 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: RyanD
Date: 2011-08-31 22:13
Ok so this is a dumb question but should clarinet 1 be louder than 2 and 2 louder than 3. Im asking this because today in advanced band some of the other clarinetist ran infront of me in line to get there music and so i got the third part. My last director said that clarinet 3 should never be louder than clarinet 1 but he didnt say if it was to be the exact same levle of loudnes. Please answer
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Author: tictactux ★2017
Date: 2011-08-31 22:19
A solo may be louder. Other parts (be they 1st, 2nd or 3rd) usually have the same volume unless dynamics on your sheet suggest otherwise.
Key is blending in, not sticking out.
--
Ben
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Author: FDF
Date: 2011-08-31 22:20
Your music will indicate how loud to play. For example: p = play softly, f = play loudly.
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2011-08-31 22:44
And listen to what's going on around you. If you don't have the tune, keep the level down so it can be heard.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: Jack Kissinger
Date: 2011-08-31 22:47
Clarinet 1 is usually has the highest notes. These tend to pop out. Sometimes those playing lower notes need to bring their parts out for the sake of proper balance. Depends on the music. But, if you are playing in octaves, the lower part is almost always the one that should be dominant.
Best regards,
jnk
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Author: johng ★2017
Date: 2011-08-31 23:43
I agree with Jack that often the inner parts need to play a bit louder in order to balance. The challenge of playing 1st is to not overblow or to make shrill those upper register notes. If your section plays together and in tune then there is little need for playing very loudly unless you just want to "grandstand". It is too bad that most band music puts the most difficult parts on the 1st section and the easy stuff on the lower parts since that is how most bands are seated. A clarinet section with great players on all the parts is wonderful to behold.
John Gibson, Founder of JB Linear Music, www.music4woodwinds.com
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Author: RyanD
Date: 2011-08-31 23:48
Thanks for the answers. The parts for the music we are playing are equally hard. My part is just alot lower than everyone elses and in some casses is a little harder than the first part. So i should blend or blend whilst being dominate?
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Author: Katrina
Date: 2011-09-01 00:42
I'd vote for you to blend and support the upper notes. Doesn't mean "louder" per se, but support. Firm and strong. Not dominant.
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Author: sfalexi
Date: 2011-09-01 00:49
In order TO blend, you may have to play a little bit louder than the marked dynamic if playing a lower part. You just have to find what works so that ALL parts are heard and you're not covered up by first clarinet.
Alexi
US Army Japan Band
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Author: RyanD
Date: 2011-09-01 00:56
Thanks again. Its just so confussing because last year i was the only clarinet in freshman band due to an incident where my old director threw a music stand at are section and almost hurt us so the whole working as a team is somewhat new.
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Author: EEBaum
Date: 2011-09-01 01:40
You distribute parts by whomever gets in line first? That's messed up.
You will have to put a little more "oomph" into a third part than a first to get to the same volume, due to the range the parts are typcially written in.
In an ideal situation, the first chair first will be ever so slightly louder than the person sitting below him, and so on down the line. However, it is also an option for the first chair second and the first chair third to also be louder than the person sitting above them, to improve the audibility of their individual parts.
-Alex
www.mostlydifferent.com
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Author: RyanD
Date: 2011-09-01 02:03
I didnt clarify. We only have these parts untill we take our playing test and since school just started its ganna be this way for a while.
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Author: kdk
Date: 2011-09-01 02:25
Ryan, this is really a question the conductor needs to answer as he works to create the band's sound. It often depends on the music itself. One very popular approach when the music is chordal - chorale-like in style - is to balance from the bottom - the higher pitches will tend to sound louder, so many conductors want the bottom voices in a chordal texture to be a little louder to give the overall section sound depth. Some musical contexts may need exactly the opposite, as in a texture involving a melody on top with a separate accompaniment figure beneath it. It's something the conductor needs to decide and communicate to the players.
Karl
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Author: Lelia Loban ★2017
Date: 2011-09-01 13:48
RyanD wrote,
>> My last director said that clarinet 3 should never be louder than clarinet 1 but he didnt say if it was to be the exact same levle of loudnes.>>
[and later in a different message...]
>Its just so confussing because last year i was the only clarinet in freshman band due to an incident where my old director threw a music stand at are section and almost hurt us so the whole working as a team is somewhat new.
>
If the director who said clarinet 3 should never be louder than clarinet 1 is the same director who threw the music stand at your section (!), then I'd definitely recommend talking with the *new* director -- about balance and anything else that arises. And good riddance to the director who threw the stand.
Lelia
http://www.scoreexchange.com/profiles/Lelia_Loban
To hear the audio, click on the "Scorch Plug-In" box above the score.
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Author: Ken Shaw ★2017
Date: 2011-09-01 14:29
Clarinet 2 and 3 players need to be aware of clarinet 1 and fit beneath it. Your role is to support the clarinet 1 player and help him/her sound good. Ideally, the three parts should merge into a single composite sound. This is in many ways more difficult than playing clarinet 1, because you must listen harder.
The two basic rules of ensemble playing are:
1. At pp, you should not be able to hear yourself.
2. At ff, you should still be able to hear everyone else.
Ken Shaw
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Author: kdk
Date: 2011-09-01 14:39
RyanD wrote:
> Thanks again. Its just so confussing because last year i was
> the only clarinet in freshman band due to an incident where my
> old director threw a music stand at are section and almost hurt
> us so the whole working as a team is somewhat new.
Ryan, this man sounds like someone with anger management issues and maybe he shouldn't be teaching in a school music program at all (or maybe anywhere). But don't necessarily confuse his personal shortcomings as a teacher with musical ignorance. They don't always go hand-in-hand. I've known a number of very gifted musicians who, sadly, had no patience with the students they were hired to teach and, reprehensibly, sometimes lost their tempers and kicked or threw things. Their inability to control their tantrums and even their more dangerous impulses made them terrible teachers despite the musical insight they could have given their students.
That said, anyone who says "never" in connection with musical decisions is either being careless with words or doesn't know what he's talking about. As I suggested in my last post, balance is context-dependent - it matters what each part is supposed to be contributing to the overall effect. Often you can make a pretty well educated decision about it yourself from where you sit in the group, but other times the conductor is the only one with enough distance between himself and the players to judge the sound being produced. So the only rule would be to do what the conductor asks and hope he knows what he's doing.
Karl
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Author: David Spiegelthal ★2017
Date: 2011-09-01 18:04
Most importantly (though off-topic), the BASS clarinet should be louder than everyone else combined, projecting through and above the entire band or orchestra with its rich, singing voice.
Just my opinion.
HAH!
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Author: RyanD
Date: 2011-09-01 20:58
Thanks for all the help. Im going to take the advice to support my part and make the clarinet 1 person sound good. Now i have another question . There are 4 clarinets in my band and about 20 trumpets. My director wont tell the trumpets to be louder but yells at us for not playing as loud as them. Last year being the only clarinet in my band I was told to play louder than all the other sections combined so i have the abbillity to do so with a good sound. The question is how do i relive head pressure when pressure when doing so.
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Author: kdk
Date: 2011-09-01 21:51
Do you mean "head pressure" literally (discomfort from blowing so hard), or do you mean emotional pressure from the band director?
Karl
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Author: RyanD
Date: 2011-09-01 23:05
Yeah. Sorry about the double pressure im using my phone and sometimes it does weird things. So just to specify i mean pain like your face goes red and the like
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Author: tictactux ★2017
Date: 2011-09-02 06:55
You're not gonna win against other sections without sacrificing your tone, your eardrums, your lungs even.
If you must be heard against all the other players, then the other players must turn their volume down, simple as that.
A band must be able to get a full thick sound even at pp.
--
Ben
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Author: RyanD
Date: 2011-09-02 10:09
Tictactux. I already know these sacrafices. Sadly if we dont play louder we get screamed at and then taken to the back room and lectured about how if we dont play louder he will kick us out of advanced band which we know is an empty threat because theres no other good clarinetist in the school but nontheless it hurts.
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Author: tictactux ★2017
Date: 2011-09-02 10:50
A clarinet simply can't be louder than so much. It's like asking your director to jump over an eight foot fence. (appers to be an, uhm, interesting person, btw)
An uncooperative trumpet can easily outblare three or four clarinets. So 4 clarinets vs 20 small brass is simply a hopeless endeavour unless the other registers restrain themselves a bit.
Your options are: get a bagpipe instead, or ditch that band. What good is it if nobody can hear you anyway?
--
Ben
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Author: justme
Date: 2011-09-02 11:09
David Spiegelthal said: " Most importantly (though off-topic), the BASS clarinet should be louder than everyone else combined, projecting through and above the entire band or orchestra with its rich, singing voice.
Just my opinion.
HAH!"
Shhhhhhh...... We'll have Ed Palanker in here next! ![[hot]](http://test.woodwind.org/clarinet/BBoard/smileys/hot.gif) ![[whoa]](http://test.woodwind.org/clarinet/BBoard/smileys/smilie10.gif)
"A critic is like a eunuch: he knows exactly how it ought to be done."
CLARINET, n.
An instrument of torture operated by a person with cotton in his ears. There are two instruments that are worse than a clarinet -- two clarinets
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Author: RyanD
Date: 2011-09-02 11:36
Lol. I like the bag pipe idea it reminds me of this one time that while i was walking on stage. My inatrument just split it half while i was walking and most of the keys fell off. I had to use a no name cheap plastic one that sounded like a bagpipe. It was really bad because it was competition day and i was the only clarinet. We were also playing air for band which if you didnt know is extremly clarinet heavy and is filled with solos so it sounded like an Irish melody.
But i cannot quit band because.i want to be a music teacher when im an adult.
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Author: Lelia Loban ★2017
Date: 2011-09-02 12:25
>> But i cannot quit band because.i want to be a music teacher when im an adult.
>>
Aha! You're almost an adult now, so maybe you could get a head start on teaching music. Your band needs more clarinets so you won't have to blow until your nose bleeds to compete with those trumpets. I'll bet you know kids who've quit but kept their clarinets, or who still play but not well enough to get into advanced band. Do you have time to set up an extracurricular clarinet workshop? If you could run it and keep it organized, maybe you could crash the brassholes' party.
(In passing .... Why is that band so overbalanced with brass? Who let so many trumpets in?)
Lelia
http://www.scoreexchange.com/profiles/Lelia_Loban
To hear the audio, click on the "Scorch Plug-In" box above the score.
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Author: Arnoldstang
Date: 2011-09-02 16:45
There is a pyramid approach to dividing up the number of clarinetists you have in the band. The top of the pyramid clar 1 has few players, clar 2 more clar 3 most. This helps create a natural balance.
Even in the finest ensembles you have different preferences as to how much support the secondary parts should give. The second and third players(one per stand) have to satisfy the lead players. In a band situation it becomes more complicated as you have many people per position(2nd or 3rd part) I never feel comfortable in band situations with constantly playing unison with stand mates.
I would ask this question.......Should there be one dominant player for the 2nd clarinet section and one for the 3rd clarinet section? To me this would discourage everyone playing independently(everyone for themselves)
Freelance woodwind performer
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Author: RyanD
Date: 2011-09-02 20:49
To lelia and arnold. Theres only 5 clarinets in the school and 4 are in advanced band so we all have to be the dominate player on are parts. Also if you read earlier in this thread no one else wants to play clarinet because of an incident where are last director which is my current directors best friend through a music stand at are section. So unfortunaly there is no way to get more clarinets in our band.
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Author: Ken Shaw ★2017
Date: 2011-09-02 22:54
Ryan -
Some problems have no solution, and you have posed one. No high school choir can be balanced if, as so often happens, it has 10 sopranos, 25 altos, 3 tenors and 5 basses. Even more so, no high school band can be balanced when it has 4 clarinets and 20 trumpets, because just one trumpet can drown out all 4 clarinets, and most high school trumpet players (like most high school clarinetists) have just two volume levels -- silent and as loud as possible.
This is a situation where you just grit your teeth, play as well as you can, and wait for college.
That said, you can probably play louder than you think, using the swab-up-the-bell exercise that I've described many times.
Stuff a cotton swab up the bell, finger middle B (with the register key open), take plenty of mouthpiece, loosen your embouchure and blow like the wind. You'll get a weak 4th space Eb. Blow harder and harder until you get a decent volume.
Then find the Bb above. You do this by raising the back of your tongue and lowering the tip, lowering your jaw slightly and raising your soft palate. It's easier to do than to describe.
Then find the Eb, G and Bb and play bugle calls.
When you pull the swab out and play, you'll suddenly find that you're three times louder than before. This comes from using less embouchure pressure and more air. By doing the exercise many times, you'll get the feel of opening up and letting go.
Good luck, and hang in there. This too shall pass.
Ken Shaw
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Author: Jack Kissinger
Date: 2011-09-02 23:54
I don't know, Ryan. You're beginning to strain credibility. Last year, you were the only clarinet player in the whole band? And the music director told you to play louder than everyone else combined? And took you into a back room to scream at you when you didn't play loud enough? And threw a music stand at the band? And didn't hit anyone from a range of, what, three feet? (Sounds to me like the definition of perfect pitch -- a music stand into the clarinet section at a distance of three feet without hitting anything. (Or did he actually maybe just bump his music stand, knocking it over?) And, you were walking across the stage and your clarinet just split in half and most of the keys fell off? What were you playing, a Lyons? This whole thing is beginning to sound like a big troll to me.
Anyone else?
jnk
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Author: RyanD
Date: 2011-09-03 00:38
Im not a troll all of this stuff seriously happend. The music stand didnt hit us cause it hit the wall next to us and i had just greased my corcks in a hurry becayse i had to be on stage soon and the lower half just feel and the pieces feel off they later had to be bent back into shape. And he didnt scream at me in the back room he yelled at me in the band room and then brought me to the band room about not playing as loud as a full clarinet section could be. I dont appreciate being called a troll when i just come to ask for help from professionals. To all you people that gave me nice answers and have good in your hearts i thank you. And to you accussing me of being a troll i say good day.
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Author: Jack Kissinger
Date: 2011-09-03 03:01
Just for the record, I didn't call you a troll. I called this thread a troll... and nothing you've said has changed my mind about that. I suspect you are misunderstanding my use of the word. It has nothing to do with Frodo or Harry Potter.
But this is a direct quote from one of your earlier posts: "Sadly if we dont play louder we get screamed at and then taken to the back room and lectured about how if we dont play louder he will kick us out of advanced band..."
Post Edited (2011-09-03 03:21)
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Author: RyanD
Date: 2011-09-03 14:20
I swear everthing i have said has been truthful. I dont know why big city people are always so suspicious about everything.
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Author: Ed Palanker
Date: 2011-09-03 16:55
I've found some of the comments on this post very amusing. Of course Dave Speigelthal is right, the bass clarinet, with it's beautiful singing tone, should always dominate. :-)
Seriously, I've never heard of a band director seating the band by allowing students to run up and take the parts they want. With that said, all sections need to be equal volume when playing together. The high parts will always be heard above everything else if the balance is equal because they are higher. Of course when there's a solo passage, or the orchestration is to thick or heavy, the conductor needs to balance it by having the lower or inner voices play softer. I depends of the passage. Sometimes an inner voice needs to dominate, that's the responsibility of the conductor, to balance the group. Think of it as if it were a clarinet trio or quartet. if everyone is balanced it will sound correct, if an inner voice plays louder than the top voice it will become unbalanced unless they have the moving or prominent part, in which case they may have to play a bit louder or the others play softer. ESP eddiesclarinet.com
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Author: RyanD
Date: 2011-09-03 20:06
Thanks for the advice ED. I will rember this and apply it during band.
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Author: RyanD
Date: 2011-09-03 21:50
Thank you everyone including mark. All my questions regarding balance in a wind ensemble habe been answered. This thread is ready to die.
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Author: JamesOrlandoGarcia
Date: 2011-09-05 06:58
For balance, you need to have more 2nd and 3rd clarinet sound. If I had a section of nineteen players, I'd have 1 eb, 4 first, 6 second, and 8 third.
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Author: LKKlarinet
Date: 2011-09-05 08:49
Read and listen, know your music, work and try with your ensemble and conductor. It is a mental and hearty experience with lots of fun, do not gave yourself a simple mechanical answer.
LKKlarinet
Borbeck V12 Bob Harrison S-1Buffet
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