurring and somewhat pointless topic which nevertheless continues to provoke strong reactions. However it seems obvious to me that BOTH condensation and saliva contribute to the fluid which accumulates in our instruments.
As students we are universally strongly advised to avoid eating and drinking just before playing up our instruments to avoid getting fragments of food and drink into our instruments. That advice surely comes from experienced teachers who KNOW the appropriate advice to give their students and logically if food and fluid contaminants can get into our instruments and clog up pads etc then our saliva must also get into our instruments.
Like others who have posted to this thread I play "wet" and never cease to disgust my partner whenever I swab out my soprano and bass clarinets and drain copious fluid from them! Saliva collects in the crook of my bass clarinet and condensate down the bore of the instrument. However virtually nothing collects in the bell (except after a very prolonged session) which suggests that condensate contributes little to the volume of the fluid which otherwise collects in the crook and the upper bore.
The soprano clarinets have no crook so saliva just runs down and collects in the tenons and drips out the end.
So the simple answer to the question whether saliva or condensation of exhaled water vapour accounts for the fluid accumulating in our instruments is that it's not one or the other, it's both!
Cheers, Danny
=========
a family doctor in Castlemaine, rural Victoria, Australia for the past 30+ years, also a plucked string musician (mandolin, classical guitar) for far too long before discovering the clarinet - what a missed opportunity!
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Author: EEBaum
Date: 2011-11-09 03:53
"However virtually nothing collects in the bell (except after a very prolonged session) which suggests that condensate contributes little to the volume of the fluid which otherwise collects in the crook and the upper bore."
I wouldn't say that at all. Condensation, IIRC, is caused by humid air combined with changes in temperature. There is a greater abundance of humid air and temperature changes close to your mouthpiece than to the bell of the bass clarinet, which receives little impact of the air you blow through it.
Just because the crook has more saliva, doesn't mean it has less condensate. More likely, it has more of both.
-Alex
www.mostlydifferent.com
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Author: dansil
Date: 2011-11-09 06:07
Hi Alex
I don't totally disagree with you. Condensate from one's breath will be maximal close to where one exhales. The crook of a bass clarinet will collect condensate and saliva without the fluid trickling/pouring down the bore unless the instrument is deliberately or accidentally tilted and rotated in just the right way. The crook mostly made of metal will radiate heat and cool more quickly than other parts of the instrument and therefore will condense expired water vapour quickly.
There is a long way for the remaining condensate to go before it reaches the bell of a bass clarinet and by then most of it will have been deposited in the crook and the upper bore as well as being vented out of the holes of notes higher than the bottom end of the horn. One doesn't play low C all that often!
Some players are "wetter" than others (purely anecdotal observation). However most human beings will humidify their inhaled air and thereby their exhaled breath by about the same amount. Therefore the difference between the amount of collected fluid in instruments played in the same venue at the same time is surely due to the difference in the amount of saliva they blow into their instruments.
Cheers, Danny
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Author: Caroline Smale
Date: 2011-11-09 23:22
I do not believe that all players humidify their breath by same degree.
There are so many different playing styles, different wind pressures and wind volumes involved that the amount of humidity carried into the bore is going to vary significantly between players in the same environment.
As noted earlier in thread I am a relatively wet player but am certain that the vast majority of that moisture is not saliva.
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Author: BobD
Date: 2011-11-10 11:29
I don't know that anyone has ever claimed that some spit doesn't get into the bore.
Bob Draznik
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Author: JJAlbrecht
Date: 2011-11-10 20:13
Seriously, why do so many people here obsess over this issue? Does it really matter? Swab the clarinet periodically and after you are finished playing, and stop worrying about it.
Jeff
“Everyone discovers their own way of destroying themselves, and some people choose the clarinet.” Kalman Opperman, 1919-2010
"A drummer is a musician's best friend."
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Author: pewd
Date: 2011-11-10 23:13
wheres the 'like' button on Jeff's last post...
- Paul Dods
Dallas, Texas
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Author: Franklin Liao
Date: 2011-11-11 00:47
With my own situation, my own findings were that they are a mixture of condensation and saliva... it was not a controlled experiment by any stretch, but the viscosity of the liquid, just by pouring the recovered liquid against water and my own saliva, showed that this liquid was clearly not that of condensed moisture.
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Author: dansil
Date: 2011-11-12 04:00
One simple way to sort out this issue is to try quietly breathing out through the clarinet instead of blowing with an embouchure to create musical notes. If one has the patience to do this non-stop for a period of time, say 10-20 minutes, and measure the amount of fluid which will surely be entirely condensate one can repeat the exercise actually playing the instrument normally for a similar period of time and again measure how much fluid is generated.
I suspect that some readers of this thread may argue that quiet breathing won't force the same volume of expired air into the clarinet as playing would and I don't have any way of countering this argument except so suggest that an alternative to using a period of time for breathing out through or playing the clarinet would be actually counting out a number of breaths expired through the instrument or playing the instrument and ensuring that the lungs are filled to roughly the same extent during quiet exhalation as one would while playing.
At best these are approximations but there may be a sufficient diference in the amount of fluid collecting in the clarinet to comment upon.
Cheers, Danny
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Author: Caroline Smale
Date: 2011-11-12 19:39
Just consider for a moment the situation with brass instruments e.g. trumpet, tuba, French horn etc.
During the course of playing large amounts of fluid collect in all the various slides and sections of those instruments most of which are a long distance from the mouthpiece and invariably in a path that involves the air flow going uphill at least for a large part of its journey through the instrument.
Any saliva would stop short at the very first uphill section yet just see how much fluid is collected at points much further down the line.
This fluid cannot possibly be saliva unless the player performs handstands during performance.
If you want the ultimate clarinet test then try playing with the clarinet angled above horizontal (just as in all those old jazz adverts) and see whether or not fluid still collects in the bore.
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