 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: Elkwoman46
Date: 2011-10-21 12:32
If synthetic pads are not self-adhesive, how are they then put in the caps?
Thanks.
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Author: Ken Shaw ★2017
Date: 2011-10-21 13:18
The same way all non-adhesive pads are put in -- with melted shellac or glue.
Ken Shaw
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Author: Elkwoman46
Date: 2011-10-21 13:29
THANK YOU, Ken Shaw!!!!!!!!!!
I really appreciate it.
Oh, wait, you said glue...is there another alternative?
What kind of glue?
Thanks again.
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Author: SteveG_CT
Date: 2011-10-21 13:51
The traditional method of installing pads is to use shellac. Pad cups are heated with a small torch and then a shellac stick is touch to the hot surface. This will leave melted shellac in the key cup and the pad is seated on top of it while it is still hot. As it cools the shellac hardens and forms a very stable base for pads. During the adjustment process the pad cups will be heated again as necessary to soften the shellac so that pads can be adjusted.
Another popular option is to use hot glue. This is the same type of stuff used in the glue guns sold at craft stores although it is sometimes sold in the form of small pellets for use with instruments. The process of using it is pretty much the same as shellac. Pad cups are heated and then the glue is melted in the cup and pad seated on top.
A third option is to use a cold adhesive. Some technicians prefer to apply adhesive and seat pads without heating the pad cups. When this method is used the pad cups will not be reheated to adjust pads (since the adhesive used generally doesn't melt as easily). Instead the keys themselves are bent slightly to provide a better seal.
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Author: kdk
Date: 2011-10-21 14:31
SteveG_CT wrote:
>
> Another popular option is to use hot glue. This is the same
> type of stuff used in the glue guns sold at craft stores
> although it is sometimes sold in the form of small pellets for
> use with instruments.
Steve, as far as you know, is there any downside to using hot glue? I've always used shellac, and the repair shops I've gone to use shellac dissolved in alcohol, which is then evaporated off by heating it in the pad cup so the shellac hardens as it cools. I've always thought of hot glue as soft and not a very strong adhesive. Does it hold reliably?
Karl
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Author: Elkwoman46
Date: 2011-10-21 14:36
Well, hi again! Steve G CT, ...
Wow, I learned a lot from you today!!!
So, my technician used the small pellets you described on my replacement pads.
However, per my original question, I am so glad to know this...you have no idea how useful this information is to us. THANK YOU!
And thank you KEN SHAW!!!!
Also, is this shellac, the same kind of shellac you can buy in a hardware store by the quart? Just a different consistency to it? Obviously, by the quart is very liquid-y.
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2011-10-21 14:46
Hot glue melts and becomes sticky at a much lower temperature than shellac, so it's better suited to synthetic pads which can melt if the temperature is too high.
The downside of using glue sticks is the glue is very sticky and contact with skin will cause burns and also can take the top layer of skin off with it.
I dread working on any woodwind instruments where hot glue has been used to glue pads in with as it all has to be removed in order to use shellac. There's always the risk of getting burnt with hot glue and also it's not all that easy to clean up unlike shellac which is much easier to clean from pad cups and any remaining shellac can be cleaned up using alcohol to do a thorough job.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: SteveG_CT
Date: 2011-10-21 14:56
kdk wrote:
> Steve, as far as you know, is there any downside to using hot
> glue? I've always used shellac, and the repair shops I've gone
> to use shellac dissolved in alcohol, which is then evaporated
> off by heating it in the pad cup so the shellac hardens as it
> cools. I've always thought of hot glue as soft and not a very
> strong adhesive. Does it hold reliably?
>
> Karl
First I'll mention that I'm not a technician and that one of the techs who frequently post here can give you a better answer than I can. I have discussed the issue with one of the local techs I have done business with. He prefers to use hot glue as he feels that shellac can be brittle and more likely to fail (i.e have a pad fall out) when exposed to cold temperatures like we see here in New England frequently.
I have a couple of clarinets that were repadded using hot glue and they have held up fine. I certainly can't dislodge any of the pads without heating the cups first. I suspect that the type of adhesive used isn't as big of an issue when dealing with the small pads on a clarinet but may be of greater concern when dealing with larger pads like those found on the lower stack of a saxophone.
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2011-10-21 15:00
Buffet and Selmer use hot glue to install pads in clarinets and saxes - even the largest pads are glued in with hot glue. My Buffet bass clarinet has the majority of its pads glued in with hot glue (apart from the ones I replaced) and my Buffet basset horn also has all the pads and key corks/felts glued on with hot glue.
Although I recently worked on a Selmer Reference series tenor where the pads were installed with shellac, so maybe they've gone back to using shellac again.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2011-10-21 16:05
It is my understanding that the hot glue becomes moveable around 130 degrees fahrenheit (this is why techs can use hair dryers for this). This sounds hot but any one who lived in the South or Midwest US during this Summer can tell you that's not far from the ambient temperature. I would prefer shellac thank you.
.......................Paul Aviles
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Author: jbutler ★2017
Date: 2011-10-22 01:44
I don't use "hot glue" except in one application: student line saxophones. I use George's glue for clarinet, oboe, flute trill, and piccolo pads. I use stick shellac for pro line sax pads, harmony clarinet and bassoon.
John Butler
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Author: Bob Phillips
Date: 2011-10-22 05:54
I think that the shellac used in pad setting is the processed material that is extracted from lac beetles.
Shellac used as a wood finish is that material dissolved in alcohol.
Commercial liquid shellac has a pound or two shellac dissolved in a quart of alcohol.
Bob Phillips
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Author: Elkwoman46
Date: 2011-10-22 20:06
Thank you so much for the shellac information, Bob Phillips.
And thank you everyone for the very valuable information; I really appreciate it.
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Author: Bob Bernardo
Date: 2011-10-22 21:20
It's actually a bit harder to put on those pads, because some of the pads won't make that seal on the ring of the key hole, so unless the pad is perfectly sealed you may always have a leak. Anyway, this is one of the reasons I still prefer cork pads on the upper register and good quality lower register, often skin type of pads. I'm not too keen wth the Valentino pads, but the surely aren't the worst.
Designer of - Vintage 1940 Cicero Mouthpieces and the La Vecchia mouthpieces
Yamaha Artist 2015
Post Edited (2011-10-23 23:59)
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Author: clarnibass
Date: 2011-10-25 07:27
>> It is my understanding that the hot glue becomes moveable around 130 degrees fahrenheit (this is why techs can use hair dryers for this) <<
Hot glues vary a lot in melting (i.e. "becoming movable") temperature. Many types that are used in woodwind repair melt at a higher temp but even some types considered relatively low temp can resist weather just fine.
>> I don't use "hot glue" except in one application: student line saxophones. I use George's glue for clarinet, oboe, flute trill, and piccolo pads. <<
Isn't George's glue a type of hot glue? I've tried it and I consider it a type of hot glue. Even shellac is a type of hot glue really and some "shellacs" (i.e. glued advetised as shellac) aren't really shellac but a synthetic material that acts pretty much like shellac... so it's actually hot glue.
>> Hot glue melts and becomes sticky at a much lower temperature than shellac, so it's better suited to synthetic pads which can melt if the temperature is too high. <<
I agree. Though sometimes, it is not the glue temp that is the problem but the heat source. Sometimes, even using a relatively low temp flame, making sure to only use it to the side of the key, it will be too hot for synthetic pads. It also depends on the type of synthetic pad, some have a more heat resistant rigid back, for example. Which is why I normally don't use a flame near most synthetic pads (eventhough it works fine most of the time).
>> The downside of using glue sticks is the glue is very sticky and contact with skin will cause burns and also can take the top layer of skin off with it. <<
I don't think I got burned by hot glue more than by shellac and I don't think I use one much more than the other. Actually since I mostly use hot glue in pellets, burning is less likely. In general, when I do get a burn, I found the ones from shellac are often a little worse.
>> A third option is to use a cold adhesive. Some technicians prefer to apply adhesive and seat pads without heating the pad cups. <<
There are a few reasons I don't like this method. First, it's usually much slower, pads can't be replaced while someone is waiting etc. In addition there is the crucial moment the glue starts to harden. It is crucial the pad is exactly adjusted in that moment and when this moment could be any mostly unknown time in a very long wait, it's an issue. Some prefer to (pretend to) play the instrument while the glue dries, but for some technical reasons (which I can explain if interested) this often doesn't result in a good sealing pad (can leak at the front). Not to mention there's no going back if there's a mistake and you have to redo, which is so slow.
>> Instead the keys themselves are bent slightly to provide a better seal. <<
Keys are bent to better shape and position often regardless of the type of glue used. There are reasons why sometimes it's better to adjust a key by bending and not by "floating" the pad.
>> If synthetic pads are not self-adhesive <<
Self adhesive is a good emergency but not so reliable. Self adhesive glues often don't last as long nd are not as resisting to heat and humidity. You are restricted by the exact thickness of the pad, which is almost never 100% correct for a good front and back seal. The back of the cup (especially on most clarinets) is not flat, so the pad only really contacts the sides, with air gaps and lack of support behind the pad, making it very unreliable.
Post Edited (2011-10-26 09:00)
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