 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: Johnny Galaga
Date: 2011-09-11 21:03
Say you're starting from scratch with no tools or experience. What would you need to learn to do this yourself? What tools do you need and how much do they cost? Is it best to practice on a clunker first?
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Author: Bob Bernardo
Date: 2011-09-11 21:46
See if you can work with a local repairman. You do the work, he checks and perhaps adjusts the horn, as well as giving you key advice.
If I were you I wouldn't do this without any training. Sealing new pads, adjusting the key height, cleaning the horn with proper oils, adjusting springs and remembering which keys to put on first is something you shouldn't do yourself. Sadly, chances are about 100 percent of not working the way the horn should play at its best. If cork is missing or needed on the joints, again there is a special glue and the right thickness of the replacement cork.
Added to this you really need a few special tools to help set the springs and the pads.
After working with a repairman about 5 to 10 times, you should be able to do a decent job repairing a horn.
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2011-09-11 21:46
You're best training under the guidance of someone who can show you in great detail what you should be doing. Probably best learning directly from a respected tech rather than books or advice as hands-on experience is far better.
Definitely get a good quality plastic clarinet (eg. Bundy, B12, Vito, Yamaha, etc) to start on, or an intermediate woodern version as you can learn how to fill in defects and practice crack repair on them. Wooden instruments are better in that they won't melt!
You can get specialist woodwind tools and essential repair supplies from companies like MusicMedic.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: klook
Date: 2011-09-11 22:05
The 1st clarinet I overhauled came out okay. I didn't have many tools but I took my time, had a good book (the Reg Thorpe book), mechanical aptitude is good too
I've worked on over 60 clarinets at this point and have picked up lots and lots and lots of tools.
Every clarinet I do gets better.
But if you only want to do one clarinet, it wouldn't make much sense unless you knew someone who knew what they were doing or at least had tools you could use.
I know from personal experience that you can learn on your own but it takes longer and requires alot more work with research etc. I would have readily taken an apprenticeship from someone but NOONE does that anymore because there are repair schools now, which are not an option for me as I have a family.
So, you could probably make it happen okay if you REALLY wanted to, it sure is a learning experience, but man, I'd hate to compare that 1st clarinet I did to the ones I'm working on now, it would be night and day!
mark
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Author: kdk
Date: 2011-09-12 03:12
I think it would be best to take on smaller jobs at first and leave the overhaul to someone more experienced until you've cut your teeth on individual tasks like replacing a single pad, replacing or adjusting the tension on a needle spring, adjusting the action on the lever keys on the bottom joint, etc... An old clunker isn't a bad thing to start with, but eventually you'll need the feedback you can only get from fixing a problem that's keeping a decent instrument from playing well and noting the resulting difference.
Karl
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Author: SteveG_CT
Date: 2011-09-12 04:09
kdk wrote:
> I think it would be best to take on smaller jobs at first and
> leave the overhaul to someone more experienced until you've cut
> your teeth on individual tasks like replacing a single pad,
> replacing or adjusting the tension on a needle spring,
> adjusting the action on the lever keys on the bottom joint,
> etc... An old clunker isn't a bad thing to start with, but
> eventually you'll need the feedback you can only get from
> fixing a problem that's keeping a decent instrument from
> playing well and noting the resulting difference.
>
> Karl
I agree with Karl. I've been tinkering with clarinets for a few years and while I feel that I'm relatively proficient with small repairs I don't think I'd be confident about doing a complete overhaul. When I have an instrument that I feel is worthy of a full overhaul I still send them out to a professional.
One think you might consider is getting an inexpensive clarinet that is in good playing condition and experiment with "breaking" it (i.e. change pad heights, spring tensions, etc) to see how these kinds of changes effect the playability.
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Author: TJTG
Date: 2011-09-12 04:33
I'm in the middle of my first overhaul. I've oiled the instrument. I've cleaned the keys and tone holes, re-corked the keywork, and am about to start on the padding portion. I've affixed my own pads in the past. But working every new pad on will certainly be an adventure. Thankfully no keys need swedgeing.
As of yet, nothing as seemed that daunting. I've enjoyed working on it and found the whole experience relaxing.
My only issue is that I have come across a couple tone holes that are chipped along that ridge upon which they seal. Its nothing too big, but may prove a problem if the Valentino pads don't want to give just that tiny bit to allow a clean seal.
This is my highschool clarinet by the way. A Normandy 4. He served me well. :')
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Author: Tony F
Date: 2011-09-12 04:38
It depends a great deal on your mechanical aptitude, mechanical skills and patience. If you have good aptitude then most of what you need to do will be fairly straightforward, but without patience you'll find it tricky. Basic tools are a set of instrument scrwdrivers, several types of blade (I find an Exacto set and some boxcutter blades work well), several pairs of small pliers/endcutters/sidecutters, swedging pliers, spring hooks, small pin punches and a small hammer, a lead block for spring removal, silver solder and a small gas torch, small files, small diamond lap tool, small rule and micrometer, tweezers, cotton buds, toothpicks, feeler guages, pad slick, glue gun, pad glue (shellac), cork glue (Evostick). There are other tools, but these will get most things done. All of these, plus pads, cork and wet & dry paper fit in a fishing tackle box. Make notes on disassembly and be methodical.
Tony F.
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Author: clarnibass
Date: 2011-09-12 09:52
It's nice to be able to learn from someone in person. It doesn't necessarily have to be someone great. Obviously that would be better, but if you have some mechanical talent and sense you can understand even from someone showing you how to do it badly...
IMO the most important thing for a repairer is the ability and trying to understand the logical and technical reasons for whatever it is that is done. Don't just "follow a recipe" because someone told you, or it was written in a book. Thank for yourself about WHY. It's a bit like music in that you can simply follow something and happen to get a good concert, or you can understand why you are choosing to do something with deeper reasons behind it. It's less abstract (not abstract at all really) but not entirely different.
My first overhaul was on my Vito Eb sopranino clarinet with almost no tools at all. Not even close to the list Tony F wrote above. I have some screwdrivers and a small pair of pliers to get the rod screws out. I didn't even have a spring hook. I used the stove for a flame and it took forever... but eventually turned out ok. A lot wasn't fixed but it played. It was mainly for parctice. I haven't used it much since then but a local player borrowed it for a pro orchestra concert as they had no other option for an Eb and it was fine. Point is if you take your (very long) time, even first time can be ok. Obviously with a lot more practice and tools it's possible to do better.
Klook/Mark is lucky to have repair schools in their area. There are none in my country. There is no one here who would take an apprentice either, though on a repairers' forum some in the USA mention they do have an apprentice, sometimes even more than one.
So I had to learn everything from the internet, books and practicing. You really don't need so many tools at the beginning. You can do a lot with very little. I mean, my dental micromotor is more important to me than any swedging pliers and I wouldn't recommend a beginner go buy one. Get more tools while you learn what you need.
I recommend getting a book and right now the best IMO is the Reg Thorp book The Complete Woodwind Repair Manual (if I remember correct). You can get it from NAPBIRT and a few other sources (don't be comfused by another book by him with a slightly different name). Even this very thick book is just the beginning.
>> Thankfully no keys need swedgeing. <<
How lucky! I don't think I've ever seen a clarinet needing a repad but no swedging. Even most clarinets in much better condition usually don't have completely tight keys.
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2011-09-12 10:14
The old Selmer CT I just overhauled had point screws that weren't fully countersunk into the pillars and there was end play in the keys mounted this way, so that was easy enough to do once I made up a countersink. None of the keys mounted on rod screws needed swaging at all which was good.
I think having the aptitude for this kind of work is extremely beneficial, as well as an eye for detail and definitely a generous helping of pride in your work.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: CarlT
Date: 2011-09-12 13:57
Maybe it's just because I, myself, have become interested in "some" DIY clarinet repair, but I seem to see more and more players getting interested in this. As I say, I certainly won't be, at age 73, going into the business, but I'm a tinkerer anyhow, so I will get me an old Bundy and at least learn a bit more about the mechanics of the beast.
CarlT
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Author: David Spiegelthal ★2017
Date: 2011-09-12 14:23
It's sort of like learning to PLAY the clarinet. Anyone can do a half-assed job after a few months, but it takes years to learn to do it really well (with all the nuances and subtleties).
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Author: Johnny Galaga
Date: 2011-09-12 17:07
The problem is that it's hard to find a good repair person who will take the time to do it well. But then they charge you an arm and a leg and you have to ship your horn away for weeks on end and worry about the shipping insurance. What I'm looking at here is the long term. In a lifetime of playing, I suspect that it might save time and money in the long run to bite the bullet and learn it myself. The time and expense of going through this every year or two is just cumbersome.
This will be a long a difficult task, but at least I can go back and make adjustments myself instead of having to send it back. The problem is that repair techs often work for music stores which is a business and they have to make a profit. I guess that means they have to work quickly so that the rich boss behind the desk can make the moneys $$$. Therefore your instrument doesn't get the undivided attention it really needs.
A recent overhaul I had done at a local music shop cost $230 and took four weeks! They explained to me that they do overhauls in stages with large batches of instruments from schools. My instrument is apparently lumped into a batch of other instruments and it's a long time to wait. The job they did was OKAY, but there's a few things I'd like to adjust further. They didn't even clean the tarnish off the joint rings or add the gold coloring to the Buffet logo/seal on the barrel. Some of the thicknesses of the cork under certain keys wasn't right. For example, the forked B/F# key doesn't open up as much as it should. The instrument just didn't have that "brand new" look and feel like it's supposed to.
Stuff like this is why I'm really considering trying to learn it myself. I'm not looking to go into business or anything, but I want to learn how to really tweak the horn myself and make it good!
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Author: SteveG_CT
Date: 2011-09-12 17:27
Realistically I think your expectations from a $230 overhaul might have been a bit high. A lower cost overhaul like this is what I like to call a "functional overhaul", meaning that the instrument is put back into good playing condition but no cosmetic restoration is done. A full restoration including key polishing, logo re-gilding, and wood refinishing will usually cost 2-3 times as much since a lot more work is involved.
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Author: kdk
Date: 2011-09-12 17:54
Contact one or two of the clarinet players in nearby professional orchestras - players in even part time union orchestras are knowledgeable about who is around and where the best work is available in your area. And none of those players is going to leave his/her instrument at a shop for weeks or even days waiting for the shop to do some batch process. Generally, if you make the appointment enough in advance for a repair person to schedule you, you can wait for the instrument and even watch while the work is done. Depending on the tech, you can get some interesting conversation and some good maintenance and repair advice into the bargain.
If you're from the Tampa area as indicated in your message header, maybe someone here can give you a start.
Karl
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2011-09-12 18:01
If you can get a 'clunker', then learning the sequence of key removal/refitting can be practiced on that to begin with (and cleaning the joints and keys while the keys are off, then oiling the keys as they go back on), then pad and key cork installation, regulation, replacing tenon corks, replacing springs and finally a complete stripdown and overhaul.
Make a board with holes drilled into it to keep the rod screws in their relative positions and use a wine cork (or smaler holes in the screw board) for sticking needle springs in. Point screws can either remain screwed in the pillars or stuck in their relative positions in a wine cork (along with the springs).
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: gwie
Date: 2011-09-12 20:51
I've tinkered a lot, especially in using tools/supplies from Valentino and Feree's to keep my crew of K-12 students with working instruments.
After getting my first set of R-13's back from the Brannens some years ago, and then watching Jeff P. at Yamaha work on my recent set of CSG clarinets though, I see that professionals in the field have a degree of expertise that is far beyond my limited efforts, and I am very appreciative of the work that they do.
I think it's great for all of us to learn the basics because emergencies happen, and in many cases "functional" fixes are important to handle. Get a clunker, some basic repair supplies (I like the Music Medic one), and go for it. You'll find in some cases you can even improve on the original operation of something that has degraded significantly!
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Author: Johnny Galaga
Date: 2011-09-12 22:51
Indeed I'm in Tampa and have an old "cluncker" to tinker with. The music shop said they couldn't make an appointment because they needed the instrument for the whole 4 weeks while it goes through all the "stages".
I guess my issue here is that I just can't see spending $500 every year or so for a good overhaul. Dang, you could just buy a new instrument every 5 years for that kind of money! I want to start learning it myself so I don't have to wait for weeks on end, worry about shipping insurance, and paying out the nose. There's gotta be a better way.
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2011-09-12 23:37
You won't need your clarinet fully overhauled every year - that's only done when the majority of the pads are shot and key corks have fallen off.
If you're playing a lot, then an overhaul is usually done every five years or so and that's a complete rebuild (ie. stripping it right down and doing absolutely everything from the ground up) which should end up with the clarinet being better than when it was new. You won't have your clarinet overhauled every year as that will be pretty expensive.
Also if you're playing a lot, a service is usually best carried out yearly and that involves replacing anything that needs replacing (such as defective pads, corks and springs) and also a good clean-up of the body joints, polishing the keys (if they're silver plated) oiling the mechanism and regulating is carried out so it plays as good as new. That shouldn't take a month to do as a service can usually be done well within a week at the most once the instrument is on the workbench.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: clarnibass
Date: 2011-09-13 05:08
>> then they charge you an arm and a leg and you have to ship your horn away for weeks on end <<
>> The problem is that repair techs often work for music stores which is a business and they have to make a profit. I guess that means they have to work quickly so that the rich boss behind the desk can make the moneys $$$ <<
>> A recent overhaul I had done at a local music shop cost $230 and took four weeks! They explained to me that they do overhauls in stages with large batches of instruments from schools. <<
Some repairers work by themselves, often from their home, so none of this is an issue. You just come (schedule), they check the clarinet, then take some time (sometimes on the spot) to repair it. Unless it's an emergency (e.g. a pad fell and you have a concert today), to avoid having someone take a long time, it's common to schedule to a time they can start the repair instead of having the instrument sit for a while before that. Not all places do it in batches like that.
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Author: DNBoone
Date: 2011-09-13 12:43
I hate to say it but I've used pretty much all the repair guys in Tampa. I won't even let them look at my instruments anymore. Even the best one makes instruments worse than when they arrived. I send mine off to get repaired or do it when I am on a trip somewhere.
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Author: DNBoone
Date: 2011-09-13 20:14
Ive used John Butler in Sugarland Texas with fantastic results.
There is a guy in Fort Lauderdale that my professor has recently began recommending but I have not used him. I will ask tonight and let you know who it is.
Post Edited (2011-09-13 20:15)
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Author: Johnny Galaga
Date: 2011-09-15 22:44
DNBoone,
Have you ever heard of someone named Steve Bockus in Wesley Chapel? He used to have his repair shop down on East Fowler Ave, but he's since moved. What you think about his work?
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Author: ned
Date: 2011-09-16 01:07
Johnny, judging by the replies to the recent ''Making your own cork pads'' postings, I'd say it's pretty difficult and time consuming.
If you like mucking about with pliers and screwdrivers then go for it. If you want to just play, then pay someone to do the mucking around.
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Author: Lelia Loban ★2017
Date: 2011-09-16 13:07
There are some excellent professional repair technicians in the Washington, D.C. area and imho they're worth every cent they charge. But some of us get born with the genetic predisposition to become Tinkeraholics and once we get our hands on some tools, we just can't keep our paws off of stuff.
My name is Lelia and I am a Tinkeraholic.
I blame my parents. They used tools right in front of their impressionable children. They never tried to keep underaged children out of the workshop. They let us use their tools. They even gave us our own tools!
If you're a Tinkeraholic, nothing is going to stop you from monkeying around with your clarinet. Despite all the good advice, you probably won't be able to interpret the learning curve as "difficult." Nope, you'll rationalize it as "a challenge." You'll find it -- horrors! -- interesting! And you'll get hooked for life.
Voice of experience. You've been warned!
Lelia
http://www.scoreexchange.com/profiles/Lelia_Loban
To hear the audio, click on the "Scorch Plug-In" box above the score.
Post Edited (2011-09-16 13:08)
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Author: tictactux ★2017
Date: 2011-09-16 13:47
> My name is Lelia and I am a Tinkeraholic.
My name is Ben and I am a Tinkering Addict as well. I too blame my parents, as they always assigned the "glueing" or "soldering", iow "tinkering" jobs to me. They more or less forced me into Tinkerism.
Now that it's out I feel reliev---OH, A LOOSE SCREW! Must...fix...it...immediately...
--
Ben
Post Edited (2011-09-16 13:48)
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Author: Mark Charette
Date: 2011-09-16 14:18
Lelia Loban wrote:
>
> My name is Lelia and I am a Tinkeraholic.
>
My name is Mark and I am a Tinkeraholic
I blame my father and grandfather. They gave me old watches that didn't work, radios that didn't work, telvisions that didn't work, washing machines that didn't work, and let me walk the untrodden Tinkeraholic paths burdened with tools to try and fix those broken artifacts.
My grandfather was a carpenter and demonstrated that sharp tools cut you less often than they cut wood - but misuse of the sharpened tools led to more serious consequences. I should have listened better, for for both sharpened and unsharpened tools come in many disguises ...
My descending spiral led to tinkering with hydraulic and electronic control systems on propulsion turbines, nuclear reactors, and other mechanical and electrical contrivances. I thought my tinkering to be endless, but ...
From there I fell onto the Greatest Evil know to all Tinkerers, computer software, a tool that can be shaped to almost any purpose and requires in turn endless caring and feeding ... and is sharp in places where least expected.
I am a Tinkeraholic.
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