 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: Elkwoman46
Date: 2011-10-27 14:27
I can't help but notice that barrels are quite a topic for clarinets, so I want to ask this question...
Because it seems that people are accumulating various lengths of barrels to affect their sound, here is my question, can a barrel length choice ACTUALLY cause the instrument not to play at all?
Has that ever come up?
I am wondering about that, and per some random things I am doing; howbeit, realize that my issues might be others too, such as leaks, etc.
So, hence, my question about a no play barrel???
Or let me just say also, OR barrels that cause just squeaks and unmusical sounds per a length choice (opposed to an unknown original length)?
While I am asking, do some materials of barrel choices cause just as much trouble? Like plastic?
Or can I assume that most barrels manufactured for sale are going to play on any clarinet, pretty much, and not need to worry that that could be the trouble on a used clarinet acquisition?
I am guessing that bore sizes are not going to be too out of range on most manufactured barrels (for those who want to stay in business)...
Thanks so kindly.
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Author: SteveG_CT
Date: 2011-10-27 14:57
No barrel will cause a clarinet to not play but an incorrectly sized barrel will cause it to play with lousy intonation. These days it's not just the barrel length that needs to be considered. Many barrels have tapered bores that are tailored to work with specific instrument bore configurations. A barrel designed to work on an R13 may not be a good choice to use on say a Selmer Recital and vice versa.
Your question on the effects of barrel material touches on one of the great debates in the clarinet world. Most people agree that it is the internal geometry of a barrel that is the primary determining factor of how well it works. However there are disagreements over how much of an effect the barrel material has on the resulting sound. Personally my experiences have convinced me that with all else being equal the construction material doesn't really make any difference. I'm sure some others will disagree with me on this.
Post Edited (2011-10-27 14:58)
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Author: Elkwoman46
Date: 2011-10-27 15:20
Once again, SteveG, thank you so much for the insight. I am glad to know this too, that the barrel is very likely not my problem on said clarinet.
However, I was also asking for a basic understanding as well, about barrels via clarinets that is.
What crossed my mind, when I think of a tube where someone puts holes in them and makes an instrument. If holes were moved down and length is increased, would said instrument still sound the holes? Probably, yes? Just way off from making a better sound???
So, I think that does make complete sense, that a barrel length should continue to make it play, just not how one might want it to.
I was just wondering though about the reed aspect as well and the whole feature of a clarinet. But it is the reed and mouthpiece that actually makes the sound, yes? So in reality, the barrel length just affects the notes that come forth...but does it affect, the loudness? Or anything else that I might need to consider?
Thanks ever so much...
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Author: Bob Phillips
Date: 2011-10-27 16:54
Elk,
A tone hole sets up (approximately) the effective length of the clarinet. The effective upper end of the instrument is somewhere along the flapping part of the reed, and the effective lower end is a bit below the middle of the tone hole. The longer the effective length of the pipe, the lower the pitch.
So, changing the barrel length changes the distance between the "effective upper end" and the "effective lower end." That changes the natural pitch that sounds when you play.
A key thing to notice is that, a couple of millimeters change at the barrel is a much bigger relative length change in the throat tones than it is in the "long" tones when you've got most of the tone holes covered. Changing barrel length will have a bigger effect on the pitch of the left hand notes than the right hand notes.
If a tone hole is wrongly placed anywhere along the bore, a different length barrel will affect that note and every other. The barrel won't fix a single tuning problem.
OK, that's part of the barrel length story. The rest, as SteveG mentioned is in the inside shape of the barrel. When you open the register key, and pop the instrument into its upper register, the pitch of a clarinet should go up a 12 note (1-1/2 octaves --12 notes). That is imperfect, though, because every note in the upper register should be register vented at a different place along the bore, and we're stuck with only one. (On many instruments, more than one register vent is built into the instrument, reducing this cause of bad intonation.)
It frequently happens that much of the upper register will be sharp on a clarinet. (Called wide 12ths) A clever trick to bring the 12ths back in tune is to taper the tuning barrel so that the bottom end is smaller than the mouthpiece end. These tapers can be very complex and demand a lot of artistry on the part of the barrel maker.
Another thought on the barrel: The reed flaps, and the air column pulses along the bore direction. The mouthpiece baffle (above the reed) smears the reed's pressure pulses into longitudinal pressure into sound waves moving along the bore. Very important in forming the sound of the horn. The barrel provides the next phase of the coaxing of the reed vibrations into music. It's importance is just short of that of the mouthpiece. It has a whole lot to do with the sound quality and responsiveness of the instrument.
Below the barrel, the noise hits the clarinet --where most of the money is spent. Even a great clarinet --with toneholes, bore and bell has no chance to play at its best without a great mouthpiece and barrel.
The barrel --particularly its length-- and how much it is pulled out/pushed in has a great effect on intonation, but it is also a very important contributor to the clarinet's friendly (or hostile) response and to its sound.
But I can't imagine anyway to make a barrel capable of choking off all sound in a clarinet.
Bob Phillips
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Author: Elkwoman46
Date: 2011-10-27 18:31
Thank you Bob and Steve,
All in all, I did go to your accelerated advanced clarinet class today...thanks to you both.
While I have read thus far a lot of the educational information posted via this forum about the mechanics of playing clarinet, reed and mouthpiece and the rest, I still learned so much from these messages...THANK YOU very much.
Now that that is settled about the purpose of a barrel and that the barrel is not the problem when a clarinet does not function at all in making sounds...is it true then that leaks in the clarinet, especially the upper holes, could cause a clarinet to be almost without sound?
I am having this problem on one of my clarinet finds, and it has a leak (maybe way more) on the top caps where the two caps cross over and the top one and bottom one are quite reliant on each other per the screw and component that rests on top of it.
But all this confuses me because it is like the metal clarinets and I read the comments, for example, that the user only got an old one to play a few notes at best...is this the same fault? Just leaks, or is there much more to it? I am not talking of course about one that is totally wrecked out.
And by the way, speaking of metal clarinets, do they have barrel alternates and all that too back in its day? They seem to be just straight metal pieces, or am I mistaken about that? Have people in current times with all the knowledge like you guys have, created puffed metal barrels and so forth for these types? Or straight metal barrels for the current clarinets? And if so, or not, would it help or change the sound or make no difference at all? Or actually just make it harder to play? Or would a heavy duty piece of metal there make it better? Like a soprano recorder having a bit of more denseness in the so called barrel area of it?
I do have a little knowledge of the brass instruments and how some taper more like a cornet/euphonium, and others have more consistent tube width like the trumpet/trombone...but when I think about it, no puffed areas near the mouth piece. And actually I see that a new thing is becoming more popular for brass players and that is a mouthpiece that is long like a V shape versus the fat cup type that has been the standard for so long. Seems to be a lot more effective in producing sound. (It seems like on a brass instrument it is reversed?) In that regard, why does a clarinet have a bell on the end and not look like a flute end? Has that also been tried?
Do puffed out wooden barrels have the same bore size as others just fat to create more denseness, or is it more hollow inside? If so, does that make it harder to play in any way?
As you can see I am absolutely fascinated by all this, and have no idea if that has been discussed here either. If so, I would like to apologize in advance.
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Author: Ed Palanker
Date: 2011-10-27 18:57
Check to see if there's a dime stuck in the barrel bore. :-) ESP eddiesclarinet.com
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Author: Bob Phillips
Date: 2011-10-28 00:11
Fat barrels might be stiffer than thin barrels and resist expanding as the pressure wave passes through them; but like materials of construction, it is a small effect and hard to be sure that it is important, yet the subject of a lot of discussion.
Note that the performance of a clarinet and a barrel are very sensitive to their bore dimensions. A 0.001 of an inch in diameter (or in the taper of the bore diameter) might make a substantial difference in how it plays, so if you had someone make you two barrels, a fat one and a skinny one, it would be necessary to assure that the bores are the same size and shape and that they are made of the same material BEFORE, you can attribute anything to the difference in outside shape.
For example, the upper bore diameter of one of my Buffet A clarinets was about 0.004-inches too large (compared to a properly reamed new instrument). That caused it to play about 30-cents sharp in the left hand clarion. 30 Cents! Using a severely tapered (small at the bottom) barrel greatly helped that problem, and another barrel made the sharpness (wide 12ths) so bad that the tuner thought that it was a Bb Clarinet!
Oh, and another complexity is that a wooden barrel has the wood grain running across it from side to side (unless it is made from the exact center of a log). That means that, as it changes its moisture content and temperature, it will change shape from circular to oval. Try turning your barrel a quarter turn at a time and see if it changes the way your clarinet plays.
And, still another complexity, the sockets in a barrel might not be perfectly aligned with the bore. (same for mouthpieces and upper joints) That will also make the barrel play differently depending upon its "roll angle".
Fun, eh?
A good thing for me is that I've got a barrel that works well enough for me that I can mostly just sit down and practice instead of fiddling.
Bob Phillips
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Author: sfalexi
Date: 2011-10-28 00:55
Quote:
Check to see if there's a dime stuck in the barrel bore. :-) ESP eddiesclarinet.com Haven't tried this one out yet...waiting for my commander to retire and then I'll get him in our community band. hehehe
US Army Japan Band
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Author: Elkwoman46
Date: 2011-10-28 15:03
Dear Bob, thank you for the information on fine tuning and precision requirements of a barrel...that is so helpful. Thank you.
Evermore I am realizing how difficult it is to buy parts for clarinets that have missing parts! Let alone if the available parts are in need of repair...LOL
But regarding the barrel information, I really have a much better understanding about it, and to the above people, thank you very much for elaborating on this matter. It helped so very much. Thanks.
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Author: Bob Phillips
Date: 2011-10-30 17:30
You are most welcome, Elk-ie.
It is a privilege for me to be a part of this wonderful group. Every week, I get something from here that helps my playing, too.
Did I tell you about the time I tried 70 tuning barrels in one sitting? I picked two that were a joy to play and that sounded wonderful. BOTH turned out to be so completely out of tune that they had to be discarded...
Bob Phillips
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Author: Elkwoman46
Date: 2011-10-30 18:51
Dear Bob, I just sat here again, reading this entire topic page...thanks so much again for the education. I just have to ask, where in the world were you when you tried 70 tuning barrels? I ask that because in our small town USA here, I am not sure if there is any where to even find one barrel. I just don't know.
LOL
I was online searching for a local clarinet teacher...could not find that either.
And I have tried in the past as well.
Anyway, thanks so very much once again for everything.
Blessings to you.
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Author: Bob Phillips
Date: 2011-10-31 00:11
The 70 barrel scene was an odd one.
A playing colleague of mine was having trouble matching his favorite mouthpiece (raised on a Vito) to his new Buffet R13. He had a friend who turns architectural features (like the 2-story tapered columns on the front of a "colonial-style" house). This fellow offered to make a short barrel for my friend so that he could get his new set-up to play in tune.
The wood turner got all infected with barrel making lust and converted quite a bit of cocobolo and other tropical hardwoods to BSOs (Barrel-Shaped-Objects). He just stood at his lathe and made barrel after barrel after barrel. A couple of weeks later, he came to town with two shopping bags full of clarinet tuning barrels.
The wood and shapes were variable on purpose. Wood for the beauty of the material and the shape for aesthetic pleasure. The sockets and bore were, well, expedient. He spent a good deal of time making the sockets round and about the right size.
But he didn't pay any particular attention to the bore size or taper.
He DID get the hole through the barrel to align very very well with the sockets, and they were new and still pretty round, so it didn't matter what orientation they were placed on the clarinet.
I auditioned 70, found 5 that were much better than the others, one that was better than those, and a back up (he was offering the 2-fer) from the remaining top 4.
As I mentioned, these were exceptional friendly to my playing and sounded terrific. BUT (and this is embarrassing) 'way out of tune. A mm pull would bring my warmed-up Buffet RC in-tune from the lowest note through the throat tones, but it took another 2-3 mm to bring down the clarion register --and my altissimo was such a wreck then that there was more than the barrel making trouble up there. These two barrels, though, facilitated the altissimo greatly.
Sadly, these great responding, great tone color barrels could not be played with others (or with my teacher's sensitive ear).
The barrel maker is back to turning 30-foot long architectural columns.
Bob Phillips
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Author: Alseg
Date: 2011-10-31 01:13
The toughest part is fashioning the bore......so many variations.
The next hardest is consistency in the sockets.
The outside is the fun part.
Finding the best wood is also a key(sic).
disclaimer. I make and sell barrels
Allan
Former creator of CUSTOM CLARINET TUNING BARRELS by DR. ALLAN SEGAL
-Where the Sound Matters Most(tm)-
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Author: SteveG_CT
Date: 2011-11-01 19:23
@Elkwoman46
I found a spare barrel for your P-M Artist but can't access your e-mail address on my home computer since most of us here in the northeast have no electricity at the moment. Send me a new e-mail and we'll sort things out.
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