 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: Bb R13 greenline
Date: 2011-09-18 22:24
I've been looking into what college I want to apply for and from what i have read and have been told UNT has a huge student body, very competative, and a good school. how would it compare to a really prestigious school like Julliard? and also to a more common school here in Florida like FSU. I have visited FSU already and it is a beautiful campus but something about UNT just grabs me. I dont really know why but i feel its the school for me.
Post Edited (2011-09-18 23:24)
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Author: ww.player
Date: 2011-09-18 23:53
Here's a lot of facts and things to consider.
UNT is a huge school of music, the third largest in the US. The clarinet department is large and has a couple of well respected professors. Only the best undergraduates get to study with professors because about 1/3 of the music school is graduate students.
Competition is tough to make any ensemble, and you have to be an amazing player coming through the door to have any shot at ever playing in the orchestra. It's a top notch school for everything except strings. Since string programs are generally weak in Texas, the string section is not as strong as the other sections. The top wind ensemble is excellent and a really solid player has a good shot at making it as an undergrad as many of the TA's pass on playing in it.
Even though DFW is one of the largest metropolitan areas in the country, classical music never has been big so performance opportunities outside of school are pretty much non-existent.
The education would be comparable to Julliard. However, you don't have the benefits of being in New York's culture or studying with NY Phil or Met Orchestra members. A degree from UNT is considered at the same level as Julliard, Eastman, New England, Northwestern, Cincinnati, Curtis, etc.... It will generally open as many professional doors, with the exception that the faculty doesn't have as many connections at the top symphonic level. If you plan on playing in a symphony like New York, Boston, Philadelphia, or Chicago, then one of the east coast schools would definitely be the way to go. Just be forewarned, there are 1,000's of other amazingly talented clarinetists that you'll have to beat out for one of those jobs.
It's never a bad idea to go to school in the area where you want to end up living because of all the future professional contacts you will make in school. FSU, Miami, and U of F all have excellent schools of music. If you want to end up in Florida, they might be your best bet.
Another consideration is are you going to get an education or performance degree? If going ed, you will want to get your bachelor's in the state where you will be teaching to be sure there aren't any certification issues. Teachers in Texas are getting laid off literally by the 1,000's. Also, will you be getting a Masters? If so, where you get your bachelors is not as important.
If you're good enough to get into Julliard, then you probably can get a free ride at many excellent schools of music. Since UNT has so many graduate students, they pretty much don't give anything more than a nominal scholarship that entitles you to pay in-state tuition. As a state school, their FAFSA funds get used up pretty quickly. If you qualify for financial aid, you will need to apply early and have all your FAFSA info, including your parents' tax returns, done as early as possible.
Also, as a state school, UNT admits many good but not great music students. They then use the performance, theory, and keyboard barriers to weed out the weaker students. Well over 50% of undergraduate music students never graduate with a music degree (if you're coming to UNT, I would highly recommend taking piano, theory, and sight singing lessons). Since it's so tough to get, a degree from UNT counts for a lot in the professional world.
Post Edited (2011-09-18 23:58)
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Author: Bb R13 greenline
Date: 2011-09-19 00:13
wow thank you for all the info! I know it's a risky career move but I am going for a degree in performance. my dream would be to either play in an orchestra or teach on the collegiant level, my second choice would be and army band or some other form of work where i would be able to play my clarinet. I really like competativeness and to here that a degree from UNT is comparable to one from Julliard is more than i ever hoped! I've always heard that Texas is a booming place for music, any ideas on what kind of jobs are available there? even though its a challenge i think UNT is definately at the top of my list.
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Author: rmk54
Date: 2011-09-19 00:32
Please beware of people who pronounce themselves to be experts.
This guy can't even spell Juilliard.
A degree from UNT is *not* the same as any high level conservatory. I'm not saying it is worthless, but UNT just doesn't have the same reputation.
Oh, and by the way, there are a ton of opportunities to perform classical music in the DFW area. I have a close relative who attended as a performance major and she was able to support herself quite easily. But then, she had an undergraduate degree from a major conservatory.
But don't take my word for all this; do a lot of research and talk to as many people as you can. If you want to play professionally in an orchestra, learn where these professionals went to school and the teachers they studied with. I think you will see a pattern emerging, and it will be different than what you have been led to expect from one internet posting.
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Author: EEBaum
Date: 2011-09-19 00:59
Never mind the prestige of the degree. A year out of college, nobody gives a crap where you went to school. Look for a place that teaches what you want to learn and has a compatible environment for you.
-Alex
www.mostlydifferent.com
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Author: Mark Charette
Date: 2011-09-19 01:33
>A year out of college,
> nobody gives a crap where you went to school.
It would be nice if that were true. It isn't.
> Look for a place
> that teaches what you want to learn and has a compatible
> environment for you.
True, that.
The prestige of a school is directly proportional to the number of influential contacts you will probably need to make a career in orchestral music. There are certainly some exceptions, but in general connections can open doors that you didn't even know existed. Recommendations matter.
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Author: Ken Shaw ★2017
Date: 2011-09-19 11:40
If you can get into Juilliard and are willing to dedicate your entire attention and life to playing clarinet, I'd say come to NYC. A mentoring relationship with a well known player and teacher can give you an entree that is essential in getting work.
Even better would be Curtis, but they take only a few players each year.
It's said that the Cleveland orchestra took Robert Marcelllus on Daniel Bonade's recommendation, without an audition. Those days are gone, but knowing what's going on locally is still important.
Ken Shaw
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Author: ww.player
Date: 2011-09-19 17:42
OP, Texas music is booming if you want to play in a C&W or alternative rock band. Other opportunities are limited. Here's the local scene.
Texas is a right to work state, so legally you don't have to be a member of the musician's union to play a gig. This means the union is very weak here. They may tell you that you have to join the union to do a gig, but technically this is only true for union trust fund jobs. Still, it's better to join than to argue with contractors. There is a discounted student rate.
Dallas is a solid mid-level second tier symphony. Fort Worth is trying hard to be. The chances of playing with them are nil. Their sub list includes the top regional pros and college professors. Like I said, classical music never has been that popular here. Both operas are in serious trouble and have had to radically alter their seasons and concert schedules. Both symphonies are barely hanging on, despite having relatively new concert halls.
There are about 5 civic symphonies that do 5 to 10 concerts a year. They pay almost enough to cover gas money. There are hundreds, if not thousands, of local graduates from UNT, TCU, and SMU just waiting for someone to retire or die so they can take their place in one of these. Since Texas allows students to take private lessons during the school day, there is a huge contingent of excellent players that make a good living teaching. This means massive competition for whatever local gigs there are. The only openings I have ever seen advertised are in the string sections (not that I've been looking). There is a professional wind band that is doing surprisingly well, but it is filled with professional players, teachers, and band directors. Chances would be slim to ever do more than perhaps sub for a concert in one of these groups, and that's if you know the right people.
There is a volunteer symphony (Fort Worth Civic Symphony) that takes all comers. The quality is OK, not great but not horrible. Some players are strong, some are pretty weak for the literature. There are many community bands that are OK for what they are, but are generally very amateurish. There are several mega-churches that contract out for some or all of their orchestra. Once again, it might cover gas money from Denton, and it's generally not the most challenging of music, but it can be rewarding if you're a Christian (you do know that Denton is like 45 minutes outside of Dallas or Fort Worth, right?).
There are occasional local gigs for things like social functions, ceremonies, and holidays. Trust fund money has dried up. There was a fair amount of recording going on here a few years ago, but most of that has moved to LA or Nashville. You have to know the right people to get in on any of this.
I know a lot of fantastic musicians that are playing in various types of ensembles for free just for the chance to play. Live music everywhere is drying up as a vocation, partly because there are so many good quasi-professional musicians that are willing to play for nothing or next to nothing. It seems that many people just expect to be entertained for free. I think the internet has a lot to do with it. Many venues and functions that used to have live music are going to recorded music or DJ's. It's not the best time to be a performing artist anywhere in music that's outside the pop/rock/rap genre.
Post Edited (2011-09-19 20:42)
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Author: Ed Palanker
Date: 2011-09-19 22:41
Go to the school that has the teacher you feel most comfortable with. Take a lesson with as many as you can to see which one you connect with. Of course consider how much you have to pay for your education. Don't go into debt because it's almost impossible to get a job in the first place so you probably will have problems paying it back, unless you make a living out of music or you're very lucky. ESP eddiesclarinet.com
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Author: Dileep Gangolli
Date: 2011-09-19 23:35
Hopefully by the time you graduate there will be one or two public schools or orchestras for you to work in.
Better bet would be to go to the Shanghai Conservatory.
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Author: clarnibass
Date: 2011-09-20 05:03
>> It would be nice if that were true. It isn't. <<
Obvioulsy I can't generalize, it only takes one case of this to show it isn't true, but I can say for me it is. I mean, where I went to school mattered in that I happened to meet the specific peple that were there. But I can say everyone I've played with since never cared where I went to school. It was never relevant. Same for the places and times I didn't play. I guess it depends.
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Author: EEBaum
Date: 2011-09-20 05:36
Wherever you go, I highly recommend approaching a degree in performance as an opportunity to learn an awesome and highly-refined skillset, to get to know people, and to become adept at seeking out and creating opportunities. Applying for jobs to play music, and waiting for people to call you to play music, are almost guaranteed to not pay the bills.
Keep this in mind as you choose a school. Look for a place that you think will maximize your opportunities to do things with music other than practicing-etudes-and-rep-with-the-goal-of-getting-a-job-playing-music. If I were looking for a school now, I'd be sure to at least consider the following criteria (in addition to the ever-important teacher compatibility, networking, etc.):
- Prevalence of musical community outside of school-run ensembles: do the students form their own ensembles, do they play shows off-campus, do they connect with people other than their tight circles, do they listen to music not taught in classes, do they play folk, punk, rock, noise in local bands?
- Availability of non-musical topics you find interesting. Perhaps you have an untapped skill in linguistics or physics or political science that could lead you in a completely different yet fulfilling path. Or perhaps you could combine it with your music.
- Freedom to change or augment your career path. If you do find a love for linguistics, can you change? Will it require dropping music? Leaving the institution altogether? Taking out an extra $25,000 in student loans for the extra year you'll be there?
As an aside, lately, I've come to regard "competitive" as an entirely irrelevant criterion for choosing a music school (other than how competitive it is to get in). Classical music today is a niche genre that is grossly overpopulated. If your only motivation is to climb up a couple rungs in the pecking order, you're missing out on opportunities. The opportunities may be branching out into other genres, like folk or noise or metal or something that hasn't been invented yet -- opportunities for exploration and uniqueness. Or the opportunities may be starting your own classical ensemble that doesn't play at extending boundaries at all, but at enriching and expanding the existing landscape. Regardless, they are opportunities, and if the competition is your primary driving force, you're sure to be completely lost after graduation.
As ww.player suggests, music isn't a terribly lucrative vocation at this point. Going for a degree and hoping that someone will hire you based on your musical chops alone is almost certain failure. Nobody gives a crap that you were first chair in the Juilliard orchestra. Someone else was first chair in the Juilliard orchestra before you were, and someone else will be after you leave. There will, by its very existence, always be someone first chair in the Juilliard orchestra.
-Alex
www.mostlydifferent.com
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Author: TheGreekDon09
Date: 2011-09-21 05:32
As a clarinet performance and music education double major here at the University of North Texas, I'm kind of appalled to read what people are saying about this amazing school of music. I challenge anyone to come here and see if they could survive. We have some of the best musicians in every field come from around the world to study here. We have an atmosphere of cooperation that you will be hard pressed to find in such a big institution. As for the prestige of this school and the weight diplomas we earn, a piece a paper no matter where you print it from or where you hang it is worth absolutely nothing unless you DO with it. That's what truly determines the weight of your degree. I think the number one thing I have learned from my private instructor, and he reminds me of it often, is to always be professional. A lesson I think many the commentators on here should heed. Professionalism is what's going to get your far in life.
I wish the best for you, Bb R13 Greenline, in the tough decision you have to make ahead and no matter where you go just do your the very best you can. That's all anyone could ever ask anyways.
-Bb
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Author: TheGreekDon09
Date: 2011-09-21 13:50
This is a very large school or music. You have to be able to deal with being a little fish in a small pond and being able to still make progress. Much like the real world on a obviously smaller scale. I guess I'm an idiot for thinking that that's a little difficult.
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Author: NBeaty
Date: 2011-09-21 14:46
Alex- we are all aware of your opinions and thoughts on the music industry, the question was about the University of North Texas, which you haven't really addressed specifically.
Performing opportunities in the area DO EXIST! They're more common for students here than when I was in Montreal, which is much more 'cultured'. Yes, you do have to be very good to get them, but they're no less common than other areas. In fact, since the DFW area is so large, playing in a small orchestra outside of school is very possible for capable players, you just have to drive a bit.
Performing opportunities in school ALSO EXIST! Like most schools, it is difficult to get in to the orchestras (even though there are 2) as a Freshman. I don't think getting in to the orchestra as a freshman would be a very good indicator of a good school, since it would basically mean you have at most 3 or 4 players that are better than you and you will not learn as much. We have 2 orchestras and 3 (almost 4, since the concert band is essentially split in to two groups). I would wager that the symphonic band (second band) is as good as your average top group at most institutions. The Wind Symphony is a world-class group that hardly needs introduction with a director that is legendary.
The school strings are very competitive, I'm not sure why someone in an above post would say that "strings are weak in Texas". UNT has a large student body, so you can find some weaker players in each section if you go down far enough. However, most students are very competitive and I haven't noticed any reduction in quality compared to players I've heard that go to more "prestigious" institutions.
Teaching opportunities in Denton and the DFW area are almost unmatched by any place I've heard of. Anyone (and I've seen Freshman\Sophomores do it) can find a place to get a private studio started. As my teacher told me when I first came here, "we've never had enough teachers to satisfy the need".
Teaching opportunities for music education students when they graduate is HIGH in Texas. I've been to several schools in Texas and known a lot of music education students. Almost all of them (that didn't go on to graduate school) found a job in the place they wanted to live pretty easily.
The jazz program is by far one of the top programs in the country, if that has any interest for you.
In addition to the performance and teaching opportunities in and out of school, the professors of clarinet are amazing. Kimberly Cole-Luevano is our newest faculty member (replacing Jim Gillespie). She is an inspiring performer and teacher and is very committed to her students. John Scott is also an incredible player and teacher. The teachers all get a long with eachother very well (not always the case in schools with multiple teachers). If I ever have a clarinet question, I'm free to go knock on any of the teachers doors and they will gladly field my question.
As far as meeting "the right people" to get connected in the clarinet community, knowing these two people and going to ICA Clarinetfest every year will do a lot for you.
If you want to know anything else specific, email me.
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Author: NBeaty
Date: 2011-09-21 14:52
By the way Alex- you talk "doom and gloom" about the music industry all the time, I would think "survive" would be a welcomed word to the discussion.
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Author: Jack Kissinger
Date: 2011-09-21 16:43
Actually, I think Alex was questioning the Greek Don's (TGD's) suggestion that it might be difficult to survive in UNT's music program.
So here, FWIW, are a few comments, largely based on my experience of almost 40 years teaching (though not music) in a university environment.
1. A talented student who works hard can get a good education at just about any college or university. The opportunities are there. The student just has to find and take advantage of them -- to take responsibility for his/her education. Sometimes, the so-called "better" schools have more opportunities.
2. Good researchers and good performers are not necessarily good teachers. Being a good teacher involves communication skills and a commitment to teach (i.e., teaching isn't something one does to fill time when one isn't doing research or practicing or performing, and certainly isn't something one views as an impediment to the "more important" tasks of research, practicing and performing, or a necessary evil if one wants to hold a university position).
3. Great performers who are good teachers will usually take their students further than good performers who are good teachers.
4. The number of really good clarinet professors in college/university programs far exceeds the number of prestigious programs. This is because the number of well-trained dedicated clarinet teachers far exceeds the number of positions available in the prestigious programs so high-quality teachers, teachers capable of being in prestigious programs, have to settle for "second-tier" universities because that's where they can find openings. Thus students can find outstanding teachers at "second-tier" schools.
5. Most states have a two-tiered system of universities. The top tier usually consists of only one or two flagship schools, e.g., in Michigan, the top tier are the University of Michigan and Michigan State. The second tier includes Ferris State, Wayne State, Eastern Michigan, Central Michigan, Western Michigan. In Texas the top tier is U.T. Austin. UNT is a second-tier school. Over the long haul, the second tier schools typically receive less support from the legislature so they have to make do with fewer resources. They can have (usually through serendipity or legislative design) a few programs that are truly outstanding, but overall their programs (and it's hard to find the right words here) are not as strong across the board as the top-tier schools'. And there are implications for students. An accounting degree from U.T. Austin will generally open doors anywhere in the country. An accounting degree from UNT will probably serve students very well in the Dallas-Fort Worth area, not so well outside the region.
6. Historically, the primary objective of second-tier state schools has been to provide K-12 teachers for schools within the state. In fact, in some states, those schools were referred to as "State Teachers' Colleges." That objective, taken to extremes, has sometimes outweighed the objective of educating students to prepare them for a future career. I may be wrong because my direct experience with UNT is limited but I would expect that the focus of the music program is education rather than performance. My prior expectation would be that music education majors (and, education/performance double-majors) far outnumber performance majors.
So here are a few questions for those of you at UNT, whose answers may (or may not) be useful to Bb R13 Greenline:
1. How many students are in the undergraduate music program at UNT? What percentage of undergraduate students in the music program (preferably excluding the jazz program, which I believe is a long-standing niche center of excellence at UNT) are performance majors?
2. Are most of UNT's undergraduate music majors from Texas? What percentage come from other states/countries? Which states/countries are represented?
3. Over the past four years, how many different undergraduate clarinet performance majors have played in one of the two orchestras? Or are these positions typically filled by DMA and master's students?
4. Do most of the undergraduate clarinet performance majors have facility with extended techniques -- multiphonics, multiple-tonguing, circular breathing?
5. How many of the undergraduate clarinet performance majors have taken lessons on the Nielsen Concerto? the Corigliano Concerto?
6. What are the recital requirements for undergraduate clarinet performance majors?
7. I see, in the most recent issue of The Clarinet, several DMA recital programs from UNT. IMO, some of the programs were pretty impressive including works like Stockhausen's Im Freundschaft, Tomasi's Concerto, Bug by Mantovani. Where do UNT's DMA students come from? Are their undergraduate degrees usually from UNT or from other schools?
I realize some of these statistics may not be readily available. In such cases, your ball park estimates should suffice.
Best regards,
jnk
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Author: EEBaum
Date: 2011-09-21 17:17
Thanks, Jack, that's exactly what I was getting at in your 1-4.
And, to get it out of the way, I've heard mostly good things about UNT. I know people who have gone there, and I would recommend people go there if they find it a good fit.
I may seem to be pissy about career topics around here, and my main beef is this: I see lots of really great performers with some highly-refined artistry and technical skill who graduate and seem lost. They're all good enough to land jobs, but there simply aren't nearly enough jobs to go around. But I also see a lot of demand and a lot of untapped potential of people who want live music. The problem is connecting the two, and the problem isn't solved by today's orchestras, and the problem isn't solved by musicians who wait for calls to play.
I find the most absolutely critical aspects of making it as a musician today to be these, and I would look first and foremost for a school that provides opportunities for them:
- A rich network of flexible, energetic, entrepreneurial musicians
- A push toward performing in and starting ensembles not organized by a higher power
- Exposure to topics of interest outside your primary focus, and the opportunity to pursue them in some depth. This can be as far away as computer science, philosophy, or kinesiology, or as nearby as tabla, black metal, or sound art.
I consider one of the biggest downsides to the typical classically-trained performer's career prospects to be the performer's interchangeability. As a clarinetist in an orchestra, you are entirely replaceable... in fact, your replacement is INEVITABLE because the orchestra plans to continue to exist after you die, so the only question is when. You're not needed after your departure, so by extension, your entry into the group is also of less consequence. But you may be the only clarinetist who can improvise tihais, or the only clarinetist who plays folk and metal, or the only clarinetist who has declared yourself a permanent member of the ensemble you run.
Also, as much as I downplay the importance of school ensembles as an item of focus, they are incredibly valuable for breadth and caliber of experience. Jack's question #3 is a biggie.
-Alex
www.mostlydifferent.com
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Author: Katrina
Date: 2011-09-21 18:35
Yes, Alex...Being a musician today is about the entrepreneurial skills that aren't usually taught in a conservatory. Or maybe they are now. They certainly weren't when I was at Oberlin (86-90) or Northwestern U (90-91).
And just to throw a curveball to Jack and David: what about good performers who are great teachers? (FWIW, I consider myself one of these...)
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Author: rtmyth
Date: 2011-09-21 19:15
For a current salary scale , check the San Antonio Symphony new contract offer.
richard smith
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Author: Bb R13 greenline
Date: 2011-09-21 22:02
thank you everyone for all of the great information! I think what I would benefit most from is hearing how the teachers of every college i consider going to play, but i can't find a recording of any of the teachers at UNT.
in regards to the opportunities a university can give me and finding a job. I have from pretty much the very beggining decided that i love playing and if i get a job it will be music related so changing my degree to something like english or math is very unlikely. If I don't get a job performing than at the very least I would teach theory, or music history. Anything music related is better than none. Ill definitely try to make connections like everyone here suggests i didnt realise they were that important. I thought it was just how well you played
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Author: EEBaum
Date: 2011-09-22 00:29
"at the very least I would teach theory, or music history"
Fairly competitive market for that, as well. Lots of unemployed and underemployed composition and history graduates. Especially composition.
As for English or math, I'm not suggesting changing your degree as much as allowing yourself the greatest possible opportunities to broaden and augment your focus. One of the complaints about the (really awesome) art school where I just finished my masters is that their math offerings are nonexistent. I had 3 years of math in my undergrad as a computer science major (calc, probability, linear algebra) as well as a year of physics, so it didn't bother me, but I know quite a few who wish they'd had the opportunity to take more math in college. My discrete structures and algorithms courses, for example, led to my very opinionated nature regarding pitch class set theory, and I kept up in my digital audio effects class better than some music tech majors.
More things are and can be interrelated to music than you might think.
I see lots of musicians that seem to think something's magical when there's math in it easily swayed by simplistic or bogus arguments that quote scientific concepts. Learning about the doppeler effect in a physics class can help you calculate whether the pitch shift from swinging side to side while you play is actually noticeable or negligible. Math experience can help determine whether a composer's use of some self-invented mathematical concept can actually be reduced to a very simplistic formula. Or outside of math, experience in foreign languages and cultures helps separate pieces genuinely based on Zen concepts from those written by someone who red The Tao of Cow on a coffee table and thinks they're suddenly an expert in Eastern culture.
If you focus only on things that say "MUSIC" on their surface, you'll miss out on a lot of the intricacies of music.
Otherwise, getting yourself into a situation where you hit the ground running after graduation, I find more important than even how well you play (within reason). That's what determines how active you'll be a performer a year down the road, what determines whether you're helping create and further a musical scene, or clawing for seats in the local community orchestra.
-Alex
www.mostlydifferent.com
Post Edited (2011-09-22 00:30)
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Author: Dan Oberlin ★2017
Date: 2011-09-22 11:23
You could apply to both UNT and FSU (admission as a clarinet major is not a sure thing). If money is any sort of a consideration, in-state tuition and the Florida Bright Futures program may be two things to consider. The two clarinet teachers
here at FSU are both great teachers, great players, and great people. Their studios are full of really fine young clarinetists.
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Author: puffball
Date: 2011-09-23 04:07
"at the very least I would teach theory, or music history."
Just to expand on Alex's words of warning about this, you should be aware that in fact these fields are VERY competitive -- much as in performance, there are many more talented scholar-musicians who want jobs than there are jobs available. As a performer with an MM or a DMA you are unlikely to be qualified for most music theory or music history teaching positions at the college level. For that, you need a Ph.D. in either music theory or musicology. That's certainly something that an undergrad degree in performance qualifies you to pursue, but at that point, your path has diverged from performance as a career because you are pursuing a different specialty within music.
This is not to say that there may not be history or theory teaching options for MMs/DMAs, especially in very small schools/community colleges where a handful of music generalists must "do it all," but that's a different career prospect.
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Author: pierrot
Date: 2011-10-01 04:57
UNT? A quality school for classical music and (or) clarinet playing? That is a bit of a stretch. Who are the great clarinet students that have come out of that program in the last 20 years? Can someone give us the stats and the facts of what the history records show?
If it is a good school the records should speak for themselves....who are their most prominent clarinet students in the last 20 years and what are they doing professionally? These records should speak for themselves.
Post Edited (2011-10-01 05:11)
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Author: EEBaum
Date: 2011-10-01 06:08
Great clarinet students? How many schools can you name that have graduated "great clarinet students"?
I hardly consider professional prominence to be a valid metric of a clarinet program. It's not like the field is exactly vibrant with professional opportunities.
-Alex
www.mostlydifferent.com
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Author: NBeaty
Date: 2011-10-02 02:53
As recently as the last few months, the following things have happened by UNT Grads:
Kim Cole-Luevano is now TEACHING at UNT
Rachel Yoder (DMA Grad May 2011) placed 3rd in the ICA Research competition
Sam Ross (MM Grad, May 2010) placed 3rd in the ICA Young Artist Competition
Another 2011 DMA student won the teaching job at A&M Kingsville.
There are many UNT grads in the DC bands.
That's just of the top of my head. A simple google search for "Graduated University of North Texas Clarinet" will bring up as many resumes as you'd like to read.
Like Alex said, the field is not exactly vibrant with professional opportunities. Considering that, I think UNT grads have done quite well! Considering most graduates from any university with a degree in music will be doing a lot of teaching, getting plugged in to the DFW\Denton area is EXCELLENT.
This doesn't mean it's the best school for everyone (no school is), but it's deserving of a strong reputation.
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Author: pierrot
Date: 2011-10-02 04:44
Dear Alex and NBeaty,
Hmm; I would take this a bit more seriously. I could name numerous state universities (and clarinet virtuosos/mentors that) have significantly more diversity in regard to former students' successes; schools of far smaller size that have a serious list of former clarinet students working in the US, Europe and Asia in academia, bands and prominent symphony orchestras as well as in the public schools as director of bands. It matters and is actually a sign of what is truly going on at a school and its clarinet studio. I would much rather recommend students to go to those schools and teachers that have such level of performance in their studio teaching.
I recommend every clarinet applicant considering UNT (or any other school) to ask for a list of at least ten graduating students during the last ten years and what they are doing in the profession. It would not hurt and it is certainly an indication of the quality of the teaching that is going on in a certain studio. To omit to do this would be naive and actually rather dumb.
I believe this is particularly important in the US right now since many schools are ruthless when it comes to recruitment of talent, throwing money left and right, catering to the students by making them "feel good" and showing little or no consideration of what is actually best for the student. If I was a student today I would not put my trust in unsubstantiated attributes. Substance is of essence and results speak for themselves!
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Author: EEBaum
Date: 2011-10-02 07:16
Fair enough.
I wouldn't put too much attention to graduates who go on to be band directors unless you're looking at music education programs, though.
IMHO, NBeaty is kinda helping to prove pierrot's thesis above... teaching at the school you just graduated from doesn't say much (places like to hire their own), and competitions carry little to no weight in my book, nor do band memberships.
Now I'm actually quite interested in hearing what the graduates are doing. Anyone in the past 10 years doing something professionally other than teaching clarinet in a traditional manner or clawing their way toward a seat in a paying ensemble, I'd find especially relevant (which would be good to ask of any school).
-Alex
www.mostlydifferent.com
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Author: clarnibass
Date: 2011-10-02 09:06
>> I recommend every clarinet applicant considering UNT (or any other school) to ask for a list of at least ten graduating students during the last ten years and what they are doing in the profession. It would not hurt and it is certainly an indication of the quality of the teaching that is going on in a certain studio. To omit to do this would be naive and actually rather dumb. <<
I went to a specific school for various reasons.
I don't have any regrets going there. I'm very happy I went there. It wasn't perfect but no school would be. Going there was one of the best decisions I've ever had. I got a lot of things I wanted from it. Even more important, it really helped me in the direction I decided to go, eventhough I wasn't completely sure about it at first. Actually I got a lot of great things from it that I didn't even realize I would get. I thought this could happen, just intuition but nothing specific I knew. That's possibly the most special thing I had there.
I can think of a few clarinet graduates from this school who are now professional musicians. Some play professionally, either in groups or even solos. Some have their own groups. Some play and teach. Some mostly teach. Plus many other things. However from all I can think of that any of them is doing, I can think of almost nothing that I want to do. Just almost, because I have played with some of them, for example, when it was a type of things I was interested in. But mostly they do things I'm not interestd in doing, eventhough I will go to their concerts and will want to listen to them, or I am likely to recommend some of them as teachers, etc. If I judged the school based on what the clarinet graduates I know are doing, I would think it would be a terrible choice school for me.
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Author: NBeaty
Date: 2011-10-02 11:33
"...ask for a list of at least 10 students who graduated in the last 10 years". There are a lot more than 10 in the last ten years that are doing great things in the profession.
"Teaching at the university they just graduated from......schools like to hire their own".
Yes, it is true that schools like to hire their own. However, if you bothered to look you would notice that the person in question had been a full professor at Eastern Michigan as well as a long resume of performance and teaching successes.
"I could name numerous state universities that have more diversity...". I don't think you could. The reason is not because I don't think other state universities have successes, but you don't know enough about UNT to make that call. There are graduates that have landed jobs ranging from orchestral to band to university teaching to working for instrument companies and just about everything else you can think of.
"Competitions have little weight"..."or band memberships". Success when compared to MANY others in the areas of research and performance is important. I would consider membership in a DC area band to be an incredible success. They are getting harder and harder to get and are much more stable than most jobs in the industry. Not to mention they also show a presence of the university in the clarinet community at large.
"I recommend every clarinet applicant considering UNT (or any other school) to ask for a list of at least ten graduating students during the last ten years and what they are doing in the profession. It would not hurt and it is certainly an indication of the quality of the teaching that is going on in a certain studio. To omit to do this would be naive and actually rather dumb."
I agree. As an extension of this idea, I wouldn't bash a school if I didn't know much about it.
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Author: Klarnetisto
Date: 2011-10-09 14:44
I do know that Kimberly Cole Luevano has just arrived as new clarinet faculty at UNT Denton. I knew her at Eastern Michigan University (where i taught organ) and she was a member at my church. She's a terribly nice person and an excellent musician.
Klarnetisto
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The Clarinet Pages
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