 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: bombus
Date: 2011-09-01 01:17
I'm looking to buy a new mouthpiece, but I have a question. I always play ridiculously sharp, doesn't matter which of my instruments (E11 and R13) or mouthpieces (a B45 and a Selmer HS*) I play on. Is it just that I haven't picked the right mouthpiece for my instrument yet or is it just that both of my clarinets are that sharp?
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Author: dtiegs
Date: 2011-09-01 01:37
Vandoren M30 profile 88 made me 20cents flat!. and it took me a while to adjust... 2 months... but the tone was worth it!
DTiegs
Post Edited (2011-09-01 01:38)
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Author: Ursa
Date: 2011-09-01 01:38
Various mouthpieces do have different tuning characteristics. Some are built to the North American A=440 standard, others to the European A=442 standard, while still others were built to other tuning standards.
I also have a Selmer HS* that plays very sharp on some of my clarinets, and Vandorens can be obtained in both A=440 and 442 tuning. It's entirely possible both of your mouthpieces are built to play sharp.
I suggest obtaining or borrowing another make of mouthpiece(s)--see how your Buffets tune with something else.
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Author: Bobby McClellan
Date: 2011-09-01 03:18
When I was using a Pyne mouthpiece it was spot on tuning on my Yamaha 34, when I put it on my Buffet it mad the horn significantly flat.
That was sealed the deal of no one mouthpiece is perfect for all horns for me.
My buffets are paired with a grabner now and the Pne stays with the Yamaha.
Bobby M. McClellan
Flowood, MS
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Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2011-09-01 13:49
Just a note about pitch.
The issue of the original post would be best addressed with proper use of embouchure pressure (using ALL muscles AROUND the mouthpiece to include cheek muscles) and a concerted effort to refrain from using the jaw muscles.
In other words............. NO BITING !!!!!!!
Approaching pitch from this standpoint renders MORE flexibility in pitch in the long run AND avoids dependence on FLAT mouthpieces that can (and often do) cause more internal pitch problems (overly wide twelfths; flat throat notes etc.) than the 'quick fix' is worth.
.............Paul Aviles
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Author: Lelia Loban ★2017
Date: 2011-09-01 14:09
But the equipment does matter. If you take several Bb clarinets (or clarinets of any other pitch, but all the same pitch) of various ages, fully assemble them without mouthpieces and line them up in a straight row, there can be differences in the overall lengths, even if all of the clarinets in the row were meant for, say, the American market and all are of an age where they'd be tuned to concert A=440. The reason is that length isn't the only consideration. It's the biggest one, but diameter of the bore affects pitch as well. (Ask anybody who tunes pipe organs....)
There are also differences in the lengths of each section relative to the lengths of the other sections. The length of the barrel varies relative to the part of the upper key section above the highest keys. The exact placement of the center joint varies, too, as well as the relative lengths of the upper part of the bell to the lower section below the lowest keys.
The length and diameter of the mouthpiece play a part in that design scheme. I've mentioned here before that I've got some mouthpieces that play well on some clarinets but foul up the intonation on other clarinets. Oddly enough, one of my worst combinations is my first clarinet, a 1957 wooden Conn Director, with its original 1957 Conn mouthpiece. Throat tones are all over the place and 12ths are ridiculously wide. As a child, I spent a lot of my practice time learning to compensate, to the point where, to this day, I can mess up my own intonation on a much better Buffet R-13 by absent-mindedly using the embouchure tweaks I needed back then on the Conn. But, put a modern Hite Premiere mouthpiece on that Conn and all of a sudden it's much better in tune with itself, even though the mouthpiece is half a century younger than the clarinet!
Lelia
http://www.scoreexchange.com/profiles/Lelia_Loban
To hear the audio, click on the "Scorch Plug-In" box above the score.
Post Edited (2011-09-01 14:10)
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Author: TJTG
Date: 2011-09-01 14:16
IMHO I would agree with Paul though. I used to tune nearly 20 cents sharp. Its been corrected with correct embouchure. The best way to test is to have a teacher play on your instrument and see if they're sharp too.
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Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2011-09-01 14:44
Ok, the above was the short version of my rant on FLAT mouthpieces.
FLAT mouthpieces are those that started to be marketed as those with a 'dark sound.' What they do for the most part is create a larger than normal tone chamber (NOT bore as some have mistakenly thought). There are some that market "American Pitch" .......... same problem.
Of course I am more old school. In 1975 there weren't many mouthpieces to chose from and those that were out there were more consistant in their own internal pitch generation (for the most part, and I speak of mouthpieces contemporary with 1975).
Naturally there are many specific issues of compatability such as Lelia's example, B&H 1010 style mouthpieces, German mouthpieces (the size a "C" clarinet mouthpiece), etc.
For me though, my first response to a newer clarinet player who is fortunate enough to have a mouthpiece that allows "SHARP," is to recommend more technique intervention and LISTENING (accompanied by a tuner of course) since this is what will develop a good sound and good pitch. Immediately relying on long barrels and low mouthpieces is a fools paradise.
....................Paul Aviles
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Author: TianL
Date: 2011-09-01 15:39
if you use hard reeds and have to really bite, that will make you play sharp. instruments can definitely be a factor too. for mouthpiece, the M series of vandoren play at 440.
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Author: NBeaty
Date: 2011-09-01 17:46
The M series does NOT necessarily play at 440. The "440 pitch" versions of vandoren mouthpieces are the 13 series, which is available on many of their models in addition to their traditional 442 versions.
If you routinely play very sharp, there are likely several problems that need attention.
1) EAR- you are not likely hearing the correct pitch in your head. Most players get used to the sound and feel of playing sharp and have to make a conscious effort to change their ear to playing AT PITCH.
2) EQUIPMENT- It's possible that playing a lower pitched mouthpiece will make your life easier regarding intonation. However, if item No. 1 (EAR) isn't fixed, it won't make any difference and you'll just bite it up to where you play normally. The E11 clarinet is tuned high with a short barrel (64.5mm). A 66 or 67 will make it be more able to play at pitch.
3) Embouchure\equipment- Since the B45 is crazy open (1.20mm) you're more than likely using reeds that are too hard on a mouthpiece that is too open. This will cause you to bite and the pitch to rise on a mouthpiece that is already "tuned" to 442. The HS* is a more reasonable tip opening but has a very tight facing curve. The HS* is also tuned a bit higher than necessary, but is manageable.
That being said, you should do a few things:
1) If you have an R13 and an E11, play the R13. The barrel is longer and the instrument is likely to be better in tune (relatively).
2) Order a few Vandoren M13 Lyres and M15 (13 series) and try them out with some Vandoren Blue Box No. 3 and 3.5.
3) Be consciously aware of how much pressure your bottom lip\jaw is putting on the reed. If it feels anything more than just a light "cushion" type pressure, you're probably using too much.
4) Practice with a tuner on the stand. You don't have to have it on constantly, because you'll drive yourself crazy. Once you've warmed up a little bit, check some notes (Open G, middle space C, for example). You'll probably have to pull out the barrel just a little bit.
Make sure that every 10-15 minutes you turn the tuner on and check some spots in whatever music or technique you're working on IN CONTEXT. I'll never stop being annoyed when clarinetists tune 2 notes and manipulate them into pitch and ASSUME that everything they play is therefore in-tune. This will allow you to realize that "in the heat of battle" your intonation may be different than when tuning just a few pitches.
5) Watch out for (and don't be one of) those people who says "You just have to listen and match" to play in tune. Yes you do have to do that when you're rehearsing and performing, but using this statement to imply that we should just settle wherever (A442, 446, 450....) as long as we're together is a stretch. Every player should STRIVE to play as closely to 440 (or 442 if that's what you're tuning to) as possible. This is what we should practice, so we should try to keep it if at all possible.
6) Tuning adjustments for intervals and context is a whole other discussion.
7) Be sure that your equipment is flexible enough to play in tune in any given situation. For example:
a) be sure your barrel is short enough that you're not flat when at room temperature. At least make sure it's within 5 cents.
b) be sure that you have enough flexibility in your mouthpiece\reed combination that you can easily manipulate the pitch with your embouchure, but not so much that it is unstable and hard to control.
c) make sure your instrument is in good working order and there aren't any notes that are way out of tune. In other words, make sure if you're going up chormatically (slowly!) that there aren't any notes that go significantly flat or sharp compared to the notes around it. Keeping in mind, 5 cents on a clarinet is still pretty close...
If you have a teacher (assuming they play in tune) try this exercise:
1) You play a note while he\she is holding the tuner away from your view (C in the center of the staff is good). Have them write down how many cents sharp you are.
2) (assuming neither of you are sick) have the teacher play your setup and you hold the tuner. Most likely, he\she will be much lower in pitch than you and will be able to tell what you're doing wrong.
Keeping all this in mind: GOOD LUCK!
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Author: bombus
Date: 2011-09-02 00:21
Thank you everyone for the replies! I'll try some more mouthpieces and try to improve my embouchure.
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