 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: clarinetpatrick
Date: 2011-10-23 01:02
I am often told that my sound can be delayed or that I begin on the beat but sound does not produce from the clarinet until slightly later (not even a half a beat). For instance, playing with other wind players and pianists can be problematic b/c my downbeats are not exactly together.
I have always been uncertain about tonguing and have experimented with new ways; however, I find tonguing with a "ta" is very uncomfortable. When I try the position "a relaxed tongue behind the teeth," my tongue begins to vibrate from the reed and the sound does not necessary stop. I would say that my tongue touches the reed about 1/4 inch in from the tip. I have discussed this with my private teacher a lot and she thinks that I am not supporting properly. I have also considered the idea that I don't practice with a metronome correctly.
Can anyone identify with this problem and provide any input? Thank you so much,
Patrick
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Author: kdk
Date: 2011-10-23 02:21
One reason for this can be that the air needed to produce a tone doesn't reach the reed until after you release it. Another may be that you squeeze your jaw or embouchure against the reed in sympathy with your tongue at the instant of starting the note, closing the reed against the mouthpiece just when you want the note to start. These aren't the only causes, but are strong possibilities. Often they're both involved.
You might think of deliberately starting to blow through the mouthpiece while your tongue is still against the reed, just before you release the contact and let the reed vibrate. Don't hold your tongue against the reed any more firmly than necessary to keep it from vibrating. You might get a hiss or a sound like radio static as you start the air before you release the reed. Eventually you can learn to do all of this close enough together that the hiss isn't audible and the whole process seems instantaneous, but any noise won't carry much farther than your own ears anyway. You also need to set your embouchure before you start the first note of a passage and then don't move it as you release the reed so that excessive jaw or embouchure pressure doesn't hold the reed still after you've released it with your tongue.
I'm not sure what practicing with a metronome (or not) would have to do with this problem. And the diagnosis that you're "not supporting properly" is way too vague to be useful, even if you could get a clear idea of what the teacher means (check out the thread about "Breathing" to see how much trouble the word "support" can cause).
Karl
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Author: claritoot26
Date: 2011-10-23 04:36
Very good advice from Karl. I would also add that the very tip of the tongue should gently hit the tip of the reed when articulating. I actually feel both the tip of the reed and the tip of the mouthpiece when I am tonguing.
Lori
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Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2011-10-23 18:30
Lori speaks of the 'other' way to tongue. Some people can use the very tip, others a bit back such as yourself - either should be fine.
I would emphasize that the tongue does NOT HIT the reed, the tongue LEAVES the reed to produce an 'attack.' So the word attack is somewhat of a misnomer.
Having the air at the ready should be key to solving this problem, however you DO get at another issue if you ever try bass clarinet. Sometimes the notes that you produce will sound later than you actually produce them (certainly in the context of an ensemble) so there, working a metronome DOES help you to habituate yourself to producing the sound 'early' to achieve 'on time' in the ensemble. Although I assume this is not what you're presently talking about.
.........................Paul Aviles
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Author: C.Elizabeth07
Date: 2011-10-23 18:48
I agree with the posts above. Especially what Lori said about the tongue leaving the reed not "attacking" it.
I find that a lot of my students are taught to think "Ta" when they tongue but I actually disagree with that a lot. When we articulate our jaw should remain still, its incredibly difficult to say Tah without moving your jaw. I prefer Dee or Tee it also helps keep the tongue raised. Perhaps if you are using "tah" it is too big a motion for the tongue and is delaying your sound.
You can also try to think of tonguing as slurring just with the tongue touching the reed. Try practicing things slurred and then try to mimic the feeling of "slurs" when you articulate. It keeps our air moving consistently (which is a big culprit in causing late or choppy articulation).
Hope this helps a bit.....Sorry if it doesn't make much sense.
C.E.
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Author: Ken Shaw ★2017
Date: 2011-10-24 01:59
Delayed sound after articulation is frequently caused by accompanying each articulation with a puff of air from the belly. The puff is made by the large "blowing" muscles, which move slowly.
To check, rest your right hand lightly on your belly just below the ribs, rest the bell on or between your knees, finger G5 ![[G5]](http://test.woodwind.org/clarinet/BBoard/smileys/g5.gif) and play staccato 16ths at around 72. If you feel pulsation in your belly, you need to eliminate it. I've found that Karl's exercise is the best way. Put the tip of your tongue (or the area just back of the tip) on the reed, establish and maintain breath pressure and "release" the tone by removing your tongue from the reed. Stop the tone by moving the tongue tip back to the reed. Make the motion with the smallest possible area of your tongue and keep the tongue motion as small as possible.
Please read http://test.woodwind.org/clarinet/BBoard/read.html?f=1&i=357628&t=357599 for more.
Remember that you will not make *all* articulations this way. It's just one of many ways, and working on it is for the particular purpose of avoiding delayed sound.
You may also be using even larger and slower muscles by making the Valsalva Maneuver. This involves squeezing in the lower part of your trunk, as you do in defecating (or as happens to women in labor). Arnold Jacobs, the great tuba player in the Chicago Symphony, cured many brass players of delayed articulation problems by making them aware that they were making the Valsalva Maneuver and training them to stop.
Jacobs's methods are described in the wonderful book Arnold Jacobs: The Legacy of a Master http://www.windsongpress.com/books/legacy/legacy.htm. I learned important things, applicable to clarinet playing, from almost every chapter, and I recommend it to everyone.
Ken Shaw
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Author: Tony Pay ★2017
Date: 2011-10-24 17:57
All effective actions -- whatever muscles they use, slow or fast -- have to be timed to synchronise with what they are required to do. A batsman needs to initiate his stroke so as to have his bat arrive at the correct position and angle together with the ball. That requires anticipation, because nerve impulses travel at a finite speed.
Suppose a clay pigeon shooter complains that he shoots AT the pigeon, but that by the time that his shot arrives, the pigeon is no longer there.
"What am I DOING WRONG??!!" we can imagine him wailing:-)
Tony
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Author: vjoet
Date: 2011-10-25 15:28
The suggestion are good. Another possibility is something that came up in sectional work for the community band last week. The clarinets were taking the breath at the last moment, instead of breathing early.
For example, if your conductor generally starts a piece giving a full measure before commencement, take a long leasurely breath starting on 1 and continuing through 2 and 3.
What they were doing is waiting till the AND of 4, making entrance on downbeat 1 a tad late. Solution: breathe early.
Same came up in another piece where the bass clarinet dovetails with the solo clarinet in running sextets. Once he started breathing in on 2 of his measure out (or not intaking breath at all during the 2 1/2 beats out), he was no longer late coming in 1. (Piece is McAlister's transcription of Tchaikovsky's Waltz of Flowers for harp and concert band, rehearsal number 166.)
That is a mistake younger players make: thinking a rest means I can (or should) breathe here. Not necessarily so. Some rests are energetic rests, and at other times rests occurs so frequently, there is no need to inhale there.
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2011-10-25 16:09
Think of your airway as a hosepipe connected to a tap with the water flowing at full rate. Now close the end of the hosepipe with your thumb to stop the flow of water and when you release it, the water flows at full rate again. That's what your tongue is doing - stopping and then restarting the flow of air, so you have to have your airway primed from your lungs right to your mouth and your tongue is acting like a valve to release and stop the flow of air into the instrument.
Now, if the tap is turned off and on, the flow of water will fizzle out and then take time to flow at full rate each time as it isn't primed (the water isn't at maximum pressure in the hose), so if you're breathing out as you tongue with every note, there'll be a delay before the note speaks as the air pressure to set the reed in vibration isn't at the mouthpiece where it's needed - it has to travel from your lungs to get there and that takes time.
Even with the quietest notes you still need a full supply of air (breath support) in order for them to speak, but you'll have to control the volume by the amount of air flow.
I'm probably complicating things a bit now, but when you breathe, it has to be deep instead of shallow, so breathe from your stomach instead from your chest and don't raise your shoulders up when you breathe in. This also helps your tone quality as you'll have more breath support to allow you to play at all volume levels with a good full tone instead of a narrow dynamic range with a thin weak tone.
When people go on about 'breathing from your diaphragm', that's a myth as your diaphragm is an involuntary muscle sheet that separates your thoracic cavity (heart and lungs) from your abdominal cavity (stomach, liver, intestines, etc.) and when you breathe in, your belly (as opposed to your stomach which is under your left ribs) distends to increase your lung capacity. Then tensing your abdominal muscles (running down the front of your belly) while breathing out will expel a large amount of air. That tense belly feeling is the feeling you should have when playing, but you're not pulling or sucking your belly in.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: Buster
Date: 2011-10-25 19:46
Chris,
Please read the most recent thread on breathing.
I don't have the will to begin explaining where you are wrong, but , alas you are.
and what's worse you're possibly confusing someone who doesn't understand the concept of breathing/diaphragmatic support.
and the notion that you need a full tank of air to properly play is right out WRONG.
-Jason
p.s.- Tony, do I open or close my eyes now?
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2011-10-25 21:04
It's better having too much air than too little.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: Buster
Date: 2011-10-26 03:19
christ, I don't have the time for this again,
Having too much air stacked up in the lungs (overload of carbon-dioxide) can generate the same sensation of having too little air. i.e. the feeling of breathlessness- even though the lungs may still have a fair quantity of air in them.
Too much, and too little, can be equally dooming depending on the context.
as for more fighting, I don't have the energy tonight
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Author: Tony Pay ★2017
Date: 2011-10-26 09:22
>> ...the air pressure to set the reed in vibration isn't at the mouthpiece where it's needed - it has to travel from your lungs to get there and that takes time.>>
Less than a hundredth of a second, actually; but even if it took longer, you could still start the process earlier. As well complain that you have to get the instrument out of its case, put the reed on, etc. etc...
If you want to be together with the conductor's beat, you have to do all that stuff BEFOREHAND.
Explanation of how tongue, abs/back and diaphragm may interact can be read in 'Metaphors 5 and 6: The Bow and the Hosepipe' at:
http://test.woodwind.org/clarinet/BBoard/read.html?f=1&i=316748&t=316712&v=t
Tony
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2011-10-26 13:11
Buster, the only one spoiling for a fight on here is you.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: clarinetpatrick
Date: 2011-10-27 00:01
Thank you all so much for the feedback. I have not had time, unfortunately, to read all of the links posted, but I plan to before the weekend is over. Also, if anyone doesn't mind, I am not able to find this breathing thread - could you post a link?
Thanks again!!
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Author: Tony Pay ★2017
Date: 2011-10-27 00:11
Chris wrote:
>> Buster, the only one spoiling for a fight on here is you.>>
The fight he spoke of was the fight of reason against the thoughtless statements one so often sees here.
I have to say that it tires and depresses me too.
Tony
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Author: Tony Pay ★2017
Date: 2011-10-27 17:59
Chris wrote:
>> ...if you're breathing out as you tongue with every note, there'll be a delay before the note speaks as the air pressure to set the reed in vibration isn't at the mouthpiece where it's needed - it has to travel from your lungs to get there and that takes time.>>
Just to expand a bit further on this: as I said before, you can still time the attack to be when you want it....BUT, if you initiate the attack by triggering your abs/back system into operation from a relaxed state, then you're committed to a 'slow' attack. The wavefront reaches the reed after about half a hundredth of a second, but its shape isn't very 'abrupt'. (In the hosepipe analogy, the problem is that you can't turn the tap on very fast.)
If however you have the abs/back system already flexed, but held back by the diaphragm, then you can RELAX the diaphragm very fast, and the abs/back system acts immediately, resulting in a much steeper wavefront arriving after the same half hundredth of a second.
Finally, if your tongue is suitably integrated into the process, you can use it to hold the reed stationary until the wavefront is at its maximum, and the attack is even more abrupt, though still pure. The tongue stroke can be very gentle and momentary in this -- 'cosmetic', as I like to put it:-)
Tony
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