 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: EEBaum
Date: 2011-08-30 00:12
"some of the board members were disappointed that so many [members of his ethnic group] had been at my concert and were worried that they’d be around more often."
Wow, if that's true, that's some seriously nasty **** right there. Nuke that orchestra from orbit, it's the only way to be sure.
(full disclosure: I'm of the opinion that the bulk of the orchestral world should be swept clean and given a fresh start, so take me with a grain of salt)
-Alex
www.mostlydifferent.com
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Author: Katrina
Date: 2011-08-30 03:06
Sadly, Alex, it's the "monied class" which runs the orchestras and I'm sad to say if it weren't for the support of these "generous donors" that we wouldn't have many orchestras at all...In other words, tossing 'em all out and giving a fresh start wouldn't have a snowball's chance of...
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Author: BobD
Date: 2011-08-30 11:08
Do we really need this kind of stuff here?
Bob Draznik
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Author: Mark Charette
Date: 2011-08-30 11:11
BobD wrote:
> Do we really need this kind of stuff here?
>
Most certainly. It has a direct relationship to making music, especially if you're the one on the short end of the stick.
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Author: cigleris
Date: 2011-08-30 11:32
I read this blog with disgust. I have never come across this point of view here in England. It sounds like there needs to be a real shake up in the US. These people need to realise its the quality of the candidate rather than their ethnic background. I would put my neck out and say that the big institutions would not welcome any of those views that were described in this post.
Peter Cigleris
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Author: tictactux ★2017
Date: 2011-08-30 11:40
I wouldn't be so sure about my own country... ![[frown]](http://test.woodwind.org/clarinet/BBoard/smileys/smilie2.gif)
(not the orchestra "industry" per se, but as a general attitude towards certain aliens)
--
Ben
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Author: Mark Charette
Date: 2011-08-30 12:49
I never heard of this in my country, either, until now. Replace the word "black" with "Pakistani" or "Roma" or "Turk" and tell me how'd they fare in the EU if they were a new conductor looking for a job.
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Author: Lelia Loban ★2017
Date: 2011-08-30 13:01
Mark Charette wrote about racism in orchestra hiring,
>> It has a direct relationship to making music, especially if you're the one on the short end of the stick.
>>
Thank you for that. This thread reminds me of the late 1950s, when the first African American child joined my grammar school band. Most residents of the newly-built neighborhood of tract houses didn't realize the builder had segregation covenants in place, until baseball great Willie McCovey, then first base for the San Francisco Giants, tried to buy a house there and got turned down because of race. As a Little League fanatic, I heard the news from a baseball-playing classmate. We and a lot of our friends went roaring home and complained to our parents. The parents raised a stink with the builder, who was mightily surprised at that reaction but did delete the covenant.
By then, Willie McCovey had bought a house elsewhere, but soon a few non-white families did start to move in. Well, not so fast with the triumphalism, we soon learned, because when that first 10-year-old African American boy joined the band, the director assigned him to learn ... the drums, of course, because he'd have "natural rhythm." Yeesh.
And today .... Still a lot of killer ape genes in the human race.
Lelia
http://www.scoreexchange.com/profiles/Lelia_Loban
To hear the audio, click on the "Scorch Plug-In" box above the score.
Post Edited (2011-08-30 13:02)
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Author: kdk
Date: 2011-08-30 15:22
I'm not sure I understand the leap from the facts surrounding these incidents to describing these boards as peopled by "godless, right-wing rascist bastards who are only one step removed from the ideology of the National Socialist Party." This doesn't seem, from what I know of the right wing, to be the most likely mix of traits they'd represent and the description seems more emotional than rational. Reactionary, bigoted, white-elitist, yes. Godless and Socialist? Those are names usually slung at the left by the political right.
Nonetheless, such boards need to be exposed and investigated by their local news media. He doesn't name the orchestras or the geographical areas involved, but I'm not sure this could go on for very long in a city and an orchestra with a full-time season, mostly because (I think, maybe naively) some newspaper critic would call them on it.
I wonder, too, whether by "non-European" he means "of non-European descent" or simply that you need to have an accent to get a job conducting an American orchestra. If the latter, I think that has been largely overcome. In either case, what he really means seems to be "minority" or "non-white," in which case he may be blunting his own point by shying away from the racial terms that so clearly characterize the issue for him.
Karl
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Author: Mark Charette
Date: 2011-08-30 15:33
kdk quoted:
> "godless,
>
I continue to wonder why "godless" is considered to be a perjorative ... But then again, because of that I'll never be able to run for public office and win.
But you're right, the juxtaposition of all those words in your longer quote most certainly are ... strange ... at best.
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Author: LarryBocaner ★2017
Date: 2011-08-30 16:32
Interesting story about Sergiu Commisiona when he interviewed to be music director of the Ulster Orchestra: He was asked by a board member if he were of the Protestant or of the Catholic faith. Commisiona replied: "Actually neither -- I'm Jewish!" I'm told the entire board erupted in delight.
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Author: EEBaum
Date: 2011-08-31 06:19
Katrina:
If it means getting the orchestras out of the hands of the monied class, I'll gladly accept the collateral damage. Racial bastardry aside, the dominance of moniedness, the donor-teat-sucking dependency of classical music has done much to cement its place as a pit of mediocrity, a subservient toy to the bluehairs rather than a vibrant scene.
It cements a paradigm of "you give us money to make this music, then you get to say what music we do", rather than "we provide awesome music, and people who appreciate it give us money to encourage its continued existence". It works like lobbyists in Washington, and it is a foul, wretched situation that should be killed with fire.
If the donor-dominated system of classical music were somehow abolished today, it would indeed suck in the short term as funding dried up (but, hell, that's happening anyways). However, I think that, in the long term, it would do much to restore the integrity and vitality of the musical scene and rekindle public interest. It may not regain the sheer numbers, but what is there, I think, may very well be much more worthwhile.
-Alex
www.mostlydifferent.com
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Author: EEBaum
Date: 2011-08-31 16:41
I know that money is everywhere, but there are different mechanisms for dealing with money. There is money that is given because someone appreciates what someone is doing, and there is money that is given because someone wants a say in what someone is doing. Two very different paradigms in donor-based enterprises.
-Alex
www.mostlydifferent.com
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Author: MarlboroughMan
Date: 2011-08-31 17:38
History pretty clearly shows that virtually all of the orchestral repertoire was funded by the 'monied class'. And most of them promoted artists that expressed what they wanted. That's why King Ludwig funded Wagner, and that's why Haydn wrote so many symphonies and string quartets--Prince Esterhazy wanted them. The examples could go on until we'd exhausted all the patrons of the arts in music history.
Class warfare from classical musicians is kinda silly--best not to saw when the only branch you can reach is under you. If you think interested donors are the problem, remeber that they funded the institution in the first place, along with the repertoire.
Anyhow, there's honor and dignity in amateur performance too. If you don't want to take rich peoples' money, you don't have to. Then your free to play what you want.
The OP is something altogether different, though. Bigotry knows no class boundary, and it's sad that it's still out there. Maybe someday we'll all be able to see beyond skin or hair color (even if it's 'swarthy' or 'blue'). Better yet, maybe we should just shut our eyes every now and then and listen to the music instead.
Eric
******************************
The Jazz Clarinet
http://thejazzclarinet.blogspot.com/
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Author: clarinetist04
Date: 2011-09-02 03:16
It is clear that we need to separate the author's political beliefs and his intertwining them with the true crime, which is the racism of these boards.
I don't know the last time that I saw a black conductor. I disagree with his characterization of these boards as heartless, godless, ... , Republicans (I know several heartless, godless musically and monetarily inclined Democrats as well - tongue-in-cheek) however his observation of the racial disparity in the conductor fraternity seems at least somewhat accurate.
But honestly, the music industry is one of the oddest gems in the whole industrial workforce. Quality doesn't always get a musician the job, as we all know. There's politics at play, tenure, musician personal opinions and other subjective factors that just don't exist in other occupations. In the end, there's too many musicians that I know regardless of race or ethnicity that didn't get a job they deserved in an ensemble - for that reason I have a hard time setting aside special sympathy for this man. Go out and do something about it...that's about all I have to say. I admire Paul Freeman and Henry Lewis as major black players in the conducting industry and encourage those who have issue with this sentiment (we all should but it's those who are vehement about it) to look to these and other strong musicians as models in an effort to combat bigotry against all races of any color, whether it be white, black, yellow, red or otherwise.
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Author: kdk
Date: 2011-09-02 04:49
clarinetist04 wrote:
> ...I admire Paul Freeman and
> Henry Lewis as major black players in the conducting industry
To which you might add Andre Raphel, music director of the Wheeling Symphony and former assistant conductor of the Philadelphia Orchestra.
Karl
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Author: kdk
Date: 2011-09-02 05:02
It's really very hard to react rationally to this blog entry for many reasons. Much as many of us would unequivocally support the author's anti-bigotry argument, we really have no no idea, since the "young colleague" isn't named and we may know nothing about him musically if we did know who he (or she) is, about the person's musical qualifications. The world is full of people in all professions who have been passed over in competitive job searches and many of them are completely convinced that there was some kind of prejudice or bias responsible.
I don't want to trivialize this - the basic point that African Americans may be under-represented among the ranks of American symphony orchestra conductors because of deliberate sabotage on the part of bigoted orchestra boards is an important one to consider. This particular blog doesn't by itself establish the case.
Karl
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Author: JEG ★2017
Date: 2011-09-02 23:25
Of course, the "young colleague" wasn't named. If the blogger mentioned his name his career would most likely be over immediately. Many orchestras would not want to hire an "uppity" person like that. I understand the point of being unfairly passed over, but I don't think we need to add racism to the usual mix of skill, luck, politics, and general subjective judgement that is usually part of the usual audition process. And it was stated that some board members didn't like the fact that so many members of the colleague's ethnic group showed up at the concert and were concerned that they might come back. In this age of dwindling audiences it seems absurd that an orchestra board would be concerned about people showing up!
Yes, this is an unpleasant topic for most of us who have the privelege of ignoring the continued existence of racism. And it's difficult to judge the extent of it in the hiring process, no matter who you are. And we would all prefer to talk only about which clarinet is better, which reeds work, mouthpieces and ligatures.
But it is relevant, though, when you take into account stories of promising African American musicians whose only outlet was jazz, because classical was closed to them. Of course, it was good for jazz, but the fact is they had no place else to go. Things have changed, but as the blog shows, there's a lot still to be done.
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Author: BobD
Date: 2011-09-03 12:13
Classical music per se was never closed to those of black color in America,however, it may be true that directing an orchestra could have been. A review of black culture in America can reveal the names of many classical musicians.
Bob Draznik
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Author: rmk54
Date: 2011-09-03 13:05
FWIW:
When Mr. Eddins auditioned to be music director of our orchestra, he informed our board that if they gave him the job we would have to build him a new hall (at the cost of $80-100 million).
You may draw your own conclusions why he was not offered the position.
That being said, Mr. Eddins was one of the most talented conductors I have ever worked with. I was sorry we couldn't hire him.
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