 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: clarchick
Date: 2011-09-23 19:17
Help. Third register blues! I'm flat, I'm sharp, I'm not even close. Trick fingerings? "voicing"? Reeds? I have three mp's: Vandoren 5rv, B40, and an old chedeville buffet. Standard rovner lig. Help.
Particular notes: C#, D#-G# oddly enough, D is ok. In the music we are playing, I have to match the piccolo......oh goody. Thanks for help.
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Author: clarchick
Date: 2011-09-23 19:31
Oddly enough, it seems to be better w out the right pinky key. Is this normal?
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Author: bradfordlloyd
Date: 2011-09-23 19:51
You may want to try a custom barrel. I was being driven crazy by intonation issues on my eefer (I could make altissimo work, but then everything else was a mess) until I worked through it with a custom barrel guy. This issues have been significantly reduced as he could "fix" some of the issues with alterations to bore size in the brrell (I'm not smart enough to know how that works, just that the results were amazing).
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Author: Ed Palanker
Date: 2011-09-23 19:58
You have to play the Eb clarinet by ear and if you can't adjust a note or two by voicing, embouchure etc. you need to go to a good tech and have your clarinet adjusted to the way you need it. You said, sharp and flat, it can't be both ways on the same note unless it's you so which notes are very sharp and which ones are very flat?ESP eddiesclarinet.com
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Author: clarchick
Date: 2011-09-23 20:53
Thanks,
C# and D# in particular are sharp, but high F-G# are flat. I am sure it is me-the Eb is in great shape. I just dont know what to do to make consistent.
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Author: FDF
Date: 2011-09-23 22:55
disclaimer: I don't nothin bout an E flat, but could you be blowen too hard?
Post Edited (2011-09-23 22:56)
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Author: DAVE
Date: 2011-09-23 23:18
Here are some things to try. First of all, it's normal to have trouble with tuning, so relax. Playing with the picc is like playing cat and mouse, but eventually you'll get a hang of it.
1) Try NOT using the octave key for clarion A-D.
2) For clarion B and C you can put the 3 fingers of the right hand down
3) Clarion B can be fingered with the middle finger left hand rather than the index
4) High F#--- try overblowing a clarion Bb, or use Long F#
5) Make sure you are using a cut off Bb reed. Don't waste your time with Eb reeds. I use cut off White Master 3s on my B40. (I have a video that I posted on this BB a few days ago)
6) Oh! Don't forget overblowing throat fingerings! First finger for C#, open D, G# for D#, Bb for E, add the 2nd side key for F.
7) Playing Eb well requires you to listen carefully and be able to adjust at a moment's notice with a whole arsenal of fingerings. Also, you may begin to notice that the flutes and picc play particularly sharp up high. Well, be prepared for some high fingerings.
8) Practice!
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Author: Wes
Date: 2011-09-24 21:11
May I respectfully suggest that you do not feel responsible or guilty if you cannot match the sharp pitches of the out of tune piccolo or flute players. The piccolo and flute can be played in tune but are often not.
The piccolo gets sharp in it's first two registers if the player does not practice enough, does not use a proper embouchure, or the instrument is leaky. The flutes are likely to be sharp in their third register if the player does not practice(with a tuner), does not use the Galway frowning embouchure, or doesn't aim the air at the toes.
Good Luck!
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Author: Ryan25
Date: 2011-09-26 01:52
Just want to add one thing to dave's good advice.
Successful eflat playing requires strong voicing technique. Playing a high g above the staff and voicing that pitch the same way as you would on the bflat clarinet is a recipie for flat or otherwise unstable pitch. Playing in tune with a picc or flute is a chalenge but its workable provided u get your pitch tendencys consistent.
Along with the great advice dave gave, work on a more focused air stream and a more pointed chin and tighter lips when needed. By focused air, I mean the difference between blowing through a normal straw and then blowing through a a small straw used to stir coffee.
Good luck taming the beast!
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Author: TianL
Date: 2011-09-26 03:26
at your currently stage of playing i wouldn't try a new barrel as someone suggested above.. i think the main thing is that you just gotta practice. These are very delicate notes and you almost have to have everything right to be able to play them, such as your tongue's gotta be in the right position, your fingers can't have airs leaking out, your embouchure is gotta be firm, etc. Some mouthpieces are a bit easier for high notes, but your 5RV and B40 should both be fine. make sure your chin is stretched down.
Just remember that before you get them, it feels impossible (and I bet everyone had experienced this stage) but once you get them they will feel easy
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Author: Bob Bernardo
Date: 2011-09-26 08:19
Have you played it very long? Sometimes the more you play it , like everyday you will learn how to tame this beast. You have some decent MP's so I'd try to settle in on the correct reed first. Pitch is high and low is a sign that the reed is soft or you may be biting the heck out of the reed in the upper register. Take a few lessons from your local Eb symphony player.
Once you get set up correctly, it's a blast to play.
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Author: Ed Palanker
Date: 2011-09-26 16:54
You could try the side C# whenever possible, same as the side F# throat tone. Of course don't use the Ab-Eb RH pinky when playing the normal fingering. Also, try the middle finger for the D# instead of the sliver key, it's usually flatter. If that does not work try a bit of tape in the holes below those notes to bring the pitch down unless it makes the fundamentals too flat in which case you either have to work at lipping them down, adding one of the pinky fingers other then the Ab-Eb to make them flatter, experiment to see if one of them works, maybe the E-B key.
As far as the higher notes being flat, you have to find fingerings that work. Opening keys like the side throat G# brings the pitch higher on many notes, I even use that on my Selmer Bb for the high E and F. Also, opening the side Eb-Bb side key will raise the pitch of several notes. Hi F# has many good fingerings as does the G and G#. Once, when having to come in on a high G# on Eb clarinet with the flute or pic I had to play a high A and slightly lip it down, it came our perfect.
I have a fingering chart for Bb-A clarinets on my website for that register and many of those fingerings work very well on Eb as well. Experiment. ESP
eddiesclarinet.com
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Author: Eric V
Date: 2011-09-27 04:20
Hi clarchick,
One might think from reading threads on this board that it's just not worth trying regular Eb reeds. But just as in every other equipment case, what works for one may not work for another, so you gotta try it yourself and see. For me the V12 #3.0 Eb reeds work the best on my HS* mouthpiece. (Although I admit my Hawkins MP likes the white masters.)
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Author: Alphie
Date: 2011-09-27 20:32
Everyone who seriously study the Eb-clarinet should have Peter Hadcock's book with excerpts and very good alternative fingerings:
http://www.vcisinc.com/clarinetmusicexcerpts.htm#C036 (scroll down)
You don't mention what label you play. With Eb clar you should stick to the big four to avoid severe problems, Buffet Selmer LeBlanc Yamaha. Fine cheaper instruments are Buffet E11 and Noblet Artist.
Your B40 should be fine for high notes with practicing.
In my opinion you would need a reed with a lot of material at the bottom of the facing. Cut off White Master #3-3½ should work fine with B40 in altissimo given that your personnal preparation is ok.
When learning how to play the Eb clar it's very important to not "jump the gun", meaning not playing higher than you can master without pinching. Given that the material, instrument mouthpiece and reed is of a high quality the key word is air-stream. I'm not usually a fan of the expression "pointed chin", but here it makes sence to open up your cavity in a good way, especially in the altissimo.
Practice your scales up to the point when you feel tempted to pinch, but turn back before you do. Take regular breaks. When you feel tired, call it a day! Maybe you can play one note higher the next day. Small steps and a lot of patience. There are no tricks or short cuts!
Alphie
Clarinet/Eb-clarinet RSPO
Post Edited (2011-09-27 22:09)
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Author: Ken Shaw ★2017
Date: 2011-09-27 21:24
clarchick -
I assume you're playing in a band. If so, remember that you're not a soloist when you play Eb. The concertmaster is still the 1st chair Bb player. It's very easy to shriek and squeal on Eb. Instead, you have to play softer than you think. You're there to add sparkle to the basic clarinet section sound. Listen hard to the 1st clarinets (and flutes and piccolos) and blend in with them.
Since consistency is a problem, I suspect a messed-up mouthpiece. Buffet stock mouthpieces, such as yours, are almost never playable. If the Vandorens are also school property, they may be (and probably are) beaten to death. You really must get your own. Machine-made mouthpieces (Vandoren, Selmer, etc.) can be decent, but can also be awful, since too few are sold for the companies to keep their machinery in adjustment. It's far better to get one from a Woodwind.org Sponsor -- Fobes, Grabner, Lomax, etc. -- which will be hand-finished and will give you at least a chance of getting out what the instrument has to offer. Remember that you'll keep this mouthpiece forever, and you'll always be able to play Eb, so get as good as you can afford.
The Eb takes a lot of learning. Sit in a practice room with a tuner, finding how to play in tune. Play octave leaps (up and down), concentrating on matching the high ones to the low ones and carrying the warmth of the low register into the high.
Don't rule out an instrument problem, particularly if you're playing a school instrument. Here's my saga:
At the U. of Tennessee, I played a school Leblanc LL Eb, on which the high B-C-C#-D were very sharp. The reason was that the barrel was far too short to be in tune. I went to a hardware store, got some washers for a garden hose and filed and sanded them down to fit in the top and bottom barrel sockets, adding maybe 6 mm. to the barrel length. I also enlarged the interior of each washer to match the bore, using sandpaper wrapped around a short length of dowel. It took a little over an hour, but if you can adjust reeds, you can do this, too. The extra length brought the instrument nicely in tune. You'll need a piece of fairly coarse sandpaper -- such as 40 or 60 grit -- and a short piece of dowel (just a few inches long). It played well enough to make me comfortable in the band and sub in the Knoxville Symphony.
Fobes makes an Eb extension piece that goes between the lower end of the body and the bell. I haven't tried it, but he's an excellent player and maker. It's not cheap, but if you're interested in being a full-time Eb player, it's worth trying http://www.clarkwfobes.com/clarinet_EbExtension.html
You'll be tempted to use harder reeds than on Bb, but you should go at most one strength up. The rest is embouchure and support.
Since the Eb is on top of the texture, your intonation has to be really precise, and Eb often needs special fingerings. Pete Hadcock, the Boston Symphony Eb player, wrote an invaluable book on Eb, with many alternate fingerings, and another on orchestral playing, which you can get from Gary van Cott, http://www.vcisinc.com/clarinetmusicexcerpts.htm#C036 and http://www.vcisinc.com/clarinetmusicexcerpts.htm#C043.
Practice nothing but Eb for at least a week, playing very slow scales and arpeggios and listening like crazy. Have courage, and let us know how it goes.
Ken Shaw
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