 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: snilsson
Date: 2011-11-01 17:14
I've been following the clarinet bboard for a long time but this is the first time I've felt that I have some useful information to share with you.
I've been playing on Legere signature reeds for the last couple of months and it has been a revelation. A high quality reed that responds the same every time makes clarinet playing so much easier and more enjoyable. However, I've also encountered several problems.
I've tried eight Legere 3 1/4 Bb signature reeds so far: the first two were great, after that I've had two unbalanced reeds (one harder on the left, the other one on the right), one that was unplayable, and three that were good, but a bit harder than the first two. I've done my testing and playing on two brand new B40's.
There have been quite a bit of back and forth with the Legere customer support. They've been very friendly and I've had all the bad ones replaced, even though it took almost a month in one case (I did get a complimentary reed because of this). My last transaction was less successful: I asked for the three 3 1/4 reeds that were good, but a bit too hard for me, to be replaced with 3:s. I got the original ones back (actually only two of them!) with returning mail and the message: "they have been measured & best we can do. NN".
Here are my questions to you:
Have I been extremely unlucky or have any of you had similar problems?
What is the preferred way to get well balanced Legere reeds of proper strength?
I've tried to thin down the harder corner with an abrasive, just like I would do with cane, and have ruined one reed in the process so far.
I've also tried to soften a reed by putting it in hot water for a brief moment. It actually works, but the reed goes back to its original strength in a few hours time.
Sending the reeds back for replacement may not be an option for me any longer. My guess is that customer support is getting tired of me at this point, and I might have overstayed my welcome.
This is extremely frustrating. Close to perfect reeds that are consistent over time is such a blessing and it seems Legere are very close to achiving this. I'd hate to see this project fail because of problems with consistency in manufacture. Or perhaps it's only me that have been very unlucky?
I should add that I've repeatedly tried to contact Legere about how to best get balance reeds of proper strength (e-mail to the info address, e-mail to Tim Elvy, and snail-mail to Guy Légère) but have not had any response.
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Author: sonicbang
Date: 2011-11-01 19:17
I agree with you at some point. I have tried and played 6 Legeres until today and they are same type and strength, but I can tell the difference between each of them. However I found Vandoren mouthpieces are not so Legere-friendly. I have tried two 5RVs, one 5RV Lyre, one M30, one B46, three B45Lyres and a V360 and none of them was OK with the Legeres.
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Author: sfalexi
Date: 2011-11-01 21:40
If you find a mouthpiece that is considered to be "reed-friendly", that might be your best bet.
If you are set on using legeres (I am), I'm willing to find a mouthpiece to work with the reed. So I bought a richard hawkins mouthpiece and it works very well. I also own two walter grabner mouthpieces (I'm using one as my primary right now), and a backun and they all work very well with legeres. However some of my other mouthpieces don't work at ALL with legeres or are VERY VERY picky (I have a custom mouthpiece from a friend, ridenour HW, M15 - not bad with legere,).
If you haven't tried with each reed, be VERY VERY careful with the placement of the reed on the mouthpiece. What I do is try to make it as even as possible on the facing, with the tip JUST over the tip of the mouthpiece. Then, as I play it, I will make SLIGHT adjustments left or right, up or down, and within a few minutes get a very good adjustment of the reed. It helps to even out the left/right balance.
And I asked Richard Hawkins what ligature he used/recommended. He uses rovner eddie daniels (as do I) and I like how it responds.
I'd say play with the adjustment first, and if you're set on using legeres, maybe consider finding a legere friendly mouthpiece. Ted lane uses them exclusively so whatever mouthpiece he uses, ken poplowski uses them and he uses a backun mouthpiece, richard hawkins is a legere artist and uses his own mouthpiece, and I find walter grabner's mouthpieces to work well with them.
Alexi
US Army Japan Band
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Author: Barry Vincent
Date: 2011-11-02 01:27
I've always assumed that unbalanced reeds were a cane reed problem, that the synthetics were suppose to solve these kind of problems. I use Forestone reeds, usually 4 or 4.4 and had no problems like that. Forestones are molded homogeneous material (mixture of bamboo pulp and plastic) and therefore an unbalanced reed would not be a result. I also find that they are generally very consistant from one reed to another of the same resistance.
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Author: JJAlbrecht
Date: 2011-11-02 02:17
Alexi, I think Ted lane makes his own mouthpieces. I used to have one of his, made from a Zinner blank. It was quite nice. I sold it when I got my Grabner.
Jeff
“Everyone discovers their own way of destroying themselves, and some people choose the clarinet.” Kalman Opperman, 1919-2010
"A drummer is a musician's best friend."
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Author: snilsson
Date: 2011-11-02 10:21
A few words about my reed testing methodology.
To be able to accurately test and evaluate the quality of a reed you need to keep all other parameters as stable as possible. In particular, any deficiencies or irregularities in the mouthpiece is likely to affect the results.
The B40 was a natural choice for my testing. I've heard excellent and highly dynamic (pppp to ffff) performances by many players using the B40, so this mouthpiece certainly shouldn't be the limiting factor. Also, I've used the B40 for the last 20 years. Changing mouthpieces or ligatures is bound to confuse the issue and make it very difficult to clearly evaluate and identify issues with the reed.
I also went to great lengths to make sure that the B40 was in good condition. I tested five new mouthpieces and quickly found that my old and trusted B40 was worn and had several flaws. The new ones, however, were very consistent. I found that four of them played almost identically. In fact, moving the reed ever so slightly on the facing had a much bigger effect than switching mouthpieces. In a blind test I was unable to distinguish between the two B40:s I ended up buying.
When testing for balance I used the well-known technique of rotating the clarinet so that only one side of the reed can vibrate and comparing the response on the two sides by playing a forte-piano open g. If I couldn't make the reed respond evenly by moving it sideways on the facing I considered the reed unbalanced.
When testing for strength I moved the reed up and down on the mouthpiece to help get a proper response. If I couldn't make the reed play comfortably by moving the reed on the facing I considered the reed to be of unsuitable strength.
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Author: leporellina
Date: 2011-11-02 11:09
Hi,
I am sad to say that I have made similar experience.
On the one hand, Legere Reeds are awesome. If I can take it out of the box and it is perfectly balanced, good response, beautiful sound, I really can't imagine to play any other reed anymore.
But unluckily, it is one out of 5 reeds, that matches - and that is more or less the same rate as with my old vandoren reeds.
I tested quite a bunch during the last two years - classic cut, Signature, Quebec cut - all together it were about 15 reeds with various strengths from 3.5 to 4.25. I sat down one afternoon in August and tried to rank all the reeds I had (it was 10 Legeres by then). Thus I evaluated that all the four Quebecs I had were in front - my worst Quebec worked better for me then any reed with another cut.
I found out that it is possible to work on the classic and Quebec cut reeds with sandpaper with caution - at least on balance, strenght and response. I tried the same with one of the Signatures - destroyed - these seem to have an other structure.
The main problem with the reeds is the "hissing" (don't know the correct expression in English), especially in the lower register. I got a Playnick Easyplay French mouthpiece - they are especially designed for Legere Reeds and are said to stop the hissing. It's a wonderful mouthpiece for many reasons, but a noisy reed is a noisy reed.
BR,
Katja
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Author: sfalexi
Date: 2011-11-02 13:33
Quote:
hen testing for balance I used the well-known technique of rotating the clarinet so that only one side of the reed can vibrate and comparing the response on the two sides by playing a forte-piano open g. If I couldn't make the reed respond evenly by moving it sideways on the facing I considered the reed unbalanced.
When testing for strength I moved the reed up and down on the mouthpiece to help get a proper response. If I couldn't make the reed play comfortably by moving the reed on the facing I considered the reed to be of unsuitable strength. Sounds like a great way to test stuff.
Out of curiosity, you say you have find multiple legere reeds model/strength to range from great to unplayable? That seems very weird to me. I've recently got into legeres, and of the 8 that I've played, I too have noticed slight differences (some seem to play better or be SLIGHTLY thinner than others), but ALL of them for me have been playable and performable.
As far as the differences in strength (some being harder than others), I understand you are trying to keep your setup consistent, but are you open to trying different ligatures and placement of ligature? I use an Eddie Daniels ligature which affords me the opportunity to use the metal rails for reeds, or to cover them with leather flaps. I use the leather for when the reed seems a little brighter than I want, and the rails for [what I feel is] maximum vibration on them.
I think the problem (not really a problem, but situation more than likely) is you're just much more highly in tune to reeds than I am. Maybe you're just used to being able to adjust cane reeds to perfection and so if you don't feel that perfection, you consider it near unplayable and not something you'd want to work with? Maybe?
I know they changed SOMETHING with manufacturing in the past year or two cause I have two legere signatures of the same strength that have different patterns throughout and a different feel to the tongue, but I still find every one playable and performable.
Alexi
PS - I think I've come to grips with the clarinet, and most everything in life, being a compromise. I can search and search for the perfect mouthpiece and brand reed, but I'm comfortable with the few compromises I've had to make. I compromised going to VERY good plastic reeds (as opposed to those few excellent cane reeds I was able to find every now and then) but have gained back time and effort to search and adjust and worry about humidity. And I feel that not having to worry about reeds has helped me to keep my focus on music and technique. Maybe legere reeds, for you, is not something you can compromise on.
US Army Japan Band
Post Edited (2011-11-02 13:36)
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Author: snilsson
Date: 2011-11-02 13:54
@Alexi
Only one reed out of eight has been unplayable - an occasional lemon certainly is to be expected and tolerated with any product.
Two have been so unbalanced that it couldn't be fixed by moving the them sideways. One was harder on the left side, the other one on the right.
The other five have been playable but of uneven strength. I've also encountered the noisy or hissing sound described by Katja with three of the reeds.
Two have been close to perfect.
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Author: sfalexi
Date: 2011-11-02 23:07
Bummer. Maybe I've just been lucky, but so far so good on the ones I've ordered and played. I do notice SLIGHT differences in thickness, but don't do the side to side test anymore. I slap it on, make sure it's centered, figure out how much of the reed past the tip feels comfortable for me, and play away.
Alexi
US Army Japan Band
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Author: snilsson
Date: 2011-11-03 13:08
I just mailed Tim Elvy, VP Sales Worldwide at Legere. I tolded him about this discussion and asked if someone at the company would be willing to comment. With a bit of luck we'll get some information directly from the horses mouth.
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Author: kilo
Date: 2011-11-03 22:35
It would be interesting to determine if the unbalanced reeds are inaccurately machined or whether the material itself can vary in density of responsiveness.
Over the last few years I've gradually moved to using Legeres on all my instruments (soprano and bass clarinets, tenor and baritone saxophone), adapting and fine tuning my embouchure as I became accustomed to the reeds and finding the particular strengths and cuts which work for me. One thing I've noticed is that reed placement is extremely important; minute differences in position will make a big difference in the perceived resonance of the sound.
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Author: Claire Annette
Date: 2011-11-04 03:04
How do you store your Legere reeds? I have students who've had bad luck with using the black plastic Vito reed guards that store 4 at a time. This type of storage wore a spot in their reeds. I store mine in a vintage metal reed guard and haven't had problems.
Just curious how you Legere users store your reeds.
Also out of three Signatures that I have in my case, two of the 3.75 reeds play identically. The third 3.75 is very hard and stiff.
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Author: kilo
Date: 2011-11-04 09:11
I use a Selmer reed case but any case holder that doesn't actually squeeze the tip or press on the reed will be fine.
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Author: clairmusic
Date: 2011-11-04 15:26
have you ever tried rico classic reserve reeds? they have great response, color.,easy to play on. and they come in plus sizes. they were designed by mark nicco. after playing on vandorens for twenty yrs, these reeds are all I play on now. I love these reeds.
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Author: Ed
Date: 2011-11-04 17:07
I have had the same mixed results. I recently found a Legere Signature that I thought was promising. I purchased the same strength and it was much too light.
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Author: Claire Annette
Date: 2011-11-05 05:00
I hope Tim Elvy sees all these comments. He likes feedback on the reeds, for the purpose of helping to sell the best Legere reeds possible, one would assume. If Legere users are concerned about inconsistencies within a cut and strength, the conpany would want to know about that.
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Author: trish24
Date: 2011-11-05 05:56
I have only been playing for three years so sometimes I am not sure where a problem lies.
I purchased a Legere signature at the start of this year and just loved it but after a month or so it developed a really bad resonance on A5.
Because they are fairly expensive, and I could no longer use it and expected to get a longer use from it, I wrote to the company but did not receive a reply
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Author: Tony F
Date: 2011-11-05 13:38
I've bought Legere reeds from my local music shop. I've found slight differences between reeds of the same strength, but not enough to cause me problems. I've found some mouthpieces to be less suitable for Legere reeds than others, and currently I'm using a VanDoren B44 with great success.
I bought a couple of Legeres that I found too stiff for me, they were a full number higher than the ones I normally use (2.25). I played around with them and found that, treated carefully, it is possible to work on Legeres with good results. I was able to get both of these stiff reeds to the point where I can swap them seamlessly with my other Legeres.
Tony F.
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Author: trish24
Date: 2011-11-06 21:37
Hi, Tony,
What do you mean by "play around with" and "work on"?
I didn't discard mine so would be happy to know if/how I can rescue it.
Thanks
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Author: Tony F
Date: 2011-11-07 09:23
Hi Trish,
Legere's that are a bit soft can be successfully clipped with a quality clipper that does an absolutly clean cut. You need to clip far less than you would with a cane reed to achieve the same effect. Reeds that are too hard can be carefully scraped and sanded, taking great care to keep the contour of the reed unchanged.
I use a home-made reed knife I made from a Japanese laminated steel purfling knife, used in guitar making. Apply firm pressure when scraping, but not so firm as to damage the tip. Always scrape towards the tip. Test as you go, and when you think you're getting close stop scraping and sand, using 600 wet and dry paper. I ruined the first one I tried, but it wasn't up to much anyway so it wasn't much of a loss. The second one worked fine.
I've used the same technique on a Fibrecell reed, and that worked as well. I don't much like Fibrecell reeds, and even after working on it I didn't like it, but it was a lot better than when I started.
Good luck.
Tony F.
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Author: trish24
Date: 2011-11-08 06:36
Thanks, Tony,
I wont get involved with knives and cutters but will have a go with emery paper ...have used it on cane reeds...nothing to lose
Trish
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Author: Brent
Date: 2011-11-09 16:14
Originally the method that Legere recommended for making their reeds softer was to insert the tip of the reed only in hot (boiling) water for one second. After this process, the reed would be softer. I have tried this with some success.
Post Edited (2011-11-09 16:15)
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Author: sfalexi
Date: 2011-11-09 22:11
Quote:
I have only been playing for three years so sometimes I am not sure where a problem lies.
I purchased a Legere signature at the start of this year and just loved it but after a month or so it developed a really bad resonance on A5.
Because they are fairly expensive, and I could no longer use it and expected to get a longer use from it, I wrote to the company but did not receive a reply A month of use from one reed? Not ANYTHING to complain about. When people ask about these reeds, I don't tout longevity. To me, it costs about the same as a box of reeds, and lasts about a month (which is about the same as a box of reeds to me). However I love that it plays every time, it plays no matter what the temperature, it doesn't dry out, and it responds the same every time which makes it easy for me to work on music instead of finding the right reed, adjusting it, prepping it, adjusting again, etc. etc. etc.
Get about 4 or 5 reeds, rotate them so you use one per practice/play session, and they'll last a little longer and you'll start to see slow monetary gains, while having reeds that just work.
Alexi
US Army Japan Band
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Author: snilsson
Date: 2011-11-19 19:11
After a few months of playing exclusively on Legere Signature reeds I've found the product to be very promising, but all things considered I've decided to stay with my trusted cane. Here is a summary of my findings.
The Great
A single Legere reed plays with great consistency over time.
The reeds play directly out of the box without any warm-up. (However, we humans still seem to need a fair bit of warm-up...)
With normal playing, the reeds last a long time.
The Good
The reed, if you find a good one (see below), is of high quality and I was able to play everything that I could play on a good Vandoren V12, and with equal ease. However, the reeds are subtly different from cane and it probably will take you a while to get used to them. After about a month, I felt that I was well in control.
The Problems
The reed will suddenly soften and be a bit harder to control after about 20 minutes of playing. It is still playable, but you may want to take a rest or switch to another reed. The reed does go back to its original state pretty rapidly.
The consistency between different reeds is not very good. Not only do reeds with the same grading differ in strength, you will also find reeds that are unevenly balanced. I've found several reeds that could not be made to play evenly just by moving them to the left or the right on the facing. You may even encounter an occasional lemon. From a sample of about ten, I found one that was all but unplayable.
You will have to be very careful with the placement of the reed on the facing, more so than with cane.
Adjusting unbalanced reeds seem to be more difficult than with cane. Perhaps I haven't had enough practice yet; with the cost being about ten times higher it can be a bit daunting to bring out the abrasives. Also, if you modify the reed you are no longer able to ask for a replacement.
For different reasons (unplayable reeds, uneven reeds, reeds of improper strength) I've had to contact Legere customer support repeatedly. My experience hasn't been the best. The lemon was promptly, but somewhat grudgingly, replaced without a replacement fee. One replacement was seemingly forgotten, and only sent after a reminder. One replacement (change of strength) was refused and the original reeds were sent back, with one reed missing. At this point I've been promised new reeds, but two weeks later they still haven't arrived. [Edit Tue Nov 22: They have now arrived, including one extra.]
It's also been quite difficult for me to get in contact with the company. I've tried sending repeated e-mails to all addresses available on the web site and I've even sent physical mail to the president of the company. Only after starting this discussion, and telling the company about it, did I get a reply. From the answer it's clear that they are aware of this thread, and perhaps we will get some feedback.
Conclusion
The Legere Signature reed is a very promising product and I'd love to see it succeed, but at this point I'm afraid I will have to stay with cane. The inconstancy of wooden reeds can be quite annoying but at least it is manageable.
To end on a more positive note, I've found that Chapter 9 of The Educator's Guide to the Clarinet by Tom Ridenour has all the information needed to prevail over those pesky pieces of bamboo.
Post Edited (2011-11-22 16:49)
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Author: Joseph Tomasso
Date: 2011-11-19 21:19
I hope you don't mind but i'm going to latch on to this thread for some advice... Sorry to hijack!
As an oboist I make my own reeds and I make reeds for all of my students (exhausting) so I understand and respect why there can be no such thing as true consistency with reeds. Cane changes too much as it grows, and certainly in each stage of processing. Having said that, I really want to like these reeds. I spend almost 10 hours a week just on oboe reed making, so when I sit down to practice clarinet and saxophone, the last thing I want to do is balance reeds and play with knives. Having said that, it is part of the process and I'm willing to accept that in order to have good reeds, one must have a good knowledge of adjusting them.
My biggest question to everyone that has jumped in on this thread is how much adjusting can you really do with these reeds? I'm a little worried about trying a reed and needing to adjust it slightly and having no way to get there. Especially after hearing exchanging might be difficult.
Anyone have much experience adjusting with a bevel edge, wedge, of double hallow ground knife on these reeds? I have a plethora of equipment at my disposal
Also, it seems like a silly question, but do these reeds show the same signs that cane reeds show when they wear out? I heard that it will just simply stop vibrating, but again I have not used them in years. I always kept one of the original legere reeds around as a doubler for pit orchestras, but fast forward 4 years of reed making and I'd much rather pick up a knife to fix a reed. Should I give these signatures a shot or should I continue to budget another hour or two a week on my single reeds?
Bachelor of Music, Sax/Clarinet Performance (2005, 06)
Master of Music, Multiple Woodwind Performance (2008)
Master of Music, Oboe Performance (2013)
Gainesville Chamber Orchestra (Clarinet)
University of Florida 2010-2011(Visiting Lecturer in Woodwi
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Author: oca
Date: 2011-11-20 08:38
The guy who said he played on lots of vandorens and couldnt get the sound out of the reed was because all of those mouhpieces have a small openings. The hardness of synthetic reeds will require a more open mouthpiece as the minor dip in mouthpieces will not cause the reed to bend up (yes mouthpiece tables are not perfecy flat).
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Author: srattle
Date: 2011-11-20 09:52
I've been trying out Legere Signatures for a little while now, and I'm finding them very interesting.
I notice some serious benefits to my normal playing, due to the fact that (imho) the reeds are in some ways much less forgiving then a good cane reed.
Legeres seem to need a much more consistent airstream and support level than cane, and also a more consistent embouchure position. If any of those things fluctuate, then the sound quality, and often pitch starts to go south in a heatbeat.
This does mean that I find the reeds less flexible, but I think it's good for me in the same way that playing eb is a great training ground for Bb clarinet playing.
One thing with the Legeres I notice is that I sometimes don't feel like I have certain freedoms with them. The high altissimo is acceptable at best, being quite shrill and needing more air than I appreciate, which means that I have many less possibilities for colors. Also, I find that C7 is all but impossible, at least in tune and with the fingerings that I use as standard. This makes these reeds only usable in certain music that doesn't ask for much in terms of the extremes.
Also, I find that playing really loud doesn't work so well. The fortissimo volume produces a buzzy quality that I don't like, and it somehow starts sounding like plastic. This is especially apparent in the low chalumeau register and gets triggered even at a loud mezzoforte.
All in all, I think the reeds have a nice sound (I very much like the sound in pianissimo) and are amazing to just put on the mouthpiece and play. I will keep trying them out and seeing if I can find a good balance to everything, but there are just too many limitations that don't work just right for me.
This said, I am dying to find a synthetic reed that will do everything I need (I've tried Forestone with disasterous results, doesn't work on my mouthpiece even a little bit)
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Author: sfalexi
Date: 2011-11-21 00:07
Quote:
One thing with the Legeres I notice is that I sometimes don't feel like I have certain freedoms with them. The high altissimo is acceptable at best, being quite shrill and needing more air than I appreciate, which means that I have many less possibilities for colors. Also, I find that C7 is all but impossible, at least in tune and with the fingerings that I use as standard. This makes these reeds only usable in certain music that doesn't ask for much in terms of the extremes.
Also, I find that playing really loud doesn't work so well. The fortissimo volume produces a buzzy quality that I don't like, and it somehow starts sounding like plastic. This is especially apparent in the low chalumeau register and gets triggered even at a loud mezzoforte. Initially I found this as well, but it's about finding the right "combination". A quarter size too soft reed for me seemed HORRIBLY buzzy. Also, it could be something as small as the difference between a Legere Signature's tip and a Legere Quebec's tip. I've switched over to legere cause it makes a LOT more sense for my playing, and after trying a few different types I found one that works very well (for me, legere signature 4.0). I still need to try the 4.25 cause the 4.0 seems a TAD too soft, but the 4.0 works very well for me.
Also, biting on a legere reed makes it sound buzzy and horrible.
Might also be a mouthpiece problem. I've found some mouthpieces just don't work at ALL with legere as well. Fortunately, it seems that a lot of custom ones and vandoren ones do.
I would definitely give them a thorough tryout if you're really interested in finding a good synthetic reed. With some work and realizing that slight biting was the problem, I can play pretty loud without harshness. Everything up through altissimo A is clear and nice sounding, but Bb, B, and C are a little more hit or miss for me (as far as having them sound nice). But I have a feeling I just need a 1/4 size harder reed as I think its the softening of the reed after it's warmed up that is causing those extreme high notes to have a little less quality. Fortunately, like you said, not much music calls for those extreme notes.
Alexi
US Army Japan Band
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Author: Sean.Perrin
Date: 2011-11-27 05:45
I absolutely love Legere original reeds for teaching and practicing, but there is no substitute to a good cane reed for a performance.
I have bought at least 20 of these in the past few years, and have had the least success with the quebec and ontario cut, there's something not quite right about those. The new "signature" was the worst one yet, though it's possible I have a dud.
Founder and host of the Clarineat Podcast: http://www.clarineat.com
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