 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: pinky
Date: 2011-11-01 01:04
OK so I've been doing some research on legato (on this board and elsewhere), as this is my my current main course of concern with my playing, and discovered through my reading the problem of finger popping - where when there is a soft air pop sound when the finger depresses on a hole - something I had always accepted as being unavoidable on the clarinet.
I should continue by saying that I am a professional freelance clarinetist - on the audition circuit.
I have been attempting some very very slow practice on Rose 1, Baerrman (Hite) scales and Vade-Mecum to try and hone in on the problem, with some, but not much progress.
I wanted some advice on how to approach fixing this as it is becoming all invasive in my practice. Maybe this is necessary for a while to try and fix this problem or am I making a mountain out of a molehill and running the risk of neglecting other areas of practice?
I'm also a bit worried that the very small pad size and boniness of my fingers (particularly right hand ring finger) are part of the problem. All my colleagues who play with a beautiful legato have nice chunky fingers that seem to easily cushion the holes.
Any guidelines for how you or you're teacher explained fixing this issue would be greatly appreciated.
Thanks
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2011-11-01 01:08
Do your colleagues notice it when you play or is it only you that can hear it?
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: Katrina
Date: 2011-11-01 01:22
If your colleagues notice it, as Chris suggests, the way to work on it is slow delicate finger motion. Check out the Bonade Clarinetist's Compendium for a discussion of his method of absolutely smooth legato. FWIW I have fairly skinny fingers and can usually achieve legato decently. I have a Master's in clarinet performance but did not go the symphony audition route and now teach private lessons and play in a Balkan folk band.
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Author: EEBaum
Date: 2011-11-01 02:03
Mountain out of molehill, imho, and very poor bang for the buck compared to other facets of technique and musicianship you could spend your time on.
-Alex
www.mostlydifferent.com
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Author: pinky
Date: 2011-11-01 03:42
My colleagues have not mentioned it - and tend to agree with the mountain of molehill argument, but I am convinced that it would be perceptible in an exposed legato phrase (the slow solo from Tchaik 6 or Rach 2 for example). I do remember one teacher being unhappy with the finger legato on the f-d interval in the opening phrase of the mozart concerto, but I don't think I fully understood then the concepts he was talking about.
I will definitely check out the Bonade condeminium, thanks for the tip!
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Author: concertmaster3
Date: 2011-11-01 11:52
I've actually been working on "legato fingers" with my clarinet teacher, and have been passing it on in my oboe teaching (cork pads make for a very loud instrument!).
She suggests starting with slow movement, finger something like clarion F and G. Starting on G, very slowly move your index finger to finger F, and you're going to want to feel like you are moving through oil (or some other high viscosity liquid). When she worked with me, she put her finger under the knuckle of my first finger and pushed up as I was pushing down. When you lift the finger, you want to feel like you're "falling up", (a feeling that I'd describe almost as pushing down first, and letting the finger carefully spring up).
While moving this slow, you'll want to hear the finger glissando. As you speed it up, you'll get the finger glissando out of the way and have a nice, clean legato movement.
I hope I'm explaining this correctly, as it's early here!
Ron Ford
Woodwind Specialist
Performer/Teacher/Arranger
http://www.RonFordMusic.com
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Author: William
Date: 2011-11-01 18:32
I find that a very slight lessening of the breath when going to the second note helps the smooth transition--legato. My college clarinet teacher, William Dominic, made me play legato scales for my entire freshman year and ingrained it as permanent in my playing. I've always thanked him for that--even though, at the time, it wasn't the most fun.
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Author: Buster
Date: 2011-11-01 19:22
It could be quite important to play a legato passage with no "pop", or perhaps it may be called for depending on the setting.
For instance, the acoustics of the hall you are playing in may call for a bit more, or less, "pop" on the beginning of certain notes, Even the aforementioned solos can require a bit of adjustment based on the hall.
Playing in a quite live acoustic can call for a bit more clarity (or "pop" if you will) to sound precise in the audience- if that is the effect you wish to achieve. This is just a generic example...
The point of all this being that you may not want to eliminate what you hear as a defect, but work to control it when it is called for. .....whichever practice method is chosen.
-Jason
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Author: cigleris
Date: 2011-11-01 20:57
Whats the big deal? I have always thought it a good sign meaning your filling the tube with air and supporting well. I have a slight "pop" when playing D to E in the clarion register and it has never ever been a problem or hindered me in any way.
Buster makes a good point which I echo.
How about you record your self and see if you can hear it. Perhaps it'll set your mind at rest letting you concentrate on the important things.
Peter Cigleris
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Author: Ed Palanker
Date: 2011-11-01 22:36
I have an exercise that I've used for many years in my teach career to solve this problem with my student. It's easier to show then describe but I'll give it a try. Begin on the F throat tone and go to the note below, F-E, E-D, D-C etc. until you get to low F-E. Begin with your finger very high and bring it down to the lower note very, very slowly over about 4 beats, then bring it back up very slowly and very high, about as high as it will go to gain complete control. Do it exceedingly slow and don't worry if you hear the tone get a little distorted when leaving or approaching the next note, it's only an exercise. The idea of this is to gain complete control over your fingers, complete control. Once you get the nack of it begin doing it in intervals as well. Start of the F again and go F-D, F-C, F-C etc. Then do the same thing beginning of the E. Remember, this is an exercise in getting extreme control of your fingers so you can then have enough control to play a beautiful legato. Very slow, very high and keeping your fingers curved as if you are picking up a ball. ESP eddiesclarinet.com
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Author: Buster
Date: 2011-11-02 00:23
To follow up Peter's posting;
The clarion E-D is an interval that is quite prone to speaking with a slight percussive beginning, or "pop" as we have termed it here. I am not sure if this is an acoustical phenomenon inherent in the clarinets' design, but it exists and is simply something to deal with. (Not flinging arrows at anybody's technique here.) But the aforementioned Tchaikovsky 6th, 1st mvmt. solo beginning on F# deals with this E-D issue directly.
We all know the solo F#-E-D|B-A-F# etc... for the first phrase.
First what do we have harmonically speaking here; a line in D major using the major pentatonic scale. The interesting thing is that the tonic note (D) serves as an anacrusis into the 2nd measure B (the 6th and importantly a "possible" appogiatura)- A-F#. Now the question arises how this is treated:
I will try to leave my personal opinions out of this with one caveat; I have always treated the solo as one that wants to be expressive but is forced to be solemn (despite the major, or "happy" ![[right]](http://test.woodwind.org/clarinet/BBoard/smileys/smilie8.gif) key.) Others treat it much more overtly expressive, or quite "emotive." I won't pass judgement, only say that differences in finger action can have great affect on what results.
(you may want the music in front of you to simplify this)
1- If the line is wished to be connected (with no "bumps") very smoothly, then it is key that each finger place the same amount of "pop" on each note- in this case little to none. It is simply begun with a descending pentatonic (starting and ending on the 3rd) and allowed to "fall downward" if you'll excuse my use of imagery. De-emphasizing the E-D connection is vital. (just as placing the long B in a manner where it doesn't jump out, as is so typical of the A clarinet- but that is another issue.)
2- Similar to 1, but a bit of finger emphasis, or "pop", could be placed on the D to show it as tonic, followed by the continuation of the scale down to F#. As subtle as this may seem, it changes the feel of the line quite a bit. The D receives an emphasis, but as it is serving as an anacrusis of sorts, the B appogiatura is now much more naturally pronounced: you have "teed it up" so to speak. --- The ear is awaiting the B much more because the anacrusis is strongly emphasized. .... or is that emphaSIZed?
In any case, the emphasized D divides the descending line into 2 groups of 3 instead of 1 group of 6. (Then the issue of the return to clarion D becomes quite important; it almost requires that you emphasize, or "pop", the D dotted-quarter for constancy. Playing the solo in this manner divides the first phrase into groups of 123-1234-123. For my ear, it is too "chopped up", but I have heard it played effectively in this manner despite what my mind's ear holds.)
3- Play the phrase very connected with a small "pop" on each note matching the natural tendency of the D. In writing, this may sound quite undesirable, but it all lies in how it is treated. If the beginning of each note is the "placed" in the same manner, but line moves forward (or resists that desire ?-) it may not jar the ear. Perhaps in an extremely live acoustic this would be essential to have the line sound legato, but not mushy, for the audience.
4- Play it with overtly legato fingers (as if to say I AM PLAYING LEGATO RIGHT NOW), in an almost soupy manner without a clear attack of each note. Perhaps in an excessively dry acoustic this may be needed; or you have a conductor that deems you must play in this manner (THEY aren't always correct either mind you!) This requires an opposite approach to placing a "pop" on each note, I guess sort of a "yah"-"yah"-"yah" etc.... It would require a bit more attention on the E-D connection to eliminate any "pop"...... or place the "yah" ?-|
Again not my typical approach, but one I have heard.
-------------------------
I may seem to be nit-picking, but the placement of one note with, or without, a "pop" can have a great deal of influence. Sometimes you may want that; other times a passage may require you to eliminate it. The point is that you cannot hurt yourself learning the extremes, and then the infinite variations in between.
Many ways of practicing are given above, so I will not add to the confusion. Just know that each will give a different result, is simply an exercise, and none is inherently more correct than the others. Also briefly mentioned, but not fleshed out, is how the air is used in conjunction with finger motion. That can only expand your "palette" that much more.
-Jason
again, sorry for the short post
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Author: pinky
Date: 2011-11-02 06:03
I really really love this board.
Those descriptions are so helpful. It is especially good to know that the sound distortion and/or glissando effect is not something I should be too worried about initially, as both these things were frustrating me intensely, and causing me to think I was doing it wrong.
I also really like your ideas Jason, especially using the pop for emphasis, something I had not thought of. I also agree that learning the "extremes" of techniques is vital so that we have access to many different sounds (true also for dynamics and articulation etc).
All this help is really helping me get though my practice funk, and I can already feel so improvements.
Thank you guys! And please add more comments as you see fit!
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Author: vjoet
Date: 2011-11-03 19:10
Pinky,
Your striving for perfection is commendable. Bonade wrote:
For my taste, the worst thing that can happen, detracting from otherwise good playing or phrasing, is to hear more finger action than actual sound, and this applies to all woodwind instruments. What is more beautiful than to hear a well-phrased solo played seemingly without effort? A phrase should be like a song, as though produced by a divine voice, without any reminder of the difficulties the player has to cope with. Of course, I have to admit that at certain times, the physical side of the instrument is quite impossible to hide; but if the player has the desire to make his sound as close as possible to perfection, then a great deal has already been achieved. This desire is what will keep one forever improving; trying to reach the unreachable perfection.
The Clarinet, No. 6 (Summer, 1951)
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Author: Bob Phillips
Date: 2011-11-05 23:51
So, I'm going over a week's worth of legato "spongy fingers" practice with my teacher, and he advises me to make my finger movements "more balletic."
Kool!
Bob Phillips
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Author: Tony Pay ★2017
Date: 2011-11-06 00:12
William wrote:
>> I find that a very slight lessening of the breath when going to the second note helps the smooth transition--legato.>>
I just noticed this. I have to say that there is great danger in adopting this principle.
Consider: what is the 'point' of legato? It's not just a way of getting from one note to another.
What legato does is to make possible the idea that a sequence of notes may be perceived by a listener to constitute a single element in a higher order structure. So a legato marking over two notes means that we do what we can to encourage the perception of ONE INTERVAL, rather than a perception of TWO NOTES. And the same applies to a legato marking over three, four, five...etc notes. We want the perception of a phrase, rather than the perception of its constituents.
This is the meaning of the seemingly mystical saying: "the music is not in the notes; it is BETWEEN them."
So, legato means keeping dynamic and tonecolour constant while pitch changes. Unless you learn to do this, you damage the musical structure.
Further, if you learn NOT to do it, and conceal transitions between notes rather than properly engineering them, it can become a habit that is exceedingly difficult to break.
Tony
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Author: MandyCarlsson
Date: 2011-11-06 00:59
Tony,
I appreciate your input, especially the following:
"So a legato marking over two notes means that we do what we can to encourage the perception of ONE INTERVAL, rather than a perception of TWO NOTES."
I will keep this in mind from here on out during practice.
Mandy
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