 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: davetrow
Date: 2011-09-05 05:19
I play a Buffet 1193 RC bass clarinet (dating from the early 90s), which belongs to the community college where I am a community player in the wind ensemble. It sound wonderful and is a joy to play, with wonderfully-even intonation--except for the low concert B (C#), which is 30 cents sharp, way beyond my ability to adjust.
Short of major surgery on the beast (the community college, being in California, is broke, and I can't afford a big donation), can anyone suggest what might be done?
Dave Trowbridge
Boulder Creek, CA
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Author: JamesOrlandoGarcia
Date: 2011-09-05 06:43
Is the corresponding G# 30 cents sharp as well?
You can apply electrical tape to the c sharp tone hole on the upper side of the tone hole. This will lower the pitch. I've had to do this on my Bb clarinet for the G/D and F/C.
Remember that altering the pitch of that C sharp tone hole will also change the G sharp that is the 12th above and the high F in the altissimo.
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2011-09-05 09:22
As well as tape, you can apply wax to the upper side of the tonehole and this can be added and removed easily to tune it.
Remove just the C#/G# pad cup (you may have to remove other keys to get to it) and apply melted wax with a smooth metal rod until the note is well tuned. The instrument can be left assembled while doing this so progress can be checked.
Then as mentined above, check the upper register G# and the altissimo F to be sure they're not adversly affected.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: Ken Shaw ★2017
Date: 2011-09-05 12:57
The 1193 has an articulated C#/G# that operates with opposing springs. That is, the left little finger touch for C#/G# doesn't open the hole directly (as on the soprano clarinet), but instead raises a tab that holds the separate pad cup closed, and the cup opens with a separate spring.
The pad cup should have a cork bumper that controls how far it opens. Yours has almost certainly fallen off, particularly if (as James says) the clarion G# is also high.
Before you adjust the tone hole, you or a repair tech should replace the cork bumper, or use a thicker one to decrease the distance that the pad opens.
Ken Shaw
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Author: clarnibass
Date: 2011-09-05 13:24
As others said, first also check the intonation of the G# with the same fingering. Then check intonation, tone and response of both C# and G# by gradually lowering the C#/G# key with your right hand (or have someone else do it) while you arep laying the notes. It could be something as simple as the key opening too much, possibly because a cork fell as Ken said, or another reason. If that's the case (regardless of whether it was a cork that fell or not) I wouldn't put a thick(er) cork and instead put a good thickness (not to thick for a linkage like this) cork and adjust the key opening by the cork of the lever and/or bending (this won't damage).
Only after checking and if you find the problem isn't the key not opening enough I'll look into other possible issues.
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Author: Ed Palanker
Date: 2011-09-05 16:08
Everyone is assuming it's the low C#-G# key or are you actually talking about the lowest C# on a low C instrument? If it's the C#-G# key I agree that lowering the key will help using a piece of cork or even a few layers of tape for the time being or taking off the keys and putting a few layers of tape on the top half of the tone hole, only the top half, not the entire hole. Good luck, ESP eddiesclarinet.com
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Author: davetrow
Date: 2011-09-06 05:05
Thanks for pointing that out, Ed. I didn't make it sufficiently clear that it's the lowest C# on a low-C instrument, played with the upper thumb key. It's the only note on the instrument that is wacky; otherwise, the intonation is wonderfully even.
Separate matter: as far as I can tell, those low fingerings (low C through Eb) generally can't be used a 12th up, right? Or is there some trick involved?
Dave Trowbridge
Boulder Creek, CA
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2011-09-06 06:12
If it's the low C#, that issues from the bell tonehole (low C issues from the bell mouth or the open bell vent depending on the age), so remove the bell key and use crescents to flatten the low C#. http://www.musicmedic.com/info/articles/num_24.html
You can get the low C, C# and D to overblow a 12th (which will sound as open G, throat G# and A) by opening one of the top joint side or throat keys or lifting the thumb or LH1 - you'll have to experiment to find the right key that makes the low notes overblow best as the speaker vents are set too high up the top joint for them.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
Post Edited (2011-09-06 06:13)
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Author: clarnibass
Date: 2011-09-06 06:14
If it's the lowest C# first check the same thing, the opening of the vent key. For the C# this is the bell key that is open (the key, not the open hole without a key, if you have that). Have someone gradually close it while playing the note or maybe put paper as a temporary bumper to make it vent less if you don't have someone to help you. The latter will be better to see how much is needed after etc. Check if you can reduce the opening for better tuning without compromising response and tone.
By the way by "upper" I assume you mean towards the top of the instrument. At least on 1193 bass clarinets that I've seen the top thumb key is a D, not a C#. Is yours an earlier version? I've seen some earlier versions but don't remember. Maybe it's the model with neck water key?
Post Edited (2011-09-06 10:45)
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Author: davetrow
Date: 2011-09-06 18:16
Clarnibass, yes, it is the older model with the neck water key. There is no tonehole on the bell; all are on the body.
Dave Trowbridge
Boulder Creek, CA
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Author: Ed Palanker
Date: 2011-09-06 23:00
True, you can't play 12ths with those lowest notes. Let me first say that I've never played a bass that had those lowest notes very well in tune. Of course, there are many I haven't tried. Then let me say this from experience, those notes are very, very forgiving. When I use a tuner my instrument is very imperfect down there, one note high, one note low. I suggest you try lowering the pad key a bit and see how that works, if not than glue a piece of cork on the top half of the hole, I don't know any other solution that won't change the other notes as well. It is easier to lower the pitch than it is to raise the pitch, especially down there. I had to have one of the holes filed out to raise the pitch, it only helped a bit but in all the years I've been playing professionally I've never had a problem, at least no conductor ever mentioned it, and that's what it's all about. :-) ESP
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Author: oliver sudden
Date: 2011-09-07 05:06
I have the same model and the same situation. As far as I remember the newer Buffets also have a very high bottom C#. It's never been a problem in the contexts I've had to play it although if I had to play Shostakovich 7 often I'd probably switch to a new Selmer
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Author: nosqueaks
Date: 2011-09-07 05:30
I play on a current Buffet 1193, the low notes are dead on except for low E which is 5-10 cents flat. That makes the middle B a 12th above very manageable and only very slightly sharp.
As for the prior models that have the very sharp low C# issue, a few colleagues of mine have had a metal tube placed in the tonehole that protrudes into the bore which lowers the pitch considerably.
I will try to determine if this fix works for the spitvalve/neck model and which tonehole the tube is placed.
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Author: davetrow
Date: 2011-09-07 05:45
Ed, thanks for sharing your experience. With this particular instrument, the sharp C# really stands out because the other low notes are pretty much right on. Funny thing was, it was the band director who called my attention to it! (He puts the bassoons and bass clarinet right up front, just behind the oboes, so I'm sort of exposed.) BTW, now that I review what's been done with the beast, I believe my tech already tried the cork, but as you say, other things started changing too much.
Nosqueaks, I'd be very interested in hearing more about that solution. It appears that there are two holes that close to produce that note; we put the cork on top of the lower one.
I love this bboard!
Dave Trowbridge
Boulder Creek, CA
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Author: LarryBocaner ★2017
Date: 2011-09-07 14:34
It's inexcusable that Buffet released an instrument (at that price!) with such a tuning anomaly. In as much as the tone hole(s) for the low C# doesn't affect any of the other notes on the instrument, reducing the size of the next lower tone hole with tape (we used to use cloth Mystic Tape) starting at the top end of the hole, should provide a pretty easy fix. Just be careful that the tape doesn't protrude into the bore or touch the pad. I've fixed this problem on a number of Buffets, and especially Selmers for students and friends. I build up the tone-hole wall with smallish pieces of tape: about 1/8" by 1/2" forming a crescent that effectively moves the "center"of the tone-hole "south."
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Author: nosqueaks
Date: 2011-10-06 07:12
Dave, I spoke with a WW technician friend who has worked on the low C# tuning problem on the older Buffet low C bass. He said his fix is for the model that has all the tone holes on the lower joint, with no key on the bell. He machined a metal tube that fit into the Low C tonehole (last one on the body) that extended into the bore. I assume the tube only blocks some of the airflow thru the bottom bore only on the low C.
He said it brought down the pitch on the low C# a good bit, but was not successful on 100% of the basses he used this technique on-
Good Luck!
Greg
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