 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: janlynn
Date: 2011-09-13 14:45
I have never been able to play real fast. Mainly due to lack of technical ability.
I am playing a piece in January that is not technically difficult but needs to go - well, as fast as I'm able to play it (the end part anyway).
I believe I have good hand position, good breath support, good tonguing. I know the drill of slowly bumping up the metronome to get faster.
But I always seem to get to a point where I just cant go any faster. I have until January to work on this and would really like to figure out how to play faster.
the rhythm pattern is 8th notes - 2 slurred, 2 tongued with the last 2 notes being repeated.
when I get to that point where i cant go faster....am i just stuck? Do I have to settle? what can I do?
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Author: Ken Shaw ★2017
Date: 2011-09-13 15:00
janlynn -
Is your problem finger speed or tongue speed? There are solutions for both, but they're not the same.
Ken Shaw
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Author: janlynn
Date: 2011-09-13 15:11
Hi Ken .......
tongue speed in this case.
I can start out okay - (but still not as fast as I would like) I'm supposed to Accel. at the end but I just get slower and slower and its starts sounding "thuddy" - thick and sluggish.
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Author: kdk
Date: 2011-09-13 15:13
As Ken suggests, you first need to figure out what the problem is. Are you stumbling over a specific spot? Is the articulation causing the problem (can you play the passage work slurred at the needed tempo)?
Karl
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Author: janlynn
Date: 2011-09-13 15:17
kdk - we cross posted. it is not a specific spot. Not sure if its the articulation - since the last 2 notes on each pattern is repeated its hard to play it slurred - unless its with a soft staccato.
would it help to tell you the piece i'm playing?
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Author: johng ★2017
Date: 2011-09-13 15:50
There will be many great ideas about how to approach this . Here is one idea: first play the section leaving out the 2nd tongued note (3 8ths + rest) so you can be sure you are playing evenly. Uneven playing can create tonguing Problems. Then begin adding some of the left out notes .... Different each time until you are playing all of them. I would practice this at full tempo mostly.
John Gibson, Founder of JB Linear Music, www.music4woodwinds.com
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Author: Bob Phillips
Date: 2011-09-13 16:18
Don't rush!
So it's marked 1/4 = 220. Fuggeddaboudit.
Play it perfectly and keep it perfect as you work to speed up. Settle for the speed you have when you perform it and back down a few beats/minute so that you can perform it cleanly.
Few listening to you will be able to match your speed, technique, musicianship, and your perfection will make up for a sloppier player's rush.
Bob Phillips
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Author: EEBaum
Date: 2011-09-13 16:28
If tonguing speed is your problem, try grouping. For 4 sixteenths followed by a downbeat, rather than thinking "tongue tongue tongue tongue tongue", think "1 2 3 4 1". Focus only on the destination, not on how you're getting there.
-Alex
www.mostlydifferent.com
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Author: Arnoldstang
Date: 2011-09-13 17:35
It might be good to see the passage. Try double tonguing the repeated notes. TK
Freelance woodwind performer
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Author: janlynn
Date: 2011-09-13 17:56
thank you for the ideas everyone.
the piece i will be playing is Scene and Air from Luisa di Montfort by Michael Bergson, Op.82. its in the book Concert and Contest Collection. Rubank, by Voxman.
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Author: Ken Shaw ★2017
Date: 2011-09-14 19:46
janlynn -
There are many things that get in the way of tonguing fast:
Play low C, put the bell on or between your knees and rest your right hand on your abdomen just below the ribs. Then tongue staccato notes. If you feel your abdomen moving, you're using big, slow muscles to give a puff of air to each note. You need to keep a steady air stream that's the same all the time.
Next do the same thing but rest your hand against your cheek just in front of your ear. If your jaw is moving, you need to stop that. See http://test.woodwind.org/clarinet/BBoard/read.html?f=1&i=160954&t=160907 for exercises.
Look in a mirror. If your throat is moving, you need to stop that. Concentrate on keeping a steady air stream that begins at your hips and rises uninterrupted to run through your lips into and through your clarinet. Keep your vocal cords out of the way. The throat position is the same as if you were yawning.
Is the tip of your tongue tucked down behind your lower teeth? If so, you are "anchor tonguing," in which you move your entire tongue rather than just the tip. You need to move the tip of your tongue up so that it contacts the reed at or just back of the tip. For much more, search on "anchor tonguing."
You may be "attacking" your staccatos with a heavy tongue stroke. You need to move only the tip of your tongue. Play a note and stop the reed vibration with just the tip of your tongue, maintaining full breath pressure. Then move your tongue tip away from the reed, letting the tone start again without any extra transient noise. Think of "releasing" the tone, which begins by itself, rather than "attacking" it.
A good exercise for learning small, light tongue movements is one from Robert Lowrey, which I've mentioned several times. See http://test.woodwind.org/clarinet/BBoard/read.html?f=1&i=348595&t=348543.
None of this is easy. It takes time to re-program your muscles. But it can be done if you give it your best time -- the first 10 or 15 minutes of each practice session.
Finally, your problem could be something completely different. You really need to take lessons from an experienced teacher who can see what you're doing and help you improve.
Ken Shaw
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Author: Arnoldstang
Date: 2011-09-14 21:48
It is interesting that Ken refers to the syllable ' la' . There might be some connection here to doodle tonguing on the trombone. It is used mostly in a jazz context for fast smooth playing. I believe the 'doodle' is not done literally. It is more like 'la' 'dul' 'la' 'dul'.
Freelance woodwind performer
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Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2011-09-14 23:29
I'd just suggest trying double tonguing which is 'tee-kee, tee-kee, tee-kee," etc. The KEE sound is a spot further back on the tongue engaging the roof of the mouth to interrupt the flow of air. The "kees" will never sound exactly like the "tees," but the object of the game is to get them as close as possible.
........................Paul Aviles
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Author: janlynn
Date: 2011-09-15 13:16
Hey everyone ....a big thank you!!
Ken, I have a teacher. She is a wonderful person and I like her a whole lot, and shes a pretty good teacher, but....
when I asked her about this speed problem, she just told me to practice only a few measures at a time. she said if a sprinter wanted to get faster, they wouldnt be running a marathon. it makes sense - but what if you have to sprint fast for a long time? then what?
I wish I had someone I could go to who could evaluate things things you suggested as I feel I am doing things correctly and so dont know where the 'real' problem lies.
do you think a real good teacher would do a supplemental lesson or two? or is that like an insult that you want their help but dont want to keep taking lessons from them?
Paul - I have never really tried double tonguing. I think I should at least see how it feels.
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Author: clarinetguy ★2017
Date: 2011-09-15 15:02
I've never played this solo, but I pulled out my copy of the book and looked at it. I assume you're referring to the coda section on the third page.
I can understand your frustration. Everyone is different; some find it easy to tongue rapidly, while others constantly work at it but just can't get any speed.
There are a couple other possibilities. David Pino, in his book, The Clarinet and Clarinet Playing, describes how he too had trouble tonguing rapidly. He came up with a solution, which he calls "on-the-reed double tonguing." Here's a link: http://www.woodwind.org/clarinet/Study/DoubleTonguing.html
Michele Gingras demonstrates something very similar.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6fi4G1JwvKE
There is another solution, and I came up with it after reading an article by Roger McKinney of the College of New Jersey.
http://www.tcnj.edu/~mckinney/tonguing.htm
I've written about this before, but I'm happy to repeat it. Unlike most others,
McKinney suggests tonguing with the "n" or "nu" syllable. You can try this and see if it speeds things up. Here's a variation, and I've had a lot of success with it: with a lot of breath support, move your tongue very slightly from side to side as you tongue with the "n" or "nu" syllable. In other words, the first stroke is slightly on the left side of the reed tip, the next one is slightly on the right, etc. This really isn't difficult to do, and you might be surprised at just how fast you can suddenly tongue.
Good luck!
Post Edited (2011-09-15 15:04)
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Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2011-09-16 11:58
Ok, how many of you actually use this David Pino method of double tonguing? Not only did I fall asleep in the middle of the description but I can tell you there are certainly NO BRASS players who'd be able to use this method.
Why must we (clarinet players) always make things harder????
....................Paul Aviles
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Author: clarinetguy ★2017
Date: 2011-09-16 15:03
Paul, to answer your question, I sometimes use it. I modify the syllables slightly, but it isn't hard to do. I think it's easier to do than describe. Your experiences might be different from mine, but I don't think this approach makes things harder.
You're right--it isn't appropriate for brass players, but it is a great alternative for reed players.
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Author: Ken Shaw ★2017
Date: 2011-09-16 19:02
I've tried several times to learn T-K and TEE-KEE double tonguing, with absolutely no success. I can start the tone with the KEE, but if I tongue TEE and then KEE, the pressurized air in my mouth keeps the tone going, so that the KEE doesn't register at all.
Perhaps the secret is keeping your tongue close to the roof of your mouth, but somehow I've never been able to do that.
I've perfected Pino's TUTTLE http://www.woodwind.org/clarinet/Study/DoubleTonguing.html on the recorder (on which I think DIDDLE, following Quantz's instructions) but haven't been able to transfer it to clarinet. Like TEE-KEE, the air in my mouth keeps the tone going and makes the DLE part inaudible.
Neil Leupold has some good instructions http://www.woodwind.org/clarinet/Study/TongueFaster.html.
Every bassoonist learns to double tongue, because the fast solo from the finale of the Beethoven 4th is on every audition list. Arthur Weisberg, in The Art of Wind Playing http://www.amazon.com/ART-WIND-PLAYING-Arthur-Weisberg/dp/1574630849/ref=sr_1_2?ie=UTF8&qid=1316198919&sr=8-2, admits that it's not perfect on any reed instrument.
It's possible to tongue with a TUH just back of the tip of your tongue, bounce off the reed and pull your tongue back quickly so that the tip flips past the tip of the reed with a DUH. James Collis perfected this and called it the "rebound" staccato." I know one of his students, who can effortlessly pump out staccato 16ths off the top end of the metronome. I find it easy to do a single rebound. The difficult part is to get your tongue back in position to do the next one and even them out.
Keith Stein is said to have moved his tongue from side to side, touching the tip to the reed in both directions. I've never been able to do that.
Ken Shaw
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Author: Alexis
Date: 2011-09-16 20:04
Hi,
I don't really know how fast we're talking here, but I notice you describe putting the metronome up as a drill. I used to do this a lot, but then realised it was a drill, and I still couldn't make things perfect.
I remember seeing a James Campbell masterclass where he said that speed was never really the issue, it was more do to with co-ordination. He was talking about finger movement and the exercise involved playing the passage at a very very slow tempo, making every interval perfect. Then taking it a little faster, but never losing sight of that perfection. I have found this works for any passage, slurred or articulated.
The trick is then, play it perfectly at every tempo, starting from the slowest. We're talking absolutely perfect. Fingers moving very clearly from one note to the next, each note tongued with an identical movement. And ideally a small movement.
Maybe you just have to increase your tonguing speed. But it seems more likely from your description that you just need to make the action smaller and more consistent.
As for the accelerando, well, you could aim to play the whole thing at your peak tempo then start slower (with peak tempo the end point). Then at least it shouldn't drag at the end. Or, you could throw away your metronome (my preferred option actually) and practice the accelerando at a very slow tempo, again looking for perfection in every interval and articulation.
Maybe that's helpful?
Alex
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Author: Marie from New York
Date: 2011-09-17 01:14
Fast tonguing also becomes much easier when you use a lot of breath support. I read a great description, which I frequently tell my students: Imagine a leafy branch gently bouncing up and down as it touches a gently flowing stream. If the stream gets stronger and faster, the branch automatically bounces faster and faster. This idea has helped me a lot and seems to help my students. The rebounding action of the tongue is greatly assisted by a strong flow of air.
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